From Don at donhensley.com  Tue May  1 00:10:44 2007
From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:10:44 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] projectors for an ad campaign
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704301947v70ba40dcpef0309e7d51a22bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120704281028s40171f17k10fab44b09f0cd1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<200704301943.07322.Don@donhensley.com>
	<3922422b0704301947v70ba40dcpef0309e7d51a22bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200704302110.44408.Don@donhensley.com>


The only thing about that is I don't know just how much light a digital 
projector can pump out.

Think about it, the equation here is like illuminating a building wall with a 
flash light, or a flood light. They will both do it but the effective light 
from the flash light will most likely not be observable to the human eye, if 
spread over much area and distance.

I'm not familiar enough with the digital projectors to be able to say much, 
except that I know the ones I have seen (like at presentations, etc.) would 
never work... more like the flashlight, if you see what I mean. But as I said 
for all I know they make the digital versions in major big high lumen output 
versions.

I know I would be skeptical of a old style movie projector making a very 
brilliant display if used on a really large building... it too would be more 
on the flashlight end (just a lot brighter then any digital unit I know 
about) But as I said, my knowledge of digital units is very small.

And do they make digital projectors for movies? I thought that was mostly, if 
not all, more like a slide projector, or over head projector.

Don.
***************************** 
 On Monday 30 April 2007 07:47 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote:
We don't need a dedicated one for this. How about we borrow one from a
university, camera club, store, friend, etc? We could probably even
rent one. I'm not talking about a old school film one, I'm talking
about a nice digital projector that they use for like powerpoints or
cheap movies.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 4/30/07, Don Hensley <Don at donhensley.com> wrote:
> If you can find one anymore, I suspect a thrift store would almost give you
> the thing - 5 - 10 bucks, but at 10 bucks it better be in real good shape.
> Anyway that would be my opine.
>
> Of course it is also barely possible that at least some of them have become
> 'collectibles'...
>
> As to the lens to cover what you want, and if the projector would be bright
> enough, you would just have to experiment. But any one in a camera club or
> class, (even digital uses a lens) should be able to help you right out on
> these issues.
>
> Or just try one out, if you can find one. Some one you know, probably has
> parents or grand parents that no doubt have one in storage some place. They
> were the tech of the day, back when. I'd think they'd just give it to you.
>
> Don.
>  ***********************
>  On Monday 30 April 2007 07:30 pm, rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
> I am very near Fenway Stadium in Boston, and right in front of my
> building there is a nice building.. how much could it cost one of this
> projectors with enough lens?
> BinaryFreedom is going to start selling t-shirts soon with those funs
> we plan in buying things like this to me our activism more visible.
>
> Chris F.
>
> Don Hensley wrote:
> > If it was me, I'd just dump my video to film, like super 8, or 16 mm (70
> > mm would be perfect, but way to expensive both for film and the
> > projector).
> >
> > Then any old home movie projector  --the thrift stores no doubt still
> > have some around, I have a few some place myself --like me relics of
> > another time...
> >
> > Anyway you could really cover a large building that way, so long as the
> > lens would focus it (you could change the lens if you needed to).  The
> > darker the night the better, and that's the rub, until you are into
> > something like a 'drive in movie' projector you are limited by the bulb
> > in the projector. Still it could be done to good effect with some
> > patience for a moonless night and not too bright a set of street lamps.
> >
> > We have done large drawings this way. Project the drawing on a building
> > and then trace it for later painting.
> >
> > Don.
> >  *********************************************
> >  On Monday 30 April 2007 04:21 pm, rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
> > I do like the projector idea.. what type of projector is needed for this?
> > hmmm this brings a lot of ideas... */puts evil smile */
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> --
> GNU/Linux is the future.
> Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
> Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

_______________________________________________
Advocate mailing list
Advocate at badvista.org
http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

-- 
GNU/Linux is the future.
Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org


From gregory at civicactions.com  Tue May  1 01:10:13 2007
From: gregory at civicactions.com (Gregory Heller)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 01:10:13 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] projectors for an ad campaign
In-Reply-To: <200704302110.44408.Don@donhensley.com>
References: <b35fa3120704281028s40171f17k10fab44b09f0cd1f@mail.gmail.com>	<200704301943.07322.Don@donhensley.com>	<3922422b0704301947v70ba40dcpef0309e7d51a22bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<200704302110.44408.Don@donhensley.com>
Message-ID: <4636CBB5.40807@civicactions.com>

see these guys http://graffitiresearchlab.com/?page_id=32#video

there are a bunch of folks in NY who have done some stuff like this with
very powerful projectors.

I did it with a mediocre projector at night on the apple store in soho
on oct 3

Don Hensley wrote:
> The only thing about that is I don't know just how much light a digital 
> projector can pump out.
>
> Think about it, the equation here is like illuminating a building wall with a 
> flash light, or a flood light. They will both do it but the effective light 
> from the flash light will most likely not be observable to the human eye, if 
> spread over much area and distance.
>
> I'm not familiar enough with the digital projectors to be able to say much, 
> except that I know the ones I have seen (like at presentations, etc.) would 
> never work... more like the flashlight, if you see what I mean. But as I said 
> for all I know they make the digital versions in major big high lumen output 
> versions.
>
> I know I would be skeptical of a old style movie projector making a very 
> brilliant display if used on a really large building... it too would be more 
> on the flashlight end (just a lot brighter then any digital unit I know 
> about) But as I said, my knowledge of digital units is very small.
>
> And do they make digital projectors for movies? I thought that was mostly, if 
> not all, more like a slide projector, or over head projector.
>
> Don.
> ***************************** 
>  On Monday 30 April 2007 07:47 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote:
> We don't need a dedicated one for this. How about we borrow one from a
> university, camera club, store, friend, etc? We could probably even
> rent one. I'm not talking about a old school film one, I'm talking
> about a nice digital projector that they use for like powerpoints or
> cheap movies.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 4/30/07, Don Hensley <Don at donhensley.com> wrote:
>   
>> If you can find one anymore, I suspect a thrift store would almost give you
>> the thing - 5 - 10 bucks, but at 10 bucks it better be in real good shape.
>> Anyway that would be my opine.
>>
>> Of course it is also barely possible that at least some of them have become
>> 'collectibles'...
>>
>> As to the lens to cover what you want, and if the projector would be bright
>> enough, you would just have to experiment. But any one in a camera club or
>> class, (even digital uses a lens) should be able to help you right out on
>> these issues.
>>
>> Or just try one out, if you can find one. Some one you know, probably has
>> parents or grand parents that no doubt have one in storage some place. They
>> were the tech of the day, back when. I'd think they'd just give it to you.
>>
>> Don.
>>  ***********************
>>  On Monday 30 April 2007 07:30 pm, rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
>> I am very near Fenway Stadium in Boston, and right in front of my
>> building there is a nice building.. how much could it cost one of this
>> projectors with enough lens?
>> BinaryFreedom is going to start selling t-shirts soon with those funs
>> we plan in buying things like this to me our activism more visible.
>>
>> Chris F.
>>
>> Don Hensley wrote:
>>     
>>> If it was me, I'd just dump my video to film, like super 8, or 16 mm (70
>>> mm would be perfect, but way to expensive both for film and the
>>> projector).
>>>
>>> Then any old home movie projector  --the thrift stores no doubt still
>>> have some around, I have a few some place myself --like me relics of
>>> another time...
>>>
>>> Anyway you could really cover a large building that way, so long as the
>>> lens would focus it (you could change the lens if you needed to).  The
>>> darker the night the better, and that's the rub, until you are into
>>> something like a 'drive in movie' projector you are limited by the bulb
>>> in the projector. Still it could be done to good effect with some
>>> patience for a moonless night and not too bright a set of street lamps.
>>>
>>> We have done large drawings this way. Project the drawing on a building
>>> and then trace it for later painting.
>>>
>>> Don.
>>>  *********************************************
>>>  On Monday 30 April 2007 04:21 pm, rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
>>> I do like the projector idea.. what type of projector is needed for this?
>>> hmmm this brings a lot of ideas... */puts evil smile */
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>> --
>> GNU/Linux is the future.
>> Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
>> Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>   

-- 
----
Gregory Heller
AIM/SKYPE: GregoryHeller
http://www.CivicActions.com

Changing the world one node at a time!

The content of this email message is licensed under a  Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License, Some Rights Reserved. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/




From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Tue May  1 01:52:41 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 01:52:41 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] projectors for an ad campaign
In-Reply-To: <4636CBB5.40807@civicactions.com>
References: <b35fa3120704281028s40171f17k10fab44b09f0cd1f@mail.gmail.com>	<200704301943.07322.Don@donhensley.com>	<3922422b0704301947v70ba40dcpef0309e7d51a22bf@mail.gmail.com>	<200704302110.44408.Don@donhensley.com>
	<4636CBB5.40807@civicactions.com>
Message-ID: <4636D5A9.6060906@binaryfreedom.info>

Yes I remember I seen this guys at HOPE last year,
very good point, BTW can you tell me the name and brand of the projector 
you used?
did you rent it? looks like you know about the topic can you tell me a 
cheap place to buy one like it or similar?

Thanks
Chris Fernandez
BinaryFreedom founder


Gregory Heller wrote:
> see these guys http://graffitiresearchlab.com/?page_id=32#video
>
> there are a bunch of folks in NY who have done some stuff like this with
> very powerful projectors.
>
> I did it with a mediocre projector at night on the apple store in soho
> on oct 3
>
> Don Hensley wrote:
>   
>> The only thing about that is I don't know just how much light a digital 
>> projector can pump out.
>>
>> Think about it, the equation here is like illuminating a building wall with a 
>> flash light, or a flood light. They will both do it but the effective light 
>> from the flash light will most likely not be observable to the human eye, if 
>> spread over much area and distance.
>>
>> I'm not familiar enough with the digital projectors to be able to say much, 
>> except that I know the ones I have seen (like at presentations, etc.) would 
>> never work... more like the flashlight, if you see what I mean. But as I said 
>> for all I know they make the digital versions in major big high lumen output 
>> versions.
>>
>> I know I would be skeptical of a old style movie projector making a very 
>> brilliant display if used on a really large building... it too would be more 
>> on the flashlight end (just a lot brighter then any digital unit I know 
>> about) But as I said, my knowledge of digital units is very small.
>>
>> And do they make digital projectors for movies? I thought that was mostly, if 
>> not all, more like a slide projector, or over head projector.
>>
>> Don.
>> ***************************** 
>>  On Monday 30 April 2007 07:47 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote:
>> We don't need a dedicated one for this. How about we borrow one from a
>> university, camera club, store, friend, etc? We could probably even
>> rent one. I'm not talking about a old school film one, I'm talking
>> about a nice digital projector that they use for like powerpoints or
>> cheap movies.
>> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>>
>> On 4/30/07, Don Hensley <Don at donhensley.com> wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> If you can find one anymore, I suspect a thrift store would almost give you
>>> the thing - 5 - 10 bucks, but at 10 bucks it better be in real good shape.
>>> Anyway that would be my opine.
>>>
>>> Of course it is also barely possible that at least some of them have become
>>> 'collectibles'...
>>>
>>> As to the lens to cover what you want, and if the projector would be bright
>>> enough, you would just have to experiment. But any one in a camera club or
>>> class, (even digital uses a lens) should be able to help you right out on
>>> these issues.
>>>
>>> Or just try one out, if you can find one. Some one you know, probably has
>>> parents or grand parents that no doubt have one in storage some place. They
>>> were the tech of the day, back when. I'd think they'd just give it to you.
>>>
>>> Don.
>>>  ***********************
>>>  On Monday 30 April 2007 07:30 pm, rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
>>> I am very near Fenway Stadium in Boston, and right in front of my
>>> building there is a nice building.. how much could it cost one of this
>>> projectors with enough lens?
>>> BinaryFreedom is going to start selling t-shirts soon with those funs
>>> we plan in buying things like this to me our activism more visible.
>>>
>>> Chris F.
>>>
>>> Don Hensley wrote:
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> If it was me, I'd just dump my video to film, like super 8, or 16 mm (70
>>>> mm would be perfect, but way to expensive both for film and the
>>>> projector).
>>>>
>>>> Then any old home movie projector  --the thrift stores no doubt still
>>>> have some around, I have a few some place myself --like me relics of
>>>> another time...
>>>>
>>>> Anyway you could really cover a large building that way, so long as the
>>>> lens would focus it (you could change the lens if you needed to).  The
>>>> darker the night the better, and that's the rub, until you are into
>>>> something like a 'drive in movie' projector you are limited by the bulb
>>>> in the projector. Still it could be done to good effect with some
>>>> patience for a moonless night and not too bright a set of street lamps.
>>>>
>>>> We have done large drawings this way. Project the drawing on a building
>>>> and then trace it for later painting.
>>>>
>>>> Don.
>>>>  *********************************************
>>>>  On Monday 30 April 2007 04:21 pm, rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
>>>> I do like the projector idea.. what type of projector is needed for this?
>>>> hmmm this brings a lot of ideas... */puts evil smile */
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Advocate mailing list
>>> Advocate at badvista.org
>>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>>
>>> --
>>> GNU/Linux is the future.
>>> Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
>>> Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Advocate mailing list
>>> Advocate at badvista.org
>>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>>     
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>>   
>>     
>
>   



From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 02:34:31 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:34:31 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea
In-Reply-To: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <b35fa3120704281028s40171f17k10fab44b09f0cd1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <34368.203.120.68.72.1178001271.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know
> that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista,
> specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable?
>
> Jacob


You mean this campaign is created just to attack Windows Vista thats all?

Lam YongXian
Adolf AT www.adolflam.com



From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 03:58:41 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 15:58:41 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners
In-Reply-To: <200704292037.06021.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
References: <200704292037.06021.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <47975.203.120.68.72.1178006321.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> On Friday 27 April 2007 22:12:36 Don Hensley wrote:
>>
>> Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually
>> have a
>> Vista box up and running?
>>
>> One of the real problems I have, is that as all my systems are GNU/Linux
>> (I
>> left Windows behind quite some time ago), I really am hard pressed to
>> actually get into technical problems with Vista.
>>
>> I can read what information is available, and I can see the impossible
> problem
>> presented in the "If you can't open it, you don't own it" aspect of any
>> proprietary software.
>>
>> And the underling problems with DRM are apparent as a simple exercise in
>> logic.
>>
>> The problem is "How do I explain to a Vista user, or prospective Vista
>> user,
>> exactly what Freedom his software lacks (and what freedoms he is giving
>> up
> by
>> using Vista), when I don't even use it at all?"
>>
>> That is a point by point issue that perhaps we could work on getting
>> into a
>> form that might reach "Joe Sixpack", or "Anonymous".
>>
>> Every time I get serious about explaining this, I see eyeballs glaze
>> over.
>> Well what can I say, I am an engineer by training, a hacker by
>> inclination
>> (not the hacker the news media has corrupted the honorable title into).
>>
>> So how do I reach the average end user?
>>
>> I don't believe it's a requirement to reach "Granny", she will come to
>> it on
>> her own, or go with whatever the family geek sets up for her. (I get all
>> my
>> 'old people' because either I am recommended, or they have had such a
>> bad
>> experience with Windows that they are out searching for something
>> better,
> and
>> run across me).
>>
>> So long as it's set up for them, they are the easiest bunch I know of to
>> get
>> to be happy GNU/Linux users. Notice that I am in a de facto manner,
>> simply
>> becoming a non evil Redmond for them. I have made it all work, from the
> first
>> time they use it, I hold their hand as long as is needed, and am
>> available
> to
>> help (i.e.; fix it.) when they do have a problem.
>>
>> This is not "Joe Sixpack" gets a distro and tries to install it...
> Games?????
>> where are games??? No Second Life! Why!!
>>
>> But then gaming is not often a big thing with my clients, maybe poker or
>> solitaire. Frozen Bubble is always a big hit.
>>
>> So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ
>> that
> is
>> written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit
> from
>> using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using
>> Vista.
>>
>> Why giving up some things that Microsoft is using to entice you (and
>> developers) with, is the right thing to do. And why it's going to
>> ultimately
>> benefit them to forgo some of those poisonous things.
>>
>> And the FAQ needs to be in easy to understand terms and verbiage.
>>
>> As Jacob and I not long ago discovered, what seems obvious to one person
>> (or
>> age group) may not be obvious at all to another. This is one of the
>> things
>> that needs to be considered when creating any sort of "come on over,
>> this is
>> great" sort of page, be it a FAQ or otherwise.
>>
>> I await some feedback from all of you.
>>
>> As most of you know (I hope) feedback that does not agree with my take
>> is
> fine
>> with me.
>>
>> I'll leave you all with this observation about life (at least my life,
>> and
>> I'll bet yours too):
>>
>> "I have never, ever, not once, learned anything from someone that agreed
> with
>> me." If he agreed what was there to learn from him?
>>
>> Don.
>
> My employer requires me to test web-based software on the latest and
> greatest
> Windows rubbish (yes, it is rubbish).  So, he went to Dell and bought a
> copy
> of Vista and it came with a computer free of charge (the computer was
> roughly
> $200 more than the cost of the version of Vista installed, and he got a
> $250
> rebate).
>
> As for the things that Joe Schmoe would notice that are broken about it,
> well,
> let's enumerate shall we?
>
> 1) This smartphone (PalmOS) came with a driver and install disc for win32.
> Well, it doesn't work.  I get a GPF whenever I try to install software
> onto
> the phone using this software.  This is just a Treo 700p from Verizon
> Wireless.  Very common.  Yet, I plugged it into my Kubuntu box and as soon
> as
> I loaded the visor kernel module, this thing worked pretty well with
> kpilot.
>
> 2) *MANY* programs are 100% incompatible with Vista.  This allSnap program
> I
> use in order to snap windows to the edge (a feature that most X window
> managers have had for quite some time) won't execute.  Windows "detects
> problems" and is "unable to resolve" them.
>
> 3) I picked up a Linksys wireless network extender (let's you plug in
> ethernet
> and access your wireless network) and tried to configure it, thinking the
> windows install would work the quickest (sorry, I'm lazy sometimes).
> Well,
> when I went to run the configuration tool on the CDROM, I got a "windows
> has
> detected a problem" and it wouldn't run.  I called their (Linksys')
> support
> number and found out that Vista is not supported.  So I asked what IP and
> port and default authentication information was the default for the
> device,
> plugged it into my GNU/Linux/KDE box and it only took me 2 minutes to do
> what
> I'd just wasted more than ten times that trying to do with Vista.
>
> 4) This thing hits the 3D for everything.  My machine pumps out a
> considerable
> amount of heat.  Not overheating, but I can only imagine how much extra
> juice
> it's burning needlessly.
>
> 5) The graphics drivers for Vista are crap.  Both ATI and NVidia are
> playing
> hell trying to get their drivers to work.  These nvidia drivers on this
> machine now leave yellow lines on the screen during boot, and when the
> screensaver runs I get all sorts of weird artifacts on the screen.  ATI
> users
> of Vista will have scarier stories on that as ATI doesn't know how to
> write
> drivers for general computers to save their lives.
>
> 6) USB doesn't wake up after resume.  If you have your wireless adapter on
> USB, you have to constantly disconnect and reconnect it when resuming from
> sleep.
>
> 7) Everything asks you if you want to send data to Microsoft.  They ask if
> you
> want to "help improve Microsoft products" for damn-near everything.  These
> options are checked by default, and have "(Recommended)" next to the "Yes"
> radio button.
>
> Well, that's all I feel like typing right now.  I may put up a second
> edition
> of this later.  Dunno.  I feel better now.
>
> --
> ~ manchicken <><
> (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer.
> The number of the beast - vi vi vi
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
> (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
> The number of the beast - vi vi vi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
I think your article served as a good review for (bad)Vista. Consider
archive it somewhere. On a weblog or something =)

Lam YongXian
Adolf AT www.adolflam.com



From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 05:39:19 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:39:19 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP"
In-Reply-To: <deb31e820704291900y6cbb24cjecbbbbdb9913258@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com>
	<200704291409.42608.Don@donhensley.com>
	<39968.192.168.1.1.1177881871.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<200704291541.41292.Don@donhensley.com>
	<deb31e820704291900y6cbb24cjecbbbbdb9913258@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48399.203.120.68.71.1178012359.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


>> RMS had the correct vision, and the will. He just lacked the funding and
>> the
>> exposure. More of a timing problem, and a resource problem, else Windows
>> would have been more of a footnote then any thing else. IMO.
>
> His vision is one of freedom. Note that he care neither about
> convenient nor low learning curve. If he needs to execute 10 commands
> of free software just to view a Youtube video, he would do it rather
> than use non-free software like Adobe Flash.
>
> Similarly, if Internet Banking requires usage of the non-free Sun's
> Java, we should refuse to use it and instead take a walk to the bank.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Koh Choon Lin
> Singapore GNU Group
>
> singapore.gnu.googlepages.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

Yes, I thought of this and I agree, to some extend. But I wonder if it is
too idealistic? Of cause, it is an ultimate goal to will move forward to.
But in the miss of accomplishing goal, should we continue to
keep-in-contact with the rest of the people?

Lam YongXian
Adolf AT www.adolflam.com



From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 06:17:26 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:17:26 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704301959u7993ceefpe0ca41162a7634da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<46368B79.6050300@stevew.net> <4636D69D.1966.367357@d_n.Loryx.com>
	<3922422b0704301959u7993ceefpe0ca41162a7634da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705010317y1731b45eg55fec1c632773062@mail.gmail.com>

Of course, you don't really need to reboot just because you changed
"something". Unless it is the kernel.

2007/5/1, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com>:
> Did you know that you NEVER need to reboot *NIX unless you are
> changing something?
> Certainly not true. I love GNU/Linux as much as the next guy but we
> should keep ourselves honest.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 4/30/07, D'n Russler <d_n at loryx.com> wrote:
> > On 1 May 2007 at 1:36, Steve Welsh wrote:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> >
> > > > common-sense system folder setups
> > >
> > > *NIX doesn't have folders, it has directories
> >
> > ,,, to add to this, the differences between a *NIX directory and a *Doze folder are:
> >
> >         1) A directory is a file just like any other, that keeps POINTERS to files,
> >         not the files themselves. So when you move files from one directory to another
> >         you're not really moving anything, just updating the contents of two files. This
> >         is why "mv" on *NIX is blindingly faster than "move" on *Doze.
> >
> >         2) Since your files exist independently of which directories point to them, a file
> >         can be in two, twenty, two-thousand places at once. Not copies; not "shortcuts";
> >         the same file. This is called "links" in *NIX.
> >
> >         So if you change /home/me/schedule.txt, and /home/business/office/sched.txt is
> >         a link to this (that is, the same file), BOTH are changed at once. Which is "the"
> >         file? Yes. Both are. Same file, different views of it.
> >
> >
> >  - that's why when you
> > > want
> > > to list the files in a directory on any windoze dos-emulator
> > > console,
> > > you type 'dir'.
> > >
> >
> >
> > > . It's not a problem if I'm just using a
> > > > package manager, but it gets very difficult if I ever want to do
> > > something
> > > > manually. Perhaps experienced users have a better understanding of
> > > why
> > > > things are the way they are
> > >
> > > Yes, learn about the UNIX file system that M$ was trying to
> > > duplicate in
> > > Vista, and failed miserably. Read about the underlying system -
> > > EXT2,
> > > EXT3, Reiser!
> >
> >         Simply put, *Doze was built upon Good Ol' CP/M - One User, One Computer, One
> > Function. And it hasn't progressed. Because the old FAT systems, then NTFS, now
> > whatever else M$ rolls out, all view a file as "belonging" to its folder, things will never
> > improve.
> >
> > And it gets worse. All *Doze systems, when they access, say, C:\, initialize (read) all
> > subfolders under C:\... and one level under that. So if you have a folder under C:\ with say
> > 1,000 files in it, EVERY time you click on C: the Application (*Doze) reopens it. Again and
> > again and again. This is why you have C:\Program Files\Company\... , so that the system
> > doesn't grind itself to a halt while reopening C:.
> >
> > Find out why Linux boxes *never* need to be
> > > defragmented,
> > > etc, etc.
> >
> > Ok, I'll give this one away too :) This is because all file storage is handled by something
> > called a OPERATING SYSTEM (Linux, Unix, etc-ix) whose job is to manage your computer's
> > hardware for you. Since *Doze is NOT an O/S, but an application which -- by DESIGN --
> > violates the OSI model separating levels of system functionality (email me if you want more
> > explanation). *Doze has no control of what's going on, so it loses open files, forgets you
> > removed your memory stick, and can't find your WiFi net which was working fine just a
> > moment ago.
> >
> > Ever use Word and have it crash? Notice you can't reopen the doc, until you REBOOT?
> >
> > Did you know that you NEVER need to reboot *NIX unless you are changing something?
> >
> > ... and back to our main topic, *NIX will never disable your hardware; lie to you about what
> > it's doing; change your programs without your knowledge, agreement, or understanding; or
> > serruptitiously report to an outside party what you have and are doing.
> >
> > The Evil Vista does all this, and smiles at you while it's doing it.
> >
> > >
> > > , but I just wish all the programs were in
> > > > subfolders of one central applications folder!
> > >
> >
> > Much of this comes from people viewing their files as a flat list of them, rather than in a "tree"
> > -- the *Doze "View Folders" option that *Doze Explorer resists with all its might. I've found
> > that people who started in computing with a "flat" view of files have a lot of difficulty changing
> > their perspective to seeing files arranged as a "tree".
> >
> > >  It's my understanding that
> > > > the folders are the way they are because of limitations which
> > > existed
> > > > twenty
> > > > years ago, but which aren't a problem today.
> >
> > OH they still are, and are they ever! See above, please.
> >
> > >
> > > To an extent I agree - it pisses me off when I can't find where
> > > the
> > > particular distro has hidden something - especially when it has
> > > been
> > > standard *NIX practice for about 20 years. Fedora has a wonderful
> > > facility, that beats the shit out of anything *ever* offered by M$
> > > -
> > > 'locate'.
> >
> > Not to mention grep... find... :) I've found that *Doze "Search", besides being incredibly
> > annoying to use ("Do you want to search for files? Do you want to search for music? Do you
> > want to --" "SHUT UP already, let me look for what I need!"), often lies. The same search run
> > with Explorer's Search will very often NOT find what grep-for-*Doze will.
> >
> > > Essentially ALL M$ offerings (M$ Access particularly springs to mind
> > > -
> > > plus *all* their OS) are extensions of single user systems
> >
> > Yes, yes, yes. One User, One Process, One Computer. Deal with it. Or upgrade to *NIX.
> >
> > > Let's all of us just concentrate on spreading the message that Vista
> > > is
> > > a heap of ordure, that only intends to rob us of *all* control of
> > > *OUR*
> > > computers!!
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On 30/04/07, Fred Okuma <fred.k at ieee.org> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> At 19:36 -0700 2007/04/29, member greenarrow1 wrote:
> > > >> >...This is one of the problems I see in Linux which a new user
> > > would
> > > >> >not be able to
> > > >> >comprehend or figure out.  ...
> > > >>
> >
> > Ask. There are thousands of people who will very patiently explain anything you want to
> > know about *NIX, and help you move from M$.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From hieu.d.hoang at gmail.com  Tue May  1 06:43:45 2007
From: hieu.d.hoang at gmail.com (Hieu Hoang)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:43:45 +0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705010317y1731b45eg55fec1c632773062@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com>
	<44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<46368B79.6050300@stevew.net> <4636D69D.1966.367357@d_n.Loryx.com>
	<3922422b0704301959u7993ceefpe0ca41162a7634da@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010317y1731b45eg55fec1c632773062@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4f12b0dd0705010343m2056b9a1v6f69e31aca4c7742@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
> "something". Unless it is the kernel.

Or after editing the root's disk's partition table. parted tells me to
umount it, but I can't figure out a way to do that without rebooting.

Way better than rebooting just to apply a security patch though, and
various apps that require it.

Hieu


From Don at donhensley.com  Tue May  1 06:50:09 2007
From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 03:50:09 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705010317y1731b45eg55fec1c632773062@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0704301959u7993ceefpe0ca41162a7634da@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010317y1731b45eg55fec1c632773062@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200705010350.09362.Don@donhensley.com>


Actually there are many conditions that will require a full reboot of any 
GNU/Linux computer.

Most changes (especially those that go well) do not require reboots, this much 
is true.

Where the legendary reliability of GNU/Linux comes into play is in the fact 
that they can have astounding up time, unlike most Windows systems.

But anyone with any real hands on experience with operating systems will tell 
you that troubles can and do occur. And if it's bad enough it will require a 
reboot - no matter what the operating system is.

But it will happen much, much, much, less often with GNU/Linux.

Don.
 *****************************
 On Tuesday 01 May 2007 03:17 am, Sunnz wrote:
Of course, you don't really need to reboot just because you changed
"something". Unless it is the kernel.

-- 
GNU/Linux is the future.
Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 07:36:24 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:36:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea
In-Reply-To: <34368.203.120.68.72.1178001271.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <b35fa3120704281028s40171f17k10fab44b09f0cd1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<34368.203.120.68.72.1178001271.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <47656.138.162.128.55.1178019384.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I wouldn't necessarily say all. But the name is not "BadMac" or "BadXP."
Again, I think that we shouldn't spread our efforts too thin.

Jacob

>
>> I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know
>> that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista,
>> specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable?
>>
>> Jacob
>
>
> You mean this campaign is created just to attack Windows Vista thats all?
>
> Lam YongXian
> Adolf AT www.adolflam.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 08:02:19 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:02:19 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>

Just started a "User help users" page on binary freedom:
http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Users_Help_Users

It is an idea adopted from this Xbox Linux page:
http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/Users_Help_Users

Not all people may have the expertise to install OS on their computer,
which could be a great barrier for them even if they want to get rid
of M$'s restrictive OS. This page can list what people can help
installing Linux on their computer.

However I don't think it is rational to _only_ install "totally free"
distro's like gNewsense. People may be dependent on different things
and we shall help them 'free' as much of their computer as possible,
not forcing our own solution down their throat. I myself would even
merely convert their M$ document to OpenOffice document if that's the
case.

That said, you can't be familiar with every distro out there, so you
might like to list distros that you are familiar with.

My English isn't very good... so my message here or on the wiki may be
unclear, so please, feel free to clean things up!! Thanks!!!

-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 08:41:23 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:41:23 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista first impressions.
In-Reply-To: <55567.138.162.128.56.1177934516.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <55567.138.162.128.56.1177934516.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <36659.192.169.41.33.1178023283.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> Test machine was an MPC P4, 1GB RAM, 80GB SATA, ATI X300/X550. Install
> platform was 32 bit.
>
> We have one thing working for us. The learning curve from XP to Vista is
> huge. The start menu is kind of confusing, the window animations are
> actually dizzying. Everytime you click on something, it asks you, "Windows
> needs confirmation to continue. You clicked on this program: <program x>
> Do you wish to continue?" EVERY time.
>
> 3 of the 4 thumbdrives I used, worked. But my Jump Drive Secure software
> didn't work. I couldn't access my encrypted partition on it. The other 2
> thumb drives were a Memorex 512MB Travel Drive, and a SimpleTech Bonzai SD
> reader. The non-working one was a GenX 128MB (Made by Samsung, the same
> company that makes XBox CD/DVD-ROMS!).
>
> Apache 2.2 for Windows wouldn't install. It just wouldn't.
>
> The ActiveX controls for VB that were previously installed on XP by
> default seem not to be there. This was discovered just by running some VB
> apps that I had from a past life.
>
> It does run some of the 16 bit applications that I had.
>
> It played MP3's, and an MPG, but would not play the AVI that I had, though
> I'm not entirely sure which AVI format it was.
>
> Since Vista is entirely different than XP inasmuch as the interface is
> redesigned, we may have some great leverage from that. The new learning
> curve for Vista would be just as steep as learning a GNU/Linux GUI.
>
> I'll try playing with Vista a little more today. I'll report more as the
> investigation continues.
>
> Jacob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

Well, at least your vista still installs =D And yes, we need this kind of
stories and info on the badvista information archive, or whatever you call
it.

Lam YongXian
Adolf AT www.adolflam.com



From open07 at gmail.com  Tue May  1 08:43:54 2007
From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:43:54 +0000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <deb31e820705010543k6390cd42t34fc83000753b45a@mail.gmail.com>

> Not all people may have the expertise to install OS on their computer,
> which could be a great barrier for them even if they want to get rid
> of M$'s restrictive OS. This page can list what people can help
> installing Linux on their computer.

Since this page is likely to contain instructions, should Binary
Freedom dual license the page, adding the GPL?



Regards

Koh Choon Lin
Singapore GNU Group

singapore.gnu.googlepages.com


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 08:44:41 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:44:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate]  A game on Vista
Message-ID: <49521.138.162.128.38.1178023481.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I decided to earn my pay, yesterday. I sat down to play "Pocket Tanks." It
is installed on the computer at work with Vista. If anyone here has played
"Pocket Tanks" before, they know it's not the most graphic-intensive game
made. For those of you who haven't played it, it's much like "Artillery"
and the old "Gorilla" game in QBasic, except that this has different
weapons.

On an XP machine, this game runs fine. Machine requirements are 233 MHz
CPU, DirectX3, and a card that supports 32 bit color. Very low
requirements. However, in the menus, the system is slow as can be on a HT
3.2 GHz, ATI X300/550 Vista machine. It almost stops showing the
animations, and in truth, it would be better because the animations are so
choppy. The mouse reaction slows while in the game.

Freecell has been upgraded to actually DEAL the cards and give you
tool-tips. Otherwise, there is no big difference.

Maybe I'll play Solitare for you all today.

Jacob



From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 08:49:39 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:49:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
 experience.
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3298.138.162.128.38.1178023779.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I was thinking about how nice a page like this would be. Nice thinking.

Jacob

> Just started a "User help users" page on binary freedom:
> http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Users_Help_Users
>
> It is an idea adopted from this Xbox Linux page:
> http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/Users_Help_Users
>
> Not all people may have the expertise to install OS on their computer,
> which could be a great barrier for them even if they want to get rid
> of M$'s restrictive OS. This page can list what people can help
> installing Linux on their computer.
>
> However I don't think it is rational to _only_ install "totally free"
> distro's like gNewsense. People may be dependent on different things
> and we shall help them 'free' as much of their computer as possible,
> not forcing our own solution down their throat. I myself would even
> merely convert their M$ document to OpenOffice document if that's the
> case.
>
> That said, you can't be familiar with every distro out there, so you
> might like to list distros that you are familiar with.
>
> My English isn't very good... so my message here or on the wiki may be
> unclear, so please, feel free to clean things up!! Thanks!!!
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 09:12:52 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:12:52 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120704300829l39511e5elf9da74deb1834559@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d920a27f0704300825j1e76cbacy646d6186a1b717bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120704300829l39511e5elf9da74deb1834559@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57525.203.120.68.66.1178025172.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> Oh, didn't notice there was such graphics that I could use, thanks,
> this would be great!
>
> Now, has anyone seen the Warner Wake up call post on that site?
>
> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/warner_music_wake_up_call
>
> I think Warener is very sturnborn and indeed needs a wake up call...
> unfortunately I am not in the US, but those in the US should help out
> if you can.
>
> 2007/5/1, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
>> Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and spread
>> the
>> word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from
>>
>> http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button
>>
>> I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at
>> www.tuxv.blogspot.com
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> --
>> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
>> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>>
>> Don't send me word attachments.
>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

We can send emails. Anyone has the contact details?

Lam YongXian
Adolf AT www.adolflam.com



From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 09:17:54 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:17:54 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
In-Reply-To: <deb31e820705010543k6390cd42t34fc83000753b45a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
	<deb31e820705010543k6390cd42t34fc83000753b45a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705010617l7d5c4678v1e9294836a7737a9@mail.gmail.com>

Huh? What do you mean? This is just a list of people who can help install Linux.

2007/5/1, Koh Choon Lin <open07 at gmail.com>:
> > Not all people may have the expertise to install OS on their computer,
> > which could be a great barrier for them even if they want to get rid
> > of M$'s restrictive OS. This page can list what people can help
> > installing Linux on their computer.
>
> Since this page is likely to contain instructions, should Binary
> Freedom dual license the page, adding the GPL?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Koh Choon Lin
> Singapore GNU Group
>
> singapore.gnu.googlepages.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 09:20:18 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:20:18 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
In-Reply-To: <3298.138.162.128.38.1178023779.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
	<3298.138.162.128.38.1178023779.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705010620j61977842mdde8db878a1e6cce@mail.gmail.com>

Jacob I added a catergory(?) for the U.S. and put your entry under it,
feel free to change you details. (I don't know if you actually live in
the U.S., just guessing. There are no NC state in Australia.)

2007/5/1, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> I was thinking about how nice a page like this would be. Nice thinking.
>
> Jacob
>
> > Just started a "User help users" page on binary freedom:
> > http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Users_Help_Users
> >
> > It is an idea adopted from this Xbox Linux page:
> > http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/Users_Help_Users
> >
> > Not all people may have the expertise to install OS on their computer,
> > which could be a great barrier for them even if they want to get rid
> > of M$'s restrictive OS. This page can list what people can help
> > installing Linux on their computer.
> >
> > However I don't think it is rational to _only_ install "totally free"
> > distro's like gNewsense. People may be dependent on different things
> > and we shall help them 'free' as much of their computer as possible,
> > not forcing our own solution down their throat. I myself would even
> > merely convert their M$ document to OpenOffice document if that's the
> > case.
> >
> > That said, you can't be familiar with every distro out there, so you
> > might like to list distros that you are familiar with.
> >
> > My English isn't very good... so my message here or on the wiki may be
> > unclear, so please, feel free to clean things up!! Thanks!!!
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From gregory at civicactions.com  Tue May  1 09:25:56 2007
From: gregory at civicactions.com (Gregory Heller)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 09:25:56 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] projectors for an ad campaign
In-Reply-To: <4636D5A9.6060906@binaryfreedom.info>
References: <b35fa3120704281028s40171f17k10fab44b09f0cd1f@mail.gmail.com>	<200704301943.07322.Don@donhensley.com>	<3922422b0704301947v70ba40dcpef0309e7d51a22bf@mail.gmail.com>	<200704302110.44408.Don@donhensley.com>	<4636CBB5.40807@civicactions.com>
	<4636D5A9.6060906@binaryfreedom.info>
Message-ID: <46373FE4.3020802@civicactions.com>

I just used a panasonic portable size projector.  I used it to project
text on a building facade:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregoryh/260352352/

I bought it for about $700 us from tigerdirect

rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
> Yes I remember I seen this guys at HOPE last year,
> very good point, BTW can you tell me the name and brand of the projector 
> you used?
> did you rent it? looks like you know about the topic can you tell me a 
> cheap place to buy one like it or similar?
>
> Thanks
> Chris Fernandez
> BinaryFreedom founder
>
>
> Gregory Heller wrote:
>   
>> see these guys http://graffitiresearchlab.com/?page_id=32#video
>>
>> there are a bunch of folks in NY who have done some stuff like this with
>> very powerful projectors.
>>
>> I did it with a mediocre projector at night on the apple store in soho
>> on oct 3
>>
>> Don Hensley wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> The only thing about that is I don't know just how much light a digital 
>>> projector can pump out.
>>>
>>> Think about it, the equation here is like illuminating a building wall with a 
>>> flash light, or a flood light. They will both do it but the effective light 
>>> from the flash light will most likely not be observable to the human eye, if 
>>> spread over much area and distance.
>>>
>>> I'm not familiar enough with the digital projectors to be able to say much, 
>>> except that I know the ones I have seen (like at presentations, etc.) would 
>>> never work... more like the flashlight, if you see what I mean. But as I said 
>>> for all I know they make the digital versions in major big high lumen output 
>>> versions.
>>>
>>> I know I would be skeptical of a old style movie projector making a very 
>>> brilliant display if used on a really large building... it too would be more 
>>> on the flashlight end (just a lot brighter then any digital unit I know 
>>> about) But as I said, my knowledge of digital units is very small.
>>>
>>> And do they make digital projectors for movies? I thought that was mostly, if 
>>> not all, more like a slide projector, or over head projector.
>>>
>>> Don.
>>> ***************************** 
>>>  On Monday 30 April 2007 07:47 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote:
>>> We don't need a dedicated one for this. How about we borrow one from a
>>> university, camera club, store, friend, etc? We could probably even
>>> rent one. I'm not talking about a old school film one, I'm talking
>>> about a nice digital projector that they use for like powerpoints or
>>> cheap movies.
>>> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>>>
>>> On 4/30/07, Don Hensley <Don at donhensley.com> wrote:
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> If you can find one anymore, I suspect a thrift store would almost give you
>>>> the thing - 5 - 10 bucks, but at 10 bucks it better be in real good shape.
>>>> Anyway that would be my opine.
>>>>
>>>> Of course it is also barely possible that at least some of them have become
>>>> 'collectibles'...
>>>>
>>>> As to the lens to cover what you want, and if the projector would be bright
>>>> enough, you would just have to experiment. But any one in a camera club or
>>>> class, (even digital uses a lens) should be able to help you right out on
>>>> these issues.
>>>>
>>>> Or just try one out, if you can find one. Some one you know, probably has
>>>> parents or grand parents that no doubt have one in storage some place. They
>>>> were the tech of the day, back when. I'd think they'd just give it to you.
>>>>
>>>> Don.
>>>>  ***********************
>>>>  On Monday 30 April 2007 07:30 pm, rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
>>>> I am very near Fenway Stadium in Boston, and right in front of my
>>>> building there is a nice building.. how much could it cost one of this
>>>> projectors with enough lens?
>>>> BinaryFreedom is going to start selling t-shirts soon with those funs
>>>> we plan in buying things like this to me our activism more visible.
>>>>
>>>> Chris F.
>>>>
>>>> Don Hensley wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> If it was me, I'd just dump my video to film, like super 8, or 16 mm (70
>>>>> mm would be perfect, but way to expensive both for film and the
>>>>> projector).
>>>>>
>>>>> Then any old home movie projector  --the thrift stores no doubt still
>>>>> have some around, I have a few some place myself --like me relics of
>>>>> another time...
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway you could really cover a large building that way, so long as the
>>>>> lens would focus it (you could change the lens if you needed to).  The
>>>>> darker the night the better, and that's the rub, until you are into
>>>>> something like a 'drive in movie' projector you are limited by the bulb
>>>>> in the projector. Still it could be done to good effect with some
>>>>> patience for a moonless night and not too bright a set of street lamps.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have done large drawings this way. Project the drawing on a building
>>>>> and then trace it for later painting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don.
>>>>>  *********************************************
>>>>>  On Monday 30 April 2007 04:21 pm, rek2GNU/Linux wrote:
>>>>> I do like the projector idea.. what type of projector is needed for this?
>>>>> hmmm this brings a lot of ideas... */puts evil smile */
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Advocate mailing list
>>>> Advocate at badvista.org
>>>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> GNU/Linux is the future.
>>>> Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
>>>> Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Advocate mailing list
>>>> Advocate at badvista.org
>>>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Advocate mailing list
>>> Advocate at badvista.org
>>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>   
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>   

-- 
----
Gregory Heller
AIM/SKYPE: GregoryHeller
http://www.CivicActions.com

Changing the world one node at a time!

The content of this email message is licensed under a  Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License, Some Rights Reserved. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 09:26:28 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:26:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
 experience.
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705010620j61977842mdde8db878a1e6cce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
	<3298.138.162.128.38.1178023779.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705010620j61977842mdde8db878a1e6cce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12676.138.162.128.38.1178025988.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Good Thinking. Thanks.

Jacob

> Jacob I added a catergory(?) for the U.S. and put your entry under it,
> feel free to change you details. (I don't know if you actually live in
> the U.S., just guessing. There are no NC state in Australia.)
>
> 2007/5/1, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> I was thinking about how nice a page like this would be. Nice thinking.
>>
>> Jacob
>>
>> > Just started a "User help users" page on binary freedom:
>> > http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Users_Help_Users
>> >
>> > It is an idea adopted from this Xbox Linux page:
>> > http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/Users_Help_Users
>> >
>> > Not all people may have the expertise to install OS on their computer,
>> > which could be a great barrier for them even if they want to get rid
>> > of M$'s restrictive OS. This page can list what people can help
>> > installing Linux on their computer.
>> >
>> > However I don't think it is rational to _only_ install "totally free"
>> > distro's like gNewsense. People may be dependent on different things
>> > and we shall help them 'free' as much of their computer as possible,
>> > not forcing our own solution down their throat. I myself would even
>> > merely convert their M$ document to OpenOffice document if that's the
>> > case.
>> >
>> > That said, you can't be familiar with every distro out there, so you
>> > might like to list distros that you are familiar with.
>> >
>> > My English isn't very good... so my message here or on the wiki may be
>> > unclear, so please, feel free to clean things up!! Thanks!!!
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>






From open07 at gmail.com  Tue May  1 09:40:27 2007
From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:40:27 +0000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705010617l7d5c4678v1e9294836a7737a9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
	<deb31e820705010543k6390cd42t34fc83000753b45a@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010617l7d5c4678v1e9294836a7737a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <deb31e820705010640g4982b976ge6da28243ffde85c@mail.gmail.com>

> Huh? What do you mean? This is just a list of people who can help install Linux.
>

Sorry to say I made a mistake. Had assumed this is an instruction page
to free software. Anyway, I feel there is no need to put down
individual names for each tasks (though this is fine). Instead, we
should list the various groups (FSFs, GLUGs, FSGs, etc..) around the
region if they are interested to help. The distribution of service
would be up to the discretion of the group itself.


Regards

Koh Choon Lin
Singapore GNU Group

singapore.gnu.googlepages.com


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 09:45:40 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:45:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
 experience.
In-Reply-To: <deb31e820705010640g4982b976ge6da28243ffde85c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
	<deb31e820705010543k6390cd42t34fc83000753b45a@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010617l7d5c4678v1e9294836a7737a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<deb31e820705010640g4982b976ge6da28243ffde85c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <24917.138.162.128.38.1178027140.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

This would be for "New Users" or users that need help with installation or
other computer expertise. It would also be useful to rally support in your
region. I think it's a great page idea.

Jacob


>> Huh? What do you mean? This is just a list of people who can help
>> install Linux.
>>
>
> Sorry to say I made a mistake. Had assumed this is an instruction page
> to free software. Anyway, I feel there is no need to put down
> individual names for each tasks (though this is fine). Instead, we
> should list the various groups (FSFs, GLUGs, FSGs, etc..) around the
> region if they are interested to help. The distribution of service
> would be up to the discretion of the group itself.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Koh Choon Lin
> Singapore GNU Group
>
> singapore.gnu.googlepages.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 09:55:35 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:55:35 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
In-Reply-To: <deb31e820705010640g4982b976ge6da28243ffde85c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
	<deb31e820705010543k6390cd42t34fc83000753b45a@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010617l7d5c4678v1e9294836a7737a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<deb31e820705010640g4982b976ge6da28243ffde85c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705010655k1c8653am2cdb34215ac893ee@mail.gmail.com>

Yea LUGs are great, but I think there is already a list of LUG around
the world, is there?

I think if we are to 'preach' about Linux, it would be good to give a
list of place where people can get help doing it. LUG is a good one,
but I think User Help User also helps in area that LUG can't help,
e.g. set up a good wireless network on the new user's place... LUG and
User To User could go hand in hand also, people can be meet at LUG,
then go to the new user's place to set up stuff. The possibility
should be limitless.


2007/5/1, Koh Choon Lin <open07 at gmail.com>:
> > Huh? What do you mean? This is just a list of people who can help install Linux.
> >
>
> Sorry to say I made a mistake. Had assumed this is an instruction page
> to free software. Anyway, I feel there is no need to put down
> individual names for each tasks (though this is fine). Instead, we
> should list the various groups (FSFs, GLUGs, FSGs, etc..) around the
> region if they are interested to help. The distribution of service
> would be up to the discretion of the group itself.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Koh Choon Lin
> Singapore GNU Group
>
> singapore.gnu.googlepages.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Tue May  1 10:29:52 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:29:52 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux
In-Reply-To: <200705010350.09362.Don@donhensley.com>
References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010317y1731b45eg55fec1c632773062@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705010350.09362.Don@donhensley.com>
Message-ID: <200705010929.52771.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Tuesday 01 May 2007 05:50:09 Don Hensley wrote:
> Actually there are many conditions that will require a full reboot of any
> GNU/Linux computer.
>
> Most changes (especially those that go well) do not require reboots, this
> much is true.
>
> Where the legendary reliability of GNU/Linux comes into play is in the fact
> that they can have astounding up time, unlike most Windows systems.
>
> But anyone with any real hands on experience with operating systems will
> tell you that troubles can and do occur. And if it's bad enough it will
> require a reboot - no matter what the operating system is.
>
> But it will happen much, much, much, less often with GNU/Linux.
>
> Don.
>  *****************************
>  On Tuesday 01 May 2007 03:17 am, Sunnz wrote:
> Of course, you don't really need to reboot just because you changed
> "something". Unless it is the kernel.

The only time I ever reboot my wife's machine is when I upgrade to a new 
version of Kubuntu or we go out of town and I think I can save some dough on 
the power bill.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
The number of the beast - vi vi vi


From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Tue May  1 10:55:09 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 10:55:09 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the
	technical	experience.
In-Reply-To: <deb31e820705010543k6390cd42t34fc83000753b45a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
	<deb31e820705010543k6390cd42t34fc83000753b45a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <463754CD.4020705@binaryfreedom.info>

Koh Choon Lin wrote:
>> Not all people may have the expertise to install OS on their computer,
>> which could be a great barrier for them even if they want to get rid
>> of M$'s restrictive OS. This page can list what people can help
>> installing Linux on their computer.
>>     
>
> Since this page is likely to contain instructions, should Binary
> Freedom dual license the page, adding the GPL?
>
>   
All the wiki is under the GFDL
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html

take a look at it, I think is a good license for documentation and text.

Chris Fernandez

-- 
FSF member #697
BinaryFreedom Founder
gNewSense Developer.
Freedom Figther.
the LOLOLO.


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From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 11:02:50 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:02:50 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu?
In-Reply-To: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info>
References: <db122ee00704291229y64dff440te7d09bd5d63fd73e@mail.gmail.com>	<200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com>	<deb31e820704291852r24456532j22c11ae279d81821@mail.gmail.com>	<a22c6d110704300638i243a303dsf7460a4ab71e7f62@mail.gmail.com>	<4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu>
	<a22c6d110704300732n6496cbfdhabe33a00a23a69f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info>
Message-ID: <41285.192.169.41.42.1178031770.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> I can't agree 100% I do agree in some blending but with out changing the
> core of our ideals..
>
> First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux,
> second, you choose to buy that nice 3d card... now you must use the
> proprietary driver.. I see there a choice you made that was the wrong
> choice.. in the small cases were the card came with your computer
> already, then I advise to
> help the people at http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/  for a real free
> driver..
>
> we can't promote proprietary drivers or anything non-free,
> we cant stop people from using it.. but you can't tell someone to use
> them neither..
> as of now gNewSense is the only distro we can promote.. if we don't like
> it then lets work in
> making gnewsense better, we are in need of developers to help...
>
> if this project is going to promote non-free I am going to stand on the
> side.
> what It though of this project was:
> 1. to point the defects  of Windows or any other proprietary OS later.
> so we can't shoot our own feet, are we in one side or the other.
> 2. to promote FreeSoftware with FreeSoftware OS to archive point 3.
> 3. we are trying to show people a choice but not to hook them up on
> steroids sacrificing our ideals to convince them to move. we are what we
> are.. we are not the open source community.. but the FreeSoftware
> community and we have political ideals.
> if they don't like it they never will, I agree that some people may need
> to open their eyes with some candy already in windows.. but I don't
> agree we should tell them that what they are doing is right.. or that
> running proprietary is right, that is for *them* to think and choose.
>
> we are the messengers they are the ones who need to make a choice we
> can't force them with candy till they give up, and as the messengers we
> have to always give the right example and messengers.. I don't whant to
> hear.. well the guys at badvista said is ok for me to run Windows as
> long I have gimp,openoffice,firefox... bla bla.. then we are missing the
> whole point.
> even do I say it again.. I do agree that we can blend a bit to archive a
> bigger result but we can do this with out compromising the root ideals.
>
> Chris F.
> --
>
> FSF member #697
> BinaryFreedom Founder
> gNewSense Developer.
> Freedom Figther.
> the LOLOLO.
> Spanish!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

I have to agree with you to a large extent. But in this world, what
separates people is the quality of communication between 2 parties. It is
not about giving in or giving out to/on them. I dun like to give excuses
for failures. I believe if we can truly let them understand the ultimate
goal of free-software, which is more than just those superficial gain,
they will join us.

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 11:25:19 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:25:19 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT.
In-Reply-To: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43610.203.120.68.71.1178033119.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>

> Do you intend to tolerate others who want to fight for some of the
> same causes or do you intend to alienate them?

Actually this is subjective. You need to understand that this campaign is
started by fsf and so the default people you are going to encounter here
will be more of serious free-software than typical open-source(TM) ones.

Talking about 'same causes', it depends. If the goal is simply "Destroy
Windows Vista", it is kind of straight forward and its easier to get
comrades. But if it is "Destroy Vista and its equivalents while upholding
free software", automatically we know we will lose people. The former one
will give us more people, but whats the use when they dun understand the
ultimate ideal of free software? It would just make us another group of
jealous people on Microsoft(R) success.

The latter may attract lesser people at the start, but if we can put the
message across properly, I believe we can not only get supporters, but
supporters that knows what they are supporting.

I understand your concern. We all thought of that before. We are trying to
teach you hoping that you'll understand, not alienating you =)

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From open07 at gmail.com  Tue May  1 11:28:56 2007
From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 15:28:56 +0000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu?
In-Reply-To: <41285.192.169.41.42.1178031770.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <db122ee00704291229y64dff440te7d09bd5d63fd73e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com>
	<deb31e820704291852r24456532j22c11ae279d81821@mail.gmail.com>
	<a22c6d110704300638i243a303dsf7460a4ab71e7f62@mail.gmail.com>
	<4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu>
	<a22c6d110704300732n6496cbfdhabe33a00a23a69f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info>
	<41285.192.169.41.42.1178031770.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <deb31e820705010828k285dc5c0m6b8494c624946f64@mail.gmail.com>

> I have to agree with you to a large extent. But in this world, what
> separates people is the quality of communication between 2 parties. It is
> not about giving in or giving out to/on them. I dun like to give excuses
> for failures. I believe if we can truly let them understand the ultimate
> goal of free-software, which is more than just those superficial gain,
> they will join us.

This is the correct step. We need to educate the public about software
freedom. That is why even in an undemocratic country, the citizens
still vote for the government as there is no awareness of freedom and
that it is normal to have no freedom, since the government takes care
of maintaining that image. Microsoft will not let its users go easily,
locking them in secret file formats and forging dependency.

PS: Yong Xian, did you get my email about collaboration?


Regards

Koh Choon Lin
Singapore GNU Group

singapore.gnu.googlepages.com


From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 11:31:16 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:31:16 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners
In-Reply-To: <87odl56ead.fsf@spider.localnet>
References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<87odl56ead.fsf@spider.localnet>
Message-ID: <45447.203.120.68.66.1178033476.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> Michael F??tsch <foetsch at yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and
>> effort? Could BadVista host this?
>>
>
> I really like this idea, and we could definitely host this kind of FAQ.
> Perhaps
> someone else on the list has a wiki they can open up for the purpose of
> getting
> it written?
>
> I'd be happy to chime in and help with some of the writing and editing as
> well.
> In fact I have a draft document around that was written to help people get
> started with free software when we were originally planning the BadVista
> site.
> I can dig that up and contribute it to the effort.
>
> --
> John Sullivan
> Campaigns Manager            | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 |
> http://badvista.org
> 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl.  | Fax:   (617)542-2652	| http://www.gnu.org
> Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA    | GPG:   AE8600B6          |
> http://www.fsf.org
>
> "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista
> because it
> wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins
> it, of
> course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense."
>     --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

Count me in =)

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From Don at donhensley.com  Tue May  1 11:40:38 2007
From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:40:38 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux
In-Reply-To: <200705010929.52771.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705010350.09362.Don@donhensley.com>
	<200705010929.52771.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <200705010840.38612.Don@donhensley.com>


Yes that's the reliability part - real uptime.

But for those of us that actually work (or in my case worked) in the field, 
there are simply many, way to many to list, reasons for having to reboot a 
GNU/Linux box.

Here's at least 3 or 4 examples on just this one page (I picked this page 
because it was handy for me, I'll bet you could Google many more such pages):
 
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/Deployment_Guide-en-US/sec-sel-admincontrol.html 

And there are literally hundreds, probably thousands, of other perfectly valid 
reasons to reboot a GNU/Linux box. 

Quite a lot of them have to do with the state of proc which very often 
requires a full reboot to reflect the change in state of one thing or 
another. 

BTW, this is a real problem to get through to people at times, because the box 
is running just fine - and may continue to run just fine... but one or more 
changes may not be reflected in that running state until after a full reboot. 
This may leave the box unstable, or at risk to some attack vector.

Now Crashes that require a reboot are much more rare, but I've seen thousands 
of kernel panic conditions that were not fully recoverable from, without a 
reboot.

BUT: You will never see a "Blue Screen of Death" on a GNU/Linux box (except as 
a joke screen saver or as funny wallpaper). 

Don.
 ******************************
 On Tuesday 01 May 2007 07:29 am, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote:
On Tuesday 01 May 2007 05:50:09 Don Hensley wrote:
> Actually there are many conditions that will require a full reboot of any
> GNU/Linux computer.
>
> Most changes (especially those that go well) do not require reboots, this
> much is true.
>
> Where the legendary reliability of GNU/Linux comes into play is in the fact
> that they can have astounding up time, unlike most Windows systems.
>
> But anyone with any real hands on experience with operating systems will
> tell you that troubles can and do occur. And if it's bad enough it will
> require a reboot - no matter what the operating system is.
>
> But it will happen much, much, much, less often with GNU/Linux.
>
> Don.
>  *****************************
>  On Tuesday 01 May 2007 03:17 am, Sunnz wrote:
> Of course, you don't really need to reboot just because you changed
> "something". Unless it is the kernel.

The only time I ever reboot my wife's machine is when I upgrade to a new
version of Kubuntu or we go out of town and I think I can save some dough on
the power bill.

-- 
GNU/Linux is the future.
Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 11:48:15 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 01:48:15 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT.
In-Reply-To: <43610.203.120.68.71.1178033119.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<43610.203.120.68.71.1178033119.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705010848k16e8db7tebf92277c05f758e@mail.gmail.com>

2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
>The former one
> will give us more people, but whats the use when they dun understand the
> ultimate ideal of free software? It would just make us another group of
> jealous people on Microsoft(R) success.
>

However, if the motive for people to leave M$ is DRM, then we have won
half of the battle.

I have been reading all this posts, but I think it is going to be very
ineffective if we are to hard-sell free and only free software. There
are two things people are fighting for at the moment, DRM and closed
software, they are 2 different things, and I think it is better to
focus on DRM at the moment, everyone hates DRM when they finds out
about it, but the same people may not hate closed software... we must
first enlighten people about DRM, then promote free software as a
secondary area.

>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Tue May  1 11:49:23 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:49:23 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux
In-Reply-To: <200705010840.38612.Don@donhensley.com>
References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705010929.52771.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
	<200705010840.38612.Don@donhensley.com>
Message-ID: <200705011049.23672.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

> BUT: You will never see a "Blue Screen of Death" on a GNU/Linux box (except
> as a joke screen saver or as funny wallpaper).

Don't forget the screensaver.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
The number of the beast - vi vi vi


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 12:06:47 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 02:06:47 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux
In-Reply-To: <200705010840.38612.Don@donhensley.com>
References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705010350.09362.Don@donhensley.com>
	<200705010929.52771.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
	<200705010840.38612.Don@donhensley.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705010906n153e8823n2c8f76ec92d236a0@mail.gmail.com>

Hehe, about BSOD:

http://www.miguelcarrasco.net/miguelcarrasco/2006/10/blue_screen_of_.html

2007/5/2, Don Hensley <Don at donhensley.com>:
>
> Yes that's the reliability part - real uptime.
>
> But for those of us that actually work (or in my case worked) in the field,
> there are simply many, way to many to list, reasons for having to reboot a
> GNU/Linux box.
>
> Here's at least 3 or 4 examples on just this one page (I picked this page
> because it was handy for me, I'll bet you could Google many more such pages):
>
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/Deployment_Guide-en-US/sec-sel-admincontrol.html
>
> And there are literally hundreds, probably thousands, of other perfectly valid
> reasons to reboot a GNU/Linux box.
>
> Quite a lot of them have to do with the state of proc which very often
> requires a full reboot to reflect the change in state of one thing or
> another.
>
> BTW, this is a real problem to get through to people at times, because the box
> is running just fine - and may continue to run just fine... but one or more
> changes may not be reflected in that running state until after a full reboot.
> This may leave the box unstable, or at risk to some attack vector.
>
> Now Crashes that require a reboot are much more rare, but I've seen thousands
> of kernel panic conditions that were not fully recoverable from, without a
> reboot.
>
> BUT: You will never see a "Blue Screen of Death" on a GNU/Linux box (except as
> a joke screen saver or as funny wallpaper).
>
> Don.
>  ******************************
>  On Tuesday 01 May 2007 07:29 am, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote:
> On Tuesday 01 May 2007 05:50:09 Don Hensley wrote:
> > Actually there are many conditions that will require a full reboot of any
> > GNU/Linux computer.
> >
> > Most changes (especially those that go well) do not require reboots, this
> > much is true.
> >
> > Where the legendary reliability of GNU/Linux comes into play is in the fact
> > that they can have astounding up time, unlike most Windows systems.
> >
> > But anyone with any real hands on experience with operating systems will
> > tell you that troubles can and do occur. And if it's bad enough it will
> > require a reboot - no matter what the operating system is.
> >
> > But it will happen much, much, much, less often with GNU/Linux.
> >
> > Don.
> >  *****************************
> >  On Tuesday 01 May 2007 03:17 am, Sunnz wrote:
> > Of course, you don't really need to reboot just because you changed
> > "something". Unless it is the kernel.
>
> The only time I ever reboot my wife's machine is when I upgrade to a new
> version of Kubuntu or we go out of town and I think I can save some dough on
> the power bill.
>
> --
> GNU/Linux is the future.
> Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
> Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 12:35:39 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 00:35:39 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu?
In-Reply-To: <620272.48739.qm@web35803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <620272.48739.qm@web35803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49501.203.120.68.75.1178037339.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> John Sullivan wrote:
>> So while people "on the ground" might help other people switch away from
>> Vista
>> by installing a variety of distributions, let's keep the official
>> message of
>> the campaign clear by only recommending the fully free ones like
>> gNewSense.
>
> I find the question whether binary drivers are okay or not extremely
> difficult to answer. When I switched to GNU/Linux a few years ago, I
> didn't think about it twice when I installed the nVidia driver, Flash,
> RealPlayer, VMWare with Windows on it, ... It just helped me make the
> switch, and I didn't know any better.
>
> A few years and what must have been hundreds of Stallman essays later, I'm
> using only free software, and I try to advocate it in this way.
>
> Still, I don't feel bad about recommending Ubuntu to new GNU/Linux users.
> The thing is, they wouldn't switch if, say, they can't use the Internet
> anymore because their wi-fi device isn't supported. Once I have a chance
> to tell them about the issue, they'll even know why they should buy a
> different wi-fi device next time. But in the meantime, none of us would
> tell these people, "Bad luck. No GNU for you, you loooser!"
>
> So, in my opinion, it's not evil to recommend Ubuntu. Ubuntu isn't evil.
> Users who can't (yet) do without  proprietary software aren't evil.
>
>
> But exactly *because* this question has no easy answer (except the
> dogmatic ones), and there are so many gray areas, promoting only free
> distributions isn't only the *right* thing to do, it's also the *easiest*
> way to go. Otherwise, we'd find it extremely difficult to settle on a
> common definition of what is and is not acceptable.
>
> Anyway, I don't consider it a particularly strong message to say, "Don't
> use proprietary Vista. Use GNU/Linux, we have proprietary drivers too."
>
> Kind Regards,
> M.F.
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

A 2 step switch can be useful.

Proprietary -> Open Source -> Free Software

One way is to concentrate free software promotion on the Open Source
community, while letting that community do the job of making proprietary
user switch to them first.

BadVista campaign seems to be trying to offer a direct switch (Proprietary
-> Free Software), or if its too hard for people, at least help the first
switch (Proprietary -> Open Source).

We just have to remember, our root, the ultimate goal is free software.

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From foetsch at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 12:43:40 2007
From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:43:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
Message-ID: <110587.62511.qm@web35810.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Chris Fernandez wrote:
>All the wiki is under the GFDL
> http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html


BTW, shouldn't it say sth. like "with no cover texts and no invariant sections" somewhere on the wiki?

Kind Regards,
M.F.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From foetsch at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 12:54:05 2007
From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 09:54:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu?
Message-ID: <195282.46061.qm@web35811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lam YongXian wrote:
>One way is to concentrate free software promotion on the Open Source
> community, while letting that community do the job of making proprietary
> user switch to them first.

It seems they do: http://www.ubuntu.com/news/dell-to-offer-ubuntu

I haven't read up on their plans concerning free software-supported hardware, but all in all it sounds like a good thing. (More users for us to educate about free software values. :-)

Kind Regards,
M.F.





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From open07 at gmail.com  Tue May  1 20:56:00 2007
From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 00:56:00 +0000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the
	technical	experience.
In-Reply-To: <110587.62511.qm@web35810.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <110587.62511.qm@web35810.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1178067360.17954.7.camel@localhost>

> Chris Fernandez wrote:
> >All the wiki is under the GFDL
> > http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html
> 
> 
> BTW, shouldn't it say sth. like "with no cover texts and no invariant sections" somewhere on the wiki?

I got the same worry. Either this or we can set up dual licensing once
we or some developers have the need?


Regards
Koh Choon Lin
Singapore GNU Group
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From foetsch at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 13:06:37 2007
From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:06:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Switching to GNU/Linux FAQ
Message-ID: <336635.39524.qm@web35806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

I started the FAQ that we talked about: http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Switching_to_GNU/Linux_FAQ

My plan is to add more questions about actually making the switch: What is a dual-boot setup? Can I run GNU/Linux in a virtual machine? What's the Word equivalent? What's the Outlook equivalent? Can I hook up GNU/Linux to a Windows home network? Etc. etc.

All comments and edits are welcome, of course.

Kind Regards,
M.F.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 13:51:36 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 13:51:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate]  Help "Hotline"
Message-ID: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of other
people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up a
chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
"Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we could
assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or setup. I
have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak server
setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF would
be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.

Jacob



From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 14:31:34 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 02:31:34 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT.
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705010848k16e8db7tebf92277c05f758e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<43610.203.120.68.71.1178033119.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<b35fa3120705010848k16e8db7tebf92277c05f758e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46219.203.120.68.73.1178044294.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
>>The former one
>> will give us more people, but whats the use when they dun understand the
>> ultimate ideal of free software? It would just make us another group of
>> jealous people on Microsoft(R) success.
>>
>
> However, if the motive for people to leave M$ is DRM, then we have won
> half of the battle.
>
> I have been reading all this posts, but I think it is going to be very
> ineffective if we are to hard-sell free and only free software. There
> are two things people are fighting for at the moment, DRM and closed
> software, they are 2 different things, and I think it is better to
> focus on DRM at the moment, everyone hates DRM when they finds out
> about it, but the same people may not hate closed software... we must
> first enlighten people about DRM, then promote free software as a
> secondary area.
>
>>
>> ---
>> Lam YongXian
>> Adolflam.com
>>
>> FSF member #5279
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

Yes, I am not ruling out the step by step strategy in doing this. We just
have to be careful not to lose our goal of free software (look at OSI).
And while in the process of doing so, not to mislead people on the goal.

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 14:33:58 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 04:33:58 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Switching to GNU/Linux FAQ
In-Reply-To: <336635.39524.qm@web35806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <336635.39524.qm@web35806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705011133h45b5eefel35f809a7944d03e3@mail.gmail.com>

Added links to User Help Users on point 4, Where do I start.

Ideally there should be a page explaining what LUG is and link to a
list of LUG around the world.

2007/5/2, Michael F?tsch <foetsch at yahoo.com>:
> Hi all,
>
> I started the FAQ that we talked about: http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Switching_to_GNU/Linux_FAQ
>
> My plan is to add more questions about actually making the switch: What is a dual-boot setup? Can I run GNU/Linux in a virtual machine? What's the Word equivalent? What's the Outlook equivalent? Can I hook up GNU/Linux to a Windows home network? Etc. etc.
>
> All comments and edits are welcome, of course.
>
> Kind Regards,
> M.F.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Tue May  1 15:08:18 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 15:08:18 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Switching to GNU/Linux FAQ [OT]
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705011133h45b5eefel35f809a7944d03e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <336635.39524.qm@web35806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<b35fa3120705011133h45b5eefel35f809a7944d03e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46379022.3030100@binaryfreedom.info>


Hmmm wait this is delicate and off topic since John already mention we 
are going to keep this  OT as not and option, and this is not personal 
against whoever wrote this email is just a fact with BinaryFreedom, I 
don't agree with posting LUG's on BinaryFreedom this will go against
everything else the site says,  I will only admit GLUGS, or the lug can 
finally join the
cause and change their name so they don't mislead the public any more.
again don't take this personal or as an attack understand that 
BinaryFreedom stands for Freedom and ideals, (FreeSoftware) we are not 
willing to add open source advocate groups to our site, nothing wrong 
with them but we just don't think the same way and I don't want to 
mislead our visitors.

Cheers.

Chris Fernandez
BinaryFreedom founder
gNewSense developer.

>   



From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Tue May  1 15:27:12 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 15:27:12 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Switching to GNU/Linux FAQ
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705011133h45b5eefel35f809a7944d03e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <336635.39524.qm@web35806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<b35fa3120705011133h45b5eefel35f809a7944d03e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46379490.90406@binaryfreedom.info>

Actually I notes there has been already a link on the wiki to LUGs,
please substitute with  the list on the GNU site to GLUGS, and 
FreeSoftware groups,
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-user-groups.html
also if is corporate help link to services:
http://www.fsf.org/resources/service
http://www.gnu.org/links/


Thanks.


Sunnz wrote:
> Added links to User Help Users on point 4, Where do I start.
>
> Ideally there should be a page explaining what LUG is and link to a
> list of LUG around the world.
>
> 2007/5/2, Michael F?tsch <foetsch at yahoo.com>:
>   
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I started the FAQ that we talked about: http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Switching_to_GNU/Linux_FAQ
>>
>> My plan is to add more questions about actually making the switch: What is a dual-boot setup? Can I run GNU/Linux in a virtual machine? What's the Word equivalent? What's the Outlook equivalent? Can I hook up GNU/Linux to a Windows home network? Etc. etc.
>>
>> All comments and edits are welcome, of course.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> M.F.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>>     
>
>
>   



From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Tue May  1 15:31:57 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 15:31:57 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Switching to GNU/Linux FAQ [OT]
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705011133h45b5eefel35f809a7944d03e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <336635.39524.qm@web35806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<b35fa3120705011133h45b5eefel35f809a7944d03e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <463795AD.10407@binaryfreedom.info>


Hmmm wait this is delicate and off topic since John already mention we
are going to keep this  OT as not and option, and this is not personal
against whoever wrote this email is just a fact with BinaryFreedom, I
don't agree with posting LUG's on BinaryFreedom this will go against
everything else the site says,  I will only admit GLUGS, or the lug can
finally join the
cause and change their name so they don't mislead the public any more.
again don't take this personal or as an attack understand that
BinaryFreedom stands for Freedom and ideals, (FreeSoftware) we are not
willing to add open source advocate groups to our site, nothing wrong
with them but we just don't think the same way and I don't want to
mislead our visitors.

Cheers.

Chris Fernandez
BinaryFreedom founder
gNewSense developer.

>   




From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Tue May  1 16:30:00 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 15:30:00 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT.
In-Reply-To: <46219.203.120.68.73.1178044294.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010848k16e8db7tebf92277c05f758e@mail.gmail.com>
	<46219.203.120.68.73.1178044294.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <200705011530.00348.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Tuesday 01 May 2007 13:31:34 Lam YongXian wrote:
> > 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> >>The former one
> >> will give us more people, but whats the use when they dun understand the
> >> ultimate ideal of free software? It would just make us another group of
> >> jealous people on Microsoft(R) success.
> >
> > However, if the motive for people to leave M$ is DRM, then we have won
> > half of the battle.
> >
> > I have been reading all this posts, but I think it is going to be very
> > ineffective if we are to hard-sell free and only free software. There
> > are two things people are fighting for at the moment, DRM and closed
> > software, they are 2 different things, and I think it is better to
> > focus on DRM at the moment, everyone hates DRM when they finds out
> > about it, but the same people may not hate closed software... we must
> > first enlighten people about DRM, then promote free software as a
> > secondary area.
> >
> >> ---
> >> Lam YongXian
> >> Adolflam.com
> >>
> >> FSF member #5279
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> Yes, I am not ruling out the step by step strategy in doing this. We just
> have to be careful not to lose our goal of free software (look at OSI).
> And while in the process of doing so, not to mislead people on the goal.
>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

Freedom--and COMPLETE freedom at that--has been and still is the goal.  It's 
just taking time.  When GNU was first around, there was no way to run a free 
software operating system.  Now there is.  Ubuntu isn't the completely free 
solution that we want, but it is one that will help better the position of 
free software.  Let's keep calling it GNU/Linux, and let's keep pushing for 
freedom.  We'll use gNewSense, and we'll promote gNewSense (let's all make 
sure we're seeding it via torrents), and we should also rejoice that even 
though other folks aren't completely free due to poor licensing practices of 
hardware and software vendors, that they are magnitudes more free than they 
were.

I also think that the increased adoption of Ubuntu will encourage 
manufacturers to release specs and software companies to free formats (how 
cool would it be if Flash was made a free format?).

Yeah, we have those who like to stand on soap boxes and proclaim their moral 
superiority, and they may be right that they are more free... but if we keep 
increasing awareness and increasing freedom, and keep reminding people to 
value their freedom, we'll get where we're going.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
The number of the beast - vi vi vi


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 16:38:31 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:38:31 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word
In-Reply-To: <57525.203.120.68.66.1178025172.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <d920a27f0704300825j1e76cbacy646d6186a1b717bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120704300829l39511e5elf9da74deb1834559@mail.gmail.com>
	<57525.203.120.68.66.1178025172.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011338y6075d442l89dd53dd16c2b27@mail.gmail.com>

Emails to where?
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
>
> > Oh, didn't notice there was such graphics that I could use, thanks,
> > this would be great!
> >
> > Now, has anyone seen the Warner Wake up call post on that site?
> >
> > http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/warner_music_wake_up_call
> >
> > I think Warener is very sturnborn and indeed needs a wake up call...
> > unfortunately I am not in the US, but those in the US should help out
> > if you can.
> >
> > 2007/5/1, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
> >> Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and spread
> >> the
> >> word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from
> >>
> >> http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button
> >>
> >> I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at
> >> www.tuxv.blogspot.com
> >>
> >> cheers
> >>
> >> --
> >> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> >> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> >>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> >>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> >>
> >> Don't send me word attachments.
> >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> We can send emails. Anyone has the contact details?
>
> Lam YongXian
> Adolf AT www.adolflam.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 16:55:29 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:55:29 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
In-Reply-To: <1178067360.17954.7.camel@localhost>
References: <110587.62511.qm@web35810.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1178067360.17954.7.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011355u2fdca93bica476eaca26ff2b3@mail.gmail.com>

If you are in a LUG or on a mailing list for a LUG, please spread the
word about this page.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Koh Choon Lin <open07 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Chris Fernandez wrote:
> > >All the wiki is under the GFDL
> > > http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html
> >
> >
> > BTW, shouldn't it say sth. like "with no cover texts and no invariant sections" somewhere on the wiki?
>
> I got the same worry. Either this or we can set up dual licensing once
> we or some developers have the need?
>
>
> Regards
> Koh Choon Lin
> Singapore GNU Group
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>
>


From johns at fsf.org  Tue May  1 18:42:58 2007
From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 18:42:58 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea
In-Reply-To: <34368.203.120.68.72.1178001271.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	(Lam YongXian's message of "Tue, 1 May 2007 14:34:31 +0800 (SGT)")
References: <b35fa3120704281028s40171f17k10fab44b09f0cd1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<34368.203.120.68.72.1178001271.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <87zm4ow4gd.fsf@spider.localnet>

"Lam YongXian" <news at adolflam.com> writes:

>> I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know
>> that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista,
>> specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable?
>>
>> Jacob
>
>
> You mean this campaign is created just to attack Windows Vista thats all?
>

It's one facet of a wider campaign to promote free software (the FSF). Just
like we have separate campaigns for individual free software issues, like Free
BIOS for example, we have this separate campaign to target Microsoft Vista. Of
course if anyone asks we always say that almost all of our objections to Vista
apply to other proprietary software too.

-- 
John Sullivan
Campaigns Manager            | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org
51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl.  | Fax:   (617)542-2652	| http://www.gnu.org
Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA    | GPG:   AE8600B6          | http://www.fsf.org

"Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it
wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of
course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense."
    --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista"


From johns at fsf.org  Tue May  1 18:46:09 2007
From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 18:46:09 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help those who don't have the technical
	experience.
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
	(Sunnz's message of "Tue, 1 May 2007 22:02:19 +1000")
References: <b35fa3120705010502p2ab7f7a6u56ae9a1ec95f1f70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87tzuww4b2.fsf@spider.localnet>

Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> writes:

> Just started a "User help users" page on binary freedom:
> http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Users_Help_Users
>

Keep in mind that we also have the Service Directory at
http://www.fsf.org/resources/service. Seems similar.

-- 
John Sullivan
Campaigns Manager            | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org
51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl.  | Fax:   (617)542-2652	| http://www.gnu.org
Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA    | GPG:   AE8600B6          | http://www.fsf.org

"Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it
wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of
course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense."
    --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista"


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 18:50:51 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 18:50:51 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>

It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
would love to see it happen.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of other
> people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up a
> chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
> "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we could
> assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or setup. I
> have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak server
> setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF would
> be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
>
> Jacob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 19:41:07 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:41:07 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>

I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
Respectfully Submitted,
Comrade Ringo Kamens


From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 19:51:36 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:51:36 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011338y6075d442l89dd53dd16c2b27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d920a27f0704300825j1e76cbacy646d6186a1b717bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120704300829l39511e5elf9da74deb1834559@mail.gmail.com>
	<57525.203.120.68.66.1178025172.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<3922422b0705011338y6075d442l89dd53dd16c2b27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35886.192.169.41.44.1178063496.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> Emails to where?
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Oh, didn't notice there was such graphics that I could use, thanks,
>> > this would be great!
>> >
>> > Now, has anyone seen the Warner Wake up call post on that site?
>> >
>> > http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/warner_music_wake_up_call
>> >
>> > I think Warener is very sturnborn and indeed needs a wake up call...
>> > unfortunately I am not in the US, but those in the US should help out
>> > if you can.
>> >
>> > 2007/5/1, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi
>> <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
>> >> Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and
>> spread
>> >> the
>> >> word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from
>> >>
>> >> http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button
>> >>
>> >> I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at
>> >> www.tuxv.blogspot.com
>> >>
>> >> cheers
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
>> >> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>> >>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>> >>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>> >>
>> >> Don't send me word attachments.
>> >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>> We can send emails. Anyone has the contact details?
>>
>> Lam YongXian
>> Adolf AT www.adolflam.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

To Warner?

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 19:53:12 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:53:12 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word
In-Reply-To: <35886.192.169.41.44.1178063496.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <d920a27f0704300825j1e76cbacy646d6186a1b717bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120704300829l39511e5elf9da74deb1834559@mail.gmail.com>
	<57525.203.120.68.66.1178025172.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<3922422b0705011338y6075d442l89dd53dd16c2b27@mail.gmail.com>
	<35886.192.169.41.44.1178063496.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011653g1b9f6148je4fa86a4548dd1c@mail.gmail.com>

Please make phone calls. They are much more effective and don't take
any longer. Info at defectivebydesign.org
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
>
> > Emails to where?
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Oh, didn't notice there was such graphics that I could use, thanks,
> >> > this would be great!
> >> >
> >> > Now, has anyone seen the Warner Wake up call post on that site?
> >> >
> >> > http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/warner_music_wake_up_call
> >> >
> >> > I think Warener is very sturnborn and indeed needs a wake up call...
> >> > unfortunately I am not in the US, but those in the US should help out
> >> > if you can.
> >> >
> >> > 2007/5/1, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi
> >> <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
> >> >> Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and
> >> spread
> >> >> the
> >> >> word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from
> >> >>
> >> >> http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button
> >> >>
> >> >> I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at
> >> >> www.tuxv.blogspot.com
> >> >>
> >> >> cheers
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> >> >> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> >> >>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> >> >>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> >> >>
> >> >> Don't send me word attachments.
> >> >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >> We can send emails. Anyone has the contact details?
> >>
> >> Lam YongXian
> >> Adolf AT www.adolflam.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> To Warner?
>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 19:58:19 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:58:19 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
> if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
> be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
> BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
> good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
> systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
> to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
> While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
> self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
> software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
> systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
> systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
> stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
> self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
> to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
> Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
> no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
> Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
> didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
> cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
> to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
> their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
> We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
> switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
> as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
> contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
> believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
> common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
> present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
> heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
> Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
> so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
> Respectfully Submitted,
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

AN ANALOGY:
We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That is
what happened some of to those at OSI.

Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From news at adolflam.com  Tue May  1 19:59:07 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:59:07 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011653g1b9f6148je4fa86a4548dd1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d920a27f0704300825j1e76cbacy646d6186a1b717bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120704300829l39511e5elf9da74deb1834559@mail.gmail.com>
	<57525.203.120.68.66.1178025172.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<3922422b0705011338y6075d442l89dd53dd16c2b27@mail.gmail.com>
	<35886.192.169.41.44.1178063496.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<3922422b0705011653g1b9f6148je4fa86a4548dd1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38327.203.120.68.71.1178063947.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> Please make phone calls. They are much more effective and don't take
> any longer. Info at defectivebydesign.org
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Emails to where?
>> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
>> >
>> > On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Oh, didn't notice there was such graphics that I could use, thanks,
>> >> > this would be great!
>> >> >
>> >> > Now, has anyone seen the Warner Wake up call post on that site?
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/warner_music_wake_up_call
>> >> >
>> >> > I think Warener is very sturnborn and indeed needs a wake up
>> call...
>> >> > unfortunately I am not in the US, but those in the US should help
>> out
>> >> > if you can.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2007/5/1, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi
>> >> <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
>> >> >> Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and
>> >> spread
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at
>> >> >> www.tuxv.blogspot.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> cheers
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
>> >> >> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>> >> >>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>> >> >>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Don't send me word attachments.
>> >> >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Advocate mailing list
>> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> We can send emails. Anyone has the contact details?
>> >>
>> >> Lam YongXian
>> >> Adolf AT www.adolflam.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>> To Warner?
>>
>> ---
>> Lam YongXian
>> Adolflam.com
>>
>> FSF member #5279
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

You mean international phone calls?

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Tue May  1 19:59:14 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 19:59:14 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [ifsa] Help People in Your Area
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011648l6dc7075egd786da605c2bd38@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011401v4fb7e80ble1be272a4ab07dad@mail.gmail.com>	<4637CAF0.1040208@binaryfreedom.info>
	<3922422b0705011648l6dc7075egd786da605c2bd38@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4637D452.3020400@binaryfreedom.info>

hmm ok let me set the record straight,
1. we are binaryfreedom and we have mission..I am not the boss and this 
is not personal, but I am going to make sure the mission is not blend 
like Erick Raymond did in the 90's, FreeSoftware not OpenSource..
if we were representing the OpenSource community we will be on the ESR 
list, not the FSF list, the real path of BF is FreeSoftware if any 
decision means bending those ideals then is not on binaryfreedom means I 
may particulary agree or not but that don't belongs to this list or the 
wiki. Talking about any Distro 100% non-free
 or User groups that don't recognize GNU as the system.
this is not about me, BinaryFreedom with have not even existed if those 
base grounds were there in the first place, and we need to continue with 
that idea.
if our ideas mismatch with other ideas then obviosly those ideas dont 
belong in the FreeSoftware fight but under the OpenSource fight.
Saying this, I cant have in the main site our Goals and Ideas and then 
have some members promote non-free distros.
I may come out like harsh because my english but I am just trying to say 
not on binaryfreedoms name, Binaryfreedom is NOT part of the open source 
community.
in my views I rather have 100 using FreeSoftware than 2000000 using 
non-free distros, period. and binaryfreedom is FreeSoftware activist I 
cant make this more clear.

About Ubuntu you can do whatever you like obviosly just don't announce 
it on binaryfreedom.




Ringo Kamens wrote:
> Rek2: I am able to help people with Ubuntu and that isn't being done
> under the flag of BinaryFreedom. It's being done under my own name.
> Chill out man.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, rek2GNU/Linux <rek2 at binaryfreedom.info> wrote:
>   
>> Ringo if is a different distro than gNewSense BinaryFreedom can't do
>> anything with it. please don't add anything related to LUG (GLUGS are
>> ok) or a non 100% distro to any of the binaryfreedom, pages, this will
>> be a huge irony.
>> I can agree or not with the results but that is not what I mean, what I
>> mean is that
>> we have to keep one path, and not contradict ourself. so anything not
>> 100% free
>> cant be promoted by binaryfreedom.
>>
>> Chris F.
>>
>>
>> Ringo Kamens wrote:
>>     
>>> Dear Brothers and Sisters,
>>> Not all people may have the expertise to install a free as in freedom
>>> operating system on their computer,
>>> which could be a great barrier for them even if they want to get rid
>>> of M$'s restrictive OS. We have created a page that will help people
>>> find GNU/Linux mentors.
>>>
>>> However I don't think it is rational to _only_ install "totally free"
>>> distro's like gNewsense. People may be dependent on different things
>>> and we shall help them 'free' as much of their computer as possible,
>>> not forcing our own solution down their throat. I myself would even
>>> merely convert their M$ document to OpenOffice document if that's the
>>> case.
>>>
>>> That said, you can't be familiar with every distro out there, so you
>>> might like to list distros that you are familiar with.
>>>
>>> http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Users_Help_Users
>>>
>>> Please add yourself to the list if you can help people in your area.
>>> The wiki page is at http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Users_Help_Users
>>> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> IndependentFreeSoftwareActivists mailing list
>>> IndependentFreeSoftwareActivists at binaryfreedom.info
>>> http://www.binaryfreedom.info/mailman/listinfo/independentfreesoftwareactivists
>>> List rules: http://www.binaryfreedom.info/?q=node/48
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> IndependentFreeSoftwareActivists mailing list
>> IndependentFreeSoftwareActivists at binaryfreedom.info
>> http://www.binaryfreedom.info/mailman/listinfo/independentfreesoftwareactivists
>> List rules: http://www.binaryfreedom.info/?q=node/48
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
>
> IndependentFreeSoftwareActivists mailing list
> IndependentFreeSoftwareActivists at binaryfreedom.info
> http://www.binaryfreedom.info/mailman/listinfo/independentfreesoftwareactivists
> List rules: http://www.binaryfreedom.info/?q=node/48
>   



From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 20:03:24 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:03:24 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Thank you Michel!
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011703v29f4479atc58331e0ab0392e8@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I have sent this to three mailing lists because I believe it is very
important. Please forward it to friends and other lists if you can. As
many of you have heard in the news recently, there is one man who has
single-handedly written GNU/Linux drivers for 352 different webcams.
That's right: three hundred fifty-two. He has received almost  no
recognition for his work and no compensation so we as members of the
GNU/Linux and free software movement want to thank him. Instead of
filling his inbox, we thought we would send a letter with all of his
supporter's names attached. Here is
a man who has tackled a major problem facing GNU/Linux and instead of
looking it and say "I'll just put in on my Windows box" decided to
take matters into his own hands. Please add your name to the list of
people who appreciate his work

Dear Michel,

This letter is being sent to you on behalf of the GNU/Linux and Free
Software communities by the team at Binary Freedom
(binaryfreedom.info). We know that you haven't received much
recognition for your work until recently when the media picked up the
story. We also did not know about the contributions you had made to
the community by writing all the webcam drivers that you did. We honor
you for the countless hours of work you have put into making
widespread GNU/Linux adoption a reality. Instead of just "putting it
on your other box" you took the problem head on and wrote drivers for
the entire community. Many people complain that GNU/Linux doesn't
offer good hardware support and now those claimed are weaker. In the
past 2-3 years, we have seen hardware support on GNU/Linux systems
grow by leaps and bounds. Now with the widespread adoption of
GNU/Linux systems is becoming apparent that yes, we can take the
entire market and drive Microsoft into the ground. Without hackers
like you, this wouldn't have happened and for that we thank you. So
from all of us in the community, we would like to thank you for your
tireless work.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
Comrade Ringo Kamens

Please become the undersigned by sending an email to
2600denver at gmail.com with your Name/Handle, City, and Country along
with a personal comment if you choose. (we will then compile the
emails and send it to him)
In Solidarity,
Comrade Ringo Kamens


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 20:07:41 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:07:41 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word
In-Reply-To: <38327.203.120.68.71.1178063947.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <d920a27f0704300825j1e76cbacy646d6186a1b717bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120704300829l39511e5elf9da74deb1834559@mail.gmail.com>
	<57525.203.120.68.66.1178025172.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<3922422b0705011338y6075d442l89dd53dd16c2b27@mail.gmail.com>
	<35886.192.169.41.44.1178063496.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<3922422b0705011653g1b9f6148je4fa86a4548dd1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<38327.203.120.68.71.1178063947.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011707m102864a5uc7202b42274e7acb@mail.gmail.com>

Your right, that's kind of an outlandish request. They wouldn't give
me an email, so here is their investor relations email. By buying a
CD, you could theoretically say you're in "investor"
Investor.Relations at wmg.com
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
>
> > Please make phone calls. They are much more effective and don't take
> > any longer. Info at defectivebydesign.org
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Emails to where?
> >> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >> >
> >> > On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Oh, didn't notice there was such graphics that I could use, thanks,
> >> >> > this would be great!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Now, has anyone seen the Warner Wake up call post on that site?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/warner_music_wake_up_call
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think Warener is very sturnborn and indeed needs a wake up
> >> call...
> >> >> > unfortunately I am not in the US, but those in the US should help
> >> out
> >> >> > if you can.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2007/5/1, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi
> >> >> <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
> >> >> >> Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and
> >> >> spread
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at
> >> >> >> www.tuxv.blogspot.com
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> cheers
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> >> >> >> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> >> >> >>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> >> >> >>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Don't send me word attachments.
> >> >> >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> We can send emails. Anyone has the contact details?
> >> >>
> >> >> Lam YongXian
> >> >> Adolf AT www.adolflam.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >> To Warner?
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Lam YongXian
> >> Adolflam.com
> >>
> >> FSF member #5279
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> You mean international phone calls?
>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 20:29:30 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:29:30 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Act In Solidarity And Use Civil Disobedience To
	Defeat DRM!
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011729j4e3e12fcwdf171ada4984e2c7@mail.gmail.com>

Communique from Comrade Ringo Kamens:
As many of you know, the MAFIAA and DVDCCA has been chasing after
people for distributing copies of DeCSS for years and is still issuing
cease and desist letters. With the release of HDDVD and Blue Ray they
again attempted to use DRM to restrict our rights and failed. It was
cracked fairly quickly and one of our fellow comrades recovered a
decryption key to use on these videos. Because of the work of these
brave brothers and sisters around the world, your fair use rights have
been restored (although you can't legally exercise them on DRMed
content). Almost immediately, the "intellectual property" owners
started their own cease and desist campaign to censor this valuable
key:
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS THEFT
That key can decrypt your movies so you can exercise your fair use
rights. Please distribute it as far and widely as possible. By posting
to these mailing lists, I have probably put it into a few hundred mail
boxes. What can you do? Write it on a wall, sticker it on your
computer, draw it in the sand. Host it on your site, whatever you do,
GET IT OUT THERE. if you put the key online and receive a Cease and
Desist letter it is up to you what you want to do. You may resist and
probably face a small risk of lawsuit but if you immediately remove
the content you will negate all that risk. While they still reserve
the right to sue or jail you, nobody has ever had that action taken
against them even when doing obvious acts of civil disobedience. If
you take it down, please send the C+D letter to chillingeffects.org
and forward it (headers and all) to 2600denver at gmail.com for legal and
historical reference. --We need to document this oppression so we can
fight it.-- Again, please distribute this key as far and wide as
possible. Put it in a song, send a letter to the editor of your
newspaper, etc. Thousands of your comrades online are already
distributing the key online. The key reached the front page of digg
twice (after being censored both times), reached the front page of
slashdot, reached the front page on reddit, and it already being
widely circulated. We need to keep up the circulation and keep
fighting this was until we win. Our comrades broke the encryption, now
do your duty and defend your rights. These brave souls have thrown the
first stone, don't let them die alone!

Yes, I'm asking you to break the law
Comrade Ringo Kamens


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:14:24 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:14:24 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>

For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
stone" for people to switch.

What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't use
it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
_restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.

And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
etc.

2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
>
> > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
> > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
> > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
> > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
> > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
> > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
> > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
> > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
> > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
> > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
> > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
> > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
> > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
> > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
> > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
> > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
> > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
> > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
> > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
> > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
> > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
> > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
> > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
> > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
> > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
> > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
> > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
> > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
> > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
> > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
> > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
> > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
> > Respectfully Submitted,
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> AN ANALOGY:
> We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
> already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
> Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
> satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That is
> what happened some of to those at OSI.
>
> Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
> forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:20:20 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:20:20 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011820l70fab11dlacd94a12a67997b4@mail.gmail.com>

Ubuntu is owned by Canonical which is a for-profit corporation. While
this is probably only established to shield them from legal liability,
the fact that it is a corporation will inevitably cause it to go the
wrong direction if it gets too much power.
http://www.canonical.com/
Comrade Ringo Kamens
On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
> For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
> personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
> stone" for people to switch.
>
> What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
> but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
> had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
> technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't use
> it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
> _restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.
>
> And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
> the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
> can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
> etc.
>
> 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> >
> > > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> > > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
> > > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
> > > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
> > > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
> > > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
> > > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
> > > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
> > > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
> > > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
> > > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
> > > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
> > > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
> > > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
> > > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
> > > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
> > > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> > > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
> > > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
> > > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
> > > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
> > > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
> > > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
> > > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
> > > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
> > > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
> > > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
> > > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
> > > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
> > > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
> > > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
> > > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
> > > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
> > > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
> > > Respectfully Submitted,
> > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> >
> > AN ANALOGY:
> > We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
> > already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
> > Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
> > satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That is
> > what happened some of to those at OSI.
> >
> > Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
> > forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
> >
> > ---
> > Lam YongXian
> > Adolflam.com
> >
> > FSF member #5279
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:26:32 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:26:32 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Act In Solidarity And Use Civil
	Disobedience To Defeat DRM!
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011729j4e3e12fcwdf171ada4984e2c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011729j4e3e12fcwdf171ada4984e2c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011826p49842190wf3ebddb0ad06de52@mail.gmail.com>

Would anybody be interested in stickers? I would be willing to buy in
bulk and can easily find homes for 100-200 of them. I will not give up
until this issue is won and I think by stickering things, we are
creating a permanent way to resist. Stickers would be about .50 to .75
US and you could have to do a minimum order of 20. I would buy a big
bulk order and then ship them out to anybody who wanted them. Of
course, they would have the HD-DVD code printed right on them.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> Communique from Comrade Ringo Kamens:
> As many of you know, the MAFIAA and DVDCCA has been chasing after
> people for distributing copies of DeCSS for years and is still issuing
> cease and desist letters. With the release of HDDVD and Blue Ray they
> again attempted to use DRM to restrict our rights and failed. It was
> cracked fairly quickly and one of our fellow comrades recovered a
> decryption key to use on these videos. Because of the work of these
> brave brothers and sisters around the world, your fair use rights have
> been restored (although you can't legally exercise them on DRMed
> content). Almost immediately, the "intellectual property" owners
> started their own cease and desist campaign to censor this valuable
> key:
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS THEFT
> That key can decrypt your movies so you can exercise your fair use
> rights. Please distribute it as far and widely as possible. By posting
> to these mailing lists, I have probably put it into a few hundred mail
> boxes. What can you do? Write it on a wall, sticker it on your
> computer, draw it in the sand. Host it on your site, whatever you do,
> GET IT OUT THERE. if you put the key online and receive a Cease and
> Desist letter it is up to you what you want to do. You may resist and
> probably face a small risk of lawsuit but if you immediately remove
> the content you will negate all that risk. While they still reserve
> the right to sue or jail you, nobody has ever had that action taken
> against them even when doing obvious acts of civil disobedience. If
> you take it down, please send the C+D letter to chillingeffects.org
> and forward it (headers and all) to 2600denver at gmail.com for legal and
> historical reference. --We need to document this oppression so we can
> fight it.-- Again, please distribute this key as far and wide as
> possible. Put it in a song, send a letter to the editor of your
> newspaper, etc. Thousands of your comrades online are already
> distributing the key online. The key reached the front page of digg
> twice (after being censored both times), reached the front page of
> slashdot, reached the front page on reddit, and it already being
> widely circulated. We need to keep up the circulation and keep
> fighting this was until we win. Our comrades broke the encryption, now
> do your duty and defend your rights. These brave souls have thrown the
> first stone, don't let them die alone!
>
> Yes, I'm asking you to break the law
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>


From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:28:34 2007
From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 06:58:34 +0530
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>

I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and what do you
think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the idea :P

On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
> would love to see it happen.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of other
> > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up a
> > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
> > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we could
> > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or setup. I
> > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
> server
> > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
> would
> > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
> >
> > Jacob
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>



-- 
\ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
.\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
  |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
  http://tuxv.blogspot.com

Don't send me word attachments.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:29:49 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:29:49 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>

We already have forums at their respective distros. I don't think the
average-joe computer user knows how to use IRC. A phone line is a
great idea if we have people who can man it via a phone or voip.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and what do you
> think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the idea :P
>
>
> On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
> > would love to see it happen.
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <
> indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> > > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of other
> > > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up a
> > > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
> > > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we could
> > > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or setup. I
> > > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
> server
> > > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
> would
> > > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
> > >
> > > Jacob
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> --
> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>    http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>
> Don't send me word attachments.
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Tue May  1 21:32:52 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 18:32:52 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT.
In-Reply-To: <200705011530.00348.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
References: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010848k16e8db7tebf92277c05f758e@mail.gmail.com>
	<46219.203.120.68.73.1178044294.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<200705011530.00348.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <26d2590705011832t6560d08eld40361bec0c50caf@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/1/07, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <manchicken at members.fsf.org> wrote:
> On Tuesday 01 May 2007 13:31:34 Lam YongXian wrote:
> > > 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> > >>The former one
> > >> will give us more people, but whats the use when they dun understand the
> > >> ultimate ideal of free software? It would just make us another group of
> > >> jealous people on Microsoft(R) success.
> > >
> > > However, if the motive for people to leave M$ is DRM, then we have won
> > > half of the battle.
> > >
> > > I have been reading all this posts, but I think it is going to be very
> > > ineffective if we are to hard-sell free and only free software. There
> > > are two things people are fighting for at the moment, DRM and closed
> > > software, they are 2 different things, and I think it is better to
> > > focus on DRM at the moment, everyone hates DRM when they finds out
> > > about it, but the same people may not hate closed software... we must
> > > first enlighten people about DRM, then promote free software as a
> > > secondary area.
> > >
> > >> ---
> > >> Lam YongXian
> > >> Adolflam.com
> > >>
> > >> FSF member #5279

I totally agree.  How many of you have actually tried to get Windows
users to try and then switch over to any Linux distro, not just one
that uses entirely free programs or drivers or whatever?  I will tell
you this if their hardware does not work they are not going to go out
and buy hardware that is compatible to Linux, point blank.  I do not
care how much you push freedom people just are not going to out lay
more money when economies are getting worst so they can use Linux.
People who use Windows feel that all their programs they are use to
and use should be available on Linux.
I seen this in the beginning of OpenSuse when it was a real Linux Open
Source distro then it turned to proprietary code to attract users,
then it made the worst mistake ever by selling out to Novell.  Now
there is talk of pulling out and forming our new SuSe distro, dumping
proprietary coding and going back to our original base.  We are
forming but there are questions, like where and how are we going to
get drivers to support what the majority of internet users have on
their computers?  I do not see any answers to that in here.  Users are
use to being able to watch DVD's, play games or whatever and we should
point our attentions in getting people off of Microsoft and then
convert them into base free Open Source distro.  I feel it would be a
lot easier getting them to drop Windows if they were offered something
resembling what they are leaving, then wean them off of that to
gNewSense or whatever.
Adobe is slowing leaning towards Open Source and Sun has already
announced Java support plus other programs.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Advocate mailing list
> > >> Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> > > --
> > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> > Yes, I am not ruling out the step by step strategy in doing this. We just
> > have to be careful not to lose our goal of free software (look at OSI).
> > And while in the process of doing so, not to mislead people on the goal.
> >
> > ---
> > Lam YongXian
> > Adolflam.com
> >
> > FSF member #5279
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> Freedom--and COMPLETE freedom at that--has been and still is the goal.  It's
> just taking time.  When GNU was first around, there was no way to run a free
> software operating system.  Now there is.  Ubuntu isn't the completely free
> solution that we want, but it is one that will help better the position of
> free software.  Let's keep calling it GNU/Linux, and let's keep pushing for
> freedom.  We'll use gNewSense, and we'll promote gNewSense (let's all make
> sure we're seeding it via torrents), and we should also rejoice that even
> though other folks aren't completely free due to poor licensing practices of
> hardware and software vendors, that they are magnitudes more free than they
> were.
>
> I also think that the increased adoption of Ubuntu will encourage
> manufacturers to release specs and software companies to free formats (how
> cool would it be if Flash was made a free format?).
>
> Yeah, we have those who like to stand on soap boxes and proclaim their moral
> superiority, and they may be right that they are more free... but if we keep
> increasing awareness and increasing freedom, and keep reminding people to
> value their freedom, we'll get where we're going.

ATI and Nvidia has released Linux free drivers to support most video
cards, and I have heard Flash is coming to Linux (Non-proprietary).
>
> --
> ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
> (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
> The number of the beast - vi vi vi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

Vista is a nitemare in the computer world.  It reduces and takes away
the rights of all computers users, whether they use it or not.  It
controls what a user can do and reports to Microsoft about all changes
one makes to hardware, software and any added feature.  DRM would not
be what it is today if it was not for the Microsoft push and with DRM
MS can control the user.  The lies:  Kernel control - but MS does not
state that this works only on 64 bit machines and not 32 bit (which
are the majority of all computers in the world).  Windows Genuine
Advantage WGA is stated as a MS protection against pirated softwares,
but in reality it is a program to spy on all Window users who install
it and now it validates every 6 months checking all hardware and
software on your computer.  If non MS supported software or hardware
is found it reduces the quality of your Vista operating system and
eventually makes it impossible to use for any computer purpose.  MS
Live is suppose to protect but it has failed security tests (this is a
non-issue as it will be corrected),  MS does not iterate that Vista
Home does not support Aero Glass or 3D and only if you spend more
money on upgrading to the next version and if only your video card
supports this feature (which is a norm for Windows).  And you all must
know that for Vista to be compatible with any Linux features you must
install a MS kit for this which is against all of our freedoms of
Linux to have anything from MS on our computers.  We all can thank
Novell for this kit.

This will be my last post to BadVista since I am adamantly against DRM
but I am also against forcing just one distro down on anyone using a
computer.  What happen to "Freedom of Choice" as I am not seeing this
in here.  While I love Linux I am against belittling anyone who uses
other Linux operating systems because they may not have any choice/may
be needed for their work or home use office/do not have the money to
buy hardware that supports Free Linux only.   I am against proprietary
code in any Linux factor but until Linux developers/hardware
makers/software makers get their act together and start developing
free Linux code we cannot just shut out the world.



George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From open07 at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:39:58 2007
From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 01:39:58 +0000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT.
In-Reply-To: <26d2590705011832t6560d08eld40361bec0c50caf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010848k16e8db7tebf92277c05f758e@mail.gmail.com>
	<46219.203.120.68.73.1178044294.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<200705011530.00348.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
	<26d2590705011832t6560d08eld40361bec0c50caf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <deb31e820705011839j619e3200l417955320aa8ffa9@mail.gmail.com>

> This will be my last post to BadVista since I am adamantly against DRM
> but I am also against forcing just one distro down on anyone using a
> computer.  What happen to "Freedom of Choice" as I am not seeing this
> in here.

Not one but quite many operating systems in fact. I am using BLAG,
another free distro. There are others like FreeDOS, ReactOS, etc ...


Regards

Koh Choon Lin
Singapore GNU Group

singapore.gnu.googlepages.com


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:40:23 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:40:23 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011820l70fab11dlacd94a12a67997b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011820l70fab11dlacd94a12a67997b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705011840h2b8ceb31q5d096abeb50a375d@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, didn't know that, perhaps it is only or legal liability, since the
very reason it was found is to fund the cost of shipping Ubuntu CD and
hire developers.

But the intention of Mark personally funding it is to promote Linux
itself, it may have different ways of accomplish the same goal but it
can't be that wrong.

And it is not like people who use Ubuntu are stuck to it.

2007/5/2, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com>:
> Ubuntu is owned by Canonical which is a for-profit corporation. While
> this is probably only established to shield them from legal liability,
> the fact that it is a corporation will inevitably cause it to go the
> wrong direction if it gets too much power.
> http://www.canonical.com/
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
> On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
> > personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
> > stone" for people to switch.
> >
> > What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
> > but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
> > had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
> > technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't use
> > it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
> > _restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.
> >
> > And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
> > the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
> > can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
> > etc.
> >
> > 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> > >
> > > > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> > > > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
> > > > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
> > > > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
> > > > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
> > > > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
> > > > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
> > > > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
> > > > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
> > > > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
> > > > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
> > > > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
> > > > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
> > > > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
> > > > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
> > > > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
> > > > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> > > > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
> > > > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
> > > > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
> > > > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
> > > > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
> > > > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
> > > > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
> > > > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
> > > > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
> > > > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
> > > > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
> > > > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
> > > > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
> > > > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
> > > > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
> > > > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
> > > > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
> > > > Respectfully Submitted,
> > > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > >
> > >
> > > AN ANALOGY:
> > > We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
> > > already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
> > > Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
> > > satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That is
> > > what happened some of to those at OSI.
> > >
> > > Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
> > > forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Lam YongXian
> > > Adolflam.com
> > >
> > > FSF member #5279
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:51:22 2007
From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:21:22 +0530
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d920a27f0705011851p2b9f0f77nba4d422d8a54c151@mail.gmail.com>

I thought IRC is better because we'll need lot of resources if we are to
seet up a phone service :) maybe we can create a step-by-step guide on how
to use IRC with the users chat client, and then they'll have no problems
with it.

Or have you seen QUNU (http://qunu.com/) if we can set up something like
that it'll be great. then there won't be any costs and usually we are logged
into our chat clients, so there won't be any problems :D

qunu just needs a jabber based account (google chat or something like that)
so we can help the users while we are using our computers

cheers

On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We already have forums at their respective distros. I don't think the
> average-joe computer user knows how to use IRC. A phone line is a
> great idea if we have people who can man it via a phone or voip.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and what do
> you
> > think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the idea
> :P
> >
> >
> > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
> > > would love to see it happen.
> > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > >
> > > On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <
> > indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> > > > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of
> other
> > > > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up
> a
> > > > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
> > > > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we
> could
> > > > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or
> setup. I
> > > > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
> > server
> > > > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
> > would
> > > > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
> > > >
> > > > Jacob
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> >    http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> >
> > Don't send me word attachments.
> > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>



-- 
\ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
.\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
  |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
  http://tuxv.blogspot.com

Don't send me word attachments.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:52:52 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:52:52 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT.
In-Reply-To: <26d2590705011832t6560d08eld40361bec0c50caf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705010848k16e8db7tebf92277c05f758e@mail.gmail.com>
	<46219.203.120.68.73.1178044294.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<200705011530.00348.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
	<26d2590705011832t6560d08eld40361bec0c50caf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705011852y6477a764uba28d5c62548e56c@mail.gmail.com>

2007/5/2, member greenarrow1 <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us>:
> On 5/1/07, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <manchicken at members.fsf.org> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 01 May 2007 13:31:34 Lam YongXian wrote:
> > > > 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> I totally agree.  How many of you have actually tried to get Windows
> users to try and then switch over to any Linux distro, not just one
> that uses entirely free programs or drivers or whatever?  I will tell
> you this if their hardware does not work they are not going to go out
> and buy hardware that is compatible to Linux, point blank.  I do not
> care how much you push freedom people just are not going to out lay
> more money when economies are getting worst so they can use Linux.
> People who use Windows feel that all their programs they are use to
> and use should be available on Linux.


Exactly.

I have been switching people to Linux and building Linux computer.
Even on computers that I built that I can avoid most propriety
drivers, I still have to install propriety codecs. People have large
collection of video and music these days I bet they won't be booting
into Linux if they know it can't play an mp3 on their network share.

Here's another thing, when people first try Linux they are most likely
be dual booting anyway, the Linux on it, free or not, is more of a
learning tool than a freedom tool at that stage. I bet people likes
freedom as much as you and me do, but they got to learn to know how
first!!!


>
>
>
> George
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:55:53 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:55:53 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <d920a27f0705011851p2b9f0f77nba4d422d8a54c151@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011851p2b9f0f77nba4d422d8a54c151@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705011855j1e3b9788ic46a3eec946643b1@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps we can make a strip down version of IRC that only connects to
only one channel and only one server, and do so automatically.

And for those who like the freedom of choice, they can use the real IRC client.

2007/5/2, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
> I thought IRC is better because we'll need lot of resources if we are to
> seet up a phone service :) maybe we can create a step-by-step guide on how
> to use IRC with the users chat client, and then they'll have no problems
> with it.
>
> Or have you seen QUNU (http://qunu.com/) if we can set up something like
> that it'll be great. then there won't be any costs and usually we are logged
> into our chat clients, so there won't be any problems :D
>
> qunu just needs a jabber based account (google chat or something like that)
> so we can help the users while we are using our computers
>
> cheers
>
>
> On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > We already have forums at their respective distros. I don't think the
> > average-joe computer user knows how to use IRC. A phone line is a
> > great idea if we have people who can man it via a phone or voip.
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and what do
> you
> > > think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the idea
> :P
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
> > > > would love to see it happen.
> > > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > > >
> > > > On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <
> > > indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com > wrote:
> > > > > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of
> other
> > > > > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up
> a
> > > > > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
> > > > > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we
> could
> > > > > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or
> setup. I
> > > > > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
> > > server
> > > > > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
> > > would
> > > > > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jacob
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> > > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> > >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> > >     http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > Don't send me word attachments.
> > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> --
> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
>
> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>    http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>
> Don't send me word attachments.
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:57:41 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:57:41 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705011855j1e3b9788ic46a3eec946643b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011851p2b9f0f77nba4d422d8a54c151@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705011855j1e3b9788ic46a3eec946643b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011857r6fee45b4y14b01ecc29ecc56a@mail.gmail.com>

Like a JAVA IRC client on a web page would work. I would def. idle in
the channel.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps we can make a strip down version of IRC that only connects to
> only one channel and only one server, and do so automatically.
>
> And for those who like the freedom of choice, they can use the real IRC client.
>
> 2007/5/2, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
> > I thought IRC is better because we'll need lot of resources if we are to
> > seet up a phone service :) maybe we can create a step-by-step guide on how
> > to use IRC with the users chat client, and then they'll have no problems
> > with it.
> >
> > Or have you seen QUNU (http://qunu.com/) if we can set up something like
> > that it'll be great. then there won't be any costs and usually we are logged
> > into our chat clients, so there won't be any problems :D
> >
> > qunu just needs a jabber based account (google chat or something like that)
> > so we can help the users while we are using our computers
> >
> > cheers
> >
> >
> > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > We already have forums at their respective distros. I don't think the
> > > average-joe computer user knows how to use IRC. A phone line is a
> > > great idea if we have people who can man it via a phone or voip.
> > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > >
> > > On 5/1/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and what do
> > you
> > > > think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the idea
> > :P
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
> > > > > would love to see it happen.
> > > > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <
> > > > indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com > wrote:
> > > > > > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of
> > other
> > > > > > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up
> > a
> > > > > > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
> > > > > > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we
> > could
> > > > > > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or
> > setup. I
> > > > > > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
> > > > server
> > > > > > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
> > > > would
> > > > > > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jacob
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> > > > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> > > >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> > > >     http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > Don't send me word attachments.
> > > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> >
> > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> >    http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> >
> > Don't send me word attachments.
> > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue May  1 21:58:09 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:58:09 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Act In Solidarity And Use Civil
	Disobedience To Defeat DRM!
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011826p49842190wf3ebddb0ad06de52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011729j4e3e12fcwdf171ada4984e2c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011826p49842190wf3ebddb0ad06de52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705011858u626e810cia947c07486468b15@mail.gmail.com>

So the code is for HD-DVD and Bluray?

If you happen to be burning your own HD-DVD, perhaps you can print the
code on the disc as well?

2007/5/2, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com>:
> Would anybody be interested in stickers? I would be willing to buy in
> bulk and can easily find homes for 100-200 of them. I will not give up
> until this issue is won and I think by stickering things, we are
> creating a permanent way to resist. Stickers would be about .50 to .75
> US and you could have to do a minimum order of 20. I would buy a big
> bulk order and then ship them out to anybody who wanted them. Of
> course, they would have the HD-DVD code printed right on them.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Communique from Comrade Ringo Kamens:
> > As many of you know, the MAFIAA and DVDCCA has been chasing after
> > people for distributing copies of DeCSS for years and is still issuing
> > cease and desist letters. With the release of HDDVD and Blue Ray they
> > again attempted to use DRM to restrict our rights and failed. It was
> > cracked fairly quickly and one of our fellow comrades recovered a
> > decryption key to use on these videos. Because of the work of these
> > brave brothers and sisters around the world, your fair use rights have
> > been restored (although you can't legally exercise them on DRMed
> > content). Almost immediately, the "intellectual property" owners
> > started their own cease and desist campaign to censor this valuable
> > key:
> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> > INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS THEFT
> > That key can decrypt your movies so you can exercise your fair use
> > rights. Please distribute it as far and widely as possible. By posting
> > to these mailing lists, I have probably put it into a few hundred mail
> > boxes. What can you do? Write it on a wall, sticker it on your
> > computer, draw it in the sand. Host it on your site, whatever you do,
> > GET IT OUT THERE. if you put the key online and receive a Cease and
> > Desist letter it is up to you what you want to do. You may resist and
> > probably face a small risk of lawsuit but if you immediately remove
> > the content you will negate all that risk. While they still reserve
> > the right to sue or jail you, nobody has ever had that action taken
> > against them even when doing obvious acts of civil disobedience. If
> > you take it down, please send the C+D letter to chillingeffects.org
> > and forward it (headers and all) to 2600denver at gmail.com for legal and
> > historical reference. --We need to document this oppression so we can
> > fight it.-- Again, please distribute this key as far and wide as
> > possible. Put it in a song, send a letter to the editor of your
> > newspaper, etc. Thousands of your comrades online are already
> > distributing the key online. The key reached the front page of digg
> > twice (after being censored both times), reached the front page of
> > slashdot, reached the front page on reddit, and it already being
> > widely circulated. We need to keep up the circulation and keep
> > fighting this was until we win. Our comrades broke the encryption, now
> > do your duty and defend your rights. These brave souls have thrown the
> > first stone, don't let them die alone!
> >
> > Yes, I'm asking you to break the law
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 22:01:14 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:01:14 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Act In Solidarity And Use Civil
	Disobedience To Defeat DRM!
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705011858u626e810cia947c07486468b15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011729j4e3e12fcwdf171ada4984e2c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011826p49842190wf3ebddb0ad06de52@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705011858u626e810cia947c07486468b15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011901k6b488edbu62d2cd331b1dbb94@mail.gmail.com>

It's only for HD-DVD.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
> So the code is for HD-DVD and Bluray?
>
> If you happen to be burning your own HD-DVD, perhaps you can print the
> code on the disc as well?
>
> 2007/5/2, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com>:
> > Would anybody be interested in stickers? I would be willing to buy in
> > bulk and can easily find homes for 100-200 of them. I will not give up
> > until this issue is won and I think by stickering things, we are
> > creating a permanent way to resist. Stickers would be about .50 to .75
> > US and you could have to do a minimum order of 20. I would buy a big
> > bulk order and then ship them out to anybody who wanted them. Of
> > course, they would have the HD-DVD code printed right on them.
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Communique from Comrade Ringo Kamens:
> > > As many of you know, the MAFIAA and DVDCCA has been chasing after
> > > people for distributing copies of DeCSS for years and is still issuing
> > > cease and desist letters. With the release of HDDVD and Blue Ray they
> > > again attempted to use DRM to restrict our rights and failed. It was
> > > cracked fairly quickly and one of our fellow comrades recovered a
> > > decryption key to use on these videos. Because of the work of these
> > > brave brothers and sisters around the world, your fair use rights have
> > > been restored (although you can't legally exercise them on DRMed
> > > content). Almost immediately, the "intellectual property" owners
> > > started their own cease and desist campaign to censor this valuable
> > > key:
> > > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> > > INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS THEFT
> > > That key can decrypt your movies so you can exercise your fair use
> > > rights. Please distribute it as far and widely as possible. By posting
> > > to these mailing lists, I have probably put it into a few hundred mail
> > > boxes. What can you do? Write it on a wall, sticker it on your
> > > computer, draw it in the sand. Host it on your site, whatever you do,
> > > GET IT OUT THERE. if you put the key online and receive a Cease and
> > > Desist letter it is up to you what you want to do. You may resist and
> > > probably face a small risk of lawsuit but if you immediately remove
> > > the content you will negate all that risk. While they still reserve
> > > the right to sue or jail you, nobody has ever had that action taken
> > > against them even when doing obvious acts of civil disobedience. If
> > > you take it down, please send the C+D letter to chillingeffects.org
> > > and forward it (headers and all) to 2600denver at gmail.com for legal and
> > > historical reference. --We need to document this oppression so we can
> > > fight it.-- Again, please distribute this key as far and wide as
> > > possible. Put it in a song, send a letter to the editor of your
> > > newspaper, etc. Thousands of your comrades online are already
> > > distributing the key online. The key reached the front page of digg
> > > twice (after being censored both times), reached the front page of
> > > slashdot, reached the front page on reddit, and it already being
> > > widely circulated. We need to keep up the circulation and keep
> > > fighting this was until we win. Our comrades broke the encryption, now
> > > do your duty and defend your rights. These brave souls have thrown the
> > > first stone, don't let them die alone!
> > >
> > > Yes, I'm asking you to break the law
> > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com  Tue May  1 22:31:04 2007
From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 08:01:04 +0530
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011857r6fee45b4y14b01ecc29ecc56a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011851p2b9f0f77nba4d422d8a54c151@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705011855j1e3b9788ic46a3eec946643b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011857r6fee45b4y14b01ecc29ecc56a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d920a27f0705011931t46929d24v793598a6ca257a80@mail.gmail.com>

I can write a tutorial/guide for newbie users on how to get connected to an
IRC using kopete. If you guys create an IRC channel for this please post in
this mailing list :)

cheers

On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Like a JAVA IRC client on a web page would work. I would def. idle in
> the channel.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps we can make a strip down version of IRC that only connects to
> > only one channel and only one server, and do so automatically.
> >
> > And for those who like the freedom of choice, they can use the real IRC
> client.
> >
> > 2007/5/2, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com
> >:
> > > I thought IRC is better because we'll need lot of resources if we are
> to
> > > seet up a phone service :) maybe we can create a step-by-step guide on
> how
> > > to use IRC with the users chat client, and then they'll have no
> problems
> > > with it.
> > >
> > > Or have you seen QUNU (http://qunu.com/) if we can set up something
> like
> > > that it'll be great. then there won't be any costs and usually we are
> logged
> > > into our chat clients, so there won't be any problems :D
> > >
> > > qunu just needs a jabber based account (google chat or something like
> that)
> > > so we can help the users while we are using our computers
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > We already have forums at their respective distros. I don't think
> the
> > > > average-joe computer user knows how to use IRC. A phone line is a
> > > > great idea if we have people who can man it via a phone or voip.
> > > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > > >
> > > > On 5/1/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <
> yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and
> what do
> > > you
> > > > > think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the
> idea
> > > :P
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it
> but I
> > > > > > would love to see it happen.
> > > > > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <
> > > > > indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com > wrote:
> > > > > > > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot
> of
> > > other
> > > > > > > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to
> set up
> > > a
> > > > > > > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the
> GNU/Linux
> > > > > > > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time,
> we
> > > could
> > > > > > > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed
> or
> > > setup. I
> > > > > > > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a
> TeamSpeak
> > > > > server
> > > > > > > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time.
> Unless FSF
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jacob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> > > > > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> > > > >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> > > > >     http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't send me word attachments.
> > > > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> > >
> > > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> > >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> > >    http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > Don't send me word attachments.
> > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>



-- 
\ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
.\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
  |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
  http://tuxv.blogspot.com

Don't send me word attachments.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 22:31:15 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:31:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47392.192.168.1.1.1178073075.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Look, we all agree that any step forward in the GNU/Linux direction is a
step in the right direction. But he's right. Binaryfreedom has already
posted their ideals and what they stand for. Rek already said that he
agreed to our opinion of Ubuntu being a step in the right direction. But
since Binaryfreedom's goals and statements are already out there, you
can't bend the rules. It's not to say that you can't endorse Ubuntu
outside of the binaryfreedom site. You just can't mention it as an
alternative ON THE WEBSITE. I get you, and I understand, Rek. Can we all
just get that? It's a losing battle fighting for it, anyway. And we'll
only tear ourselves apart over something so trivial.

Jacob

> For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
> personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
> stone" for people to switch.
>
> What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
> but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
> had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
> technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't use
> it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
> _restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.
>
> And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
> the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
> can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
> etc.
>
> 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
>>
>> > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
>> > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
>> > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
>> > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
>> > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
>> > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
>> > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
>> > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
>> > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
>> > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
>> > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
>> > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
>> > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
>> > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
>> > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
>> > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
>> > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
>> > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
>> > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
>> > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
>> > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
>> > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
>> > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
>> > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
>> > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
>> > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
>> > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
>> > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
>> > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
>> > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
>> > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
>> > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
>> > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
>> > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
>> > Respectfully Submitted,
>> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>> AN ANALOGY:
>> We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
>> already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
>> Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
>> satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That
>> is
>> what happened some of to those at OSI.
>>
>> Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
>> forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
>>
>> ---
>> Lam YongXian
>> Adolflam.com
>>
>> FSF member #5279
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 22:32:24 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:32:24 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <47392.192.168.1.1.1178073075.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47392.192.168.1.1.1178073075.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011932o60d3f067n3f51059d28f60e88@mail.gmail.com>

ok I'll take it off
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> Look, we all agree that any step forward in the GNU/Linux direction is a
> step in the right direction. But he's right. Binaryfreedom has already
> posted their ideals and what they stand for. Rek already said that he
> agreed to our opinion of Ubuntu being a step in the right direction. But
> since Binaryfreedom's goals and statements are already out there, you
> can't bend the rules. It's not to say that you can't endorse Ubuntu
> outside of the binaryfreedom site. You just can't mention it as an
> alternative ON THE WEBSITE. I get you, and I understand, Rek. Can we all
> just get that? It's a losing battle fighting for it, anyway. And we'll
> only tear ourselves apart over something so trivial.
>
> Jacob
>
> > For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
> > personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
> > stone" for people to switch.
> >
> > What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
> > but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
> > had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
> > technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't use
> > it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
> > _restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.
> >
> > And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
> > the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
> > can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
> > etc.
> >
> > 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> >>
> >> > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> >> > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
> >> > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
> >> > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
> >> > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
> >> > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
> >> > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
> >> > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
> >> > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
> >> > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
> >> > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
> >> > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
> >> > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
> >> > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
> >> > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
> >> > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
> >> > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> >> > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
> >> > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
> >> > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
> >> > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
> >> > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
> >> > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
> >> > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
> >> > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
> >> > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
> >> > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
> >> > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
> >> > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
> >> > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
> >> > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
> >> > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
> >> > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
> >> > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
> >> > Respectfully Submitted,
> >> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >> AN ANALOGY:
> >> We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
> >> already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
> >> Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
> >> satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That
> >> is
> >> what happened some of to those at OSI.
> >>
> >> Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
> >> forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Lam YongXian
> >> Adolflam.com
> >>
> >> FSF member #5279
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 22:35:16 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:35:16 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011932o60d3f067n3f51059d28f60e88@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47392.192.168.1.1.1178073075.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011932o60d3f067n3f51059d28f60e88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011935w5c089b8ar2469250e4527c67f@mail.gmail.com>

Instead of "Ubuntu, Gnewsense, Kubuntu, etc.", I put "All things
GNU/Linux" in the OS category. Is that an acceptable compromise? I
will make is Gnewsense only if I need to. (looking for a response from
rek2 here)
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> ok I'll take it off
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> > Look, we all agree that any step forward in the GNU/Linux direction is a
> > step in the right direction. But he's right. Binaryfreedom has already
> > posted their ideals and what they stand for. Rek already said that he
> > agreed to our opinion of Ubuntu being a step in the right direction. But
> > since Binaryfreedom's goals and statements are already out there, you
> > can't bend the rules. It's not to say that you can't endorse Ubuntu
> > outside of the binaryfreedom site. You just can't mention it as an
> > alternative ON THE WEBSITE. I get you, and I understand, Rek. Can we all
> > just get that? It's a losing battle fighting for it, anyway. And we'll
> > only tear ourselves apart over something so trivial.
> >
> > Jacob
> >
> > > For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
> > > personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
> > > stone" for people to switch.
> > >
> > > What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
> > > but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
> > > had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
> > > technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't use
> > > it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
> > > _restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.
> > >
> > > And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
> > > the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
> > > can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> > >>
> > >> > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> > >> > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
> > >> > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
> > >> > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
> > >> > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
> > >> > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
> > >> > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
> > >> > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
> > >> > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
> > >> > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
> > >> > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
> > >> > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
> > >> > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
> > >> > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
> > >> > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
> > >> > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
> > >> > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> > >> > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
> > >> > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
> > >> > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
> > >> > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
> > >> > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
> > >> > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
> > >> > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
> > >> > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
> > >> > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
> > >> > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
> > >> > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
> > >> > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
> > >> > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
> > >> > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
> > >> > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
> > >> > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
> > >> > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
> > >> > Respectfully Submitted,
> > >> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Advocate mailing list
> > >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> AN ANALOGY:
> > >> We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
> > >> already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
> > >> Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
> > >> satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That
> > >> is
> > >> what happened some of to those at OSI.
> > >>
> > >> Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
> > >> forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
> > >>
> > >> ---
> > >> Lam YongXian
> > >> Adolflam.com
> > >>
> > >> FSF member #5279
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Advocate mailing list
> > >> Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 22:36:16 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48003.192.168.1.1.1178073376.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

A forum would be okay, but that defeats the "real-time" strategem, you
know? But IRC would be okay, as long as it was well advertised, and it
didn't require any additional software. I know that when I was uber-noob,
I didn't ever use IRC because I thought you had to download another piece
of software. I think that other people would feel the same way. Especially
people who don't understand the idea of chatrooms, like your common user.

But if it came with the promise of speaking to a "real person," I think
people would be okay with downloading TeamSpeak. Just a thought.

Jacob

> I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and what do you
> think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the idea :P
>
> On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
>> would love to see it happen.
>> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>>
>> On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
>> > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of other
>> > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up a
>> > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
>> > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we could
>> > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or setup.
>> I
>> > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
>> server
>> > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
>> would
>> > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
>> >
>> > Jacob
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
>
> --
> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>
> Don't send me word attachments.
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 22:37:00 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:37:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48021.192.168.1.1.1178073420.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I agree. Totally.

Jacob

> We already have forums at their respective distros. I don't think the
> average-joe computer user knows how to use IRC. A phone line is a
> great idea if we have people who can man it via a phone or voip.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and what do
>> you
>> think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the idea
>> :P
>>
>>
>> On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
>> > would love to see it happen.
>> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
>> >
>> > On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <
>> indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
>> > > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of
>> other
>> > > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up
>> a
>> > > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
>> > > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we
>> could
>> > > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or
>> setup. I
>> > > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
>> server
>> > > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
>> would
>> > > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
>> > >
>> > > Jacob
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Advocate mailing list
>> > > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
>> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>>    http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>>
>> Don't send me word attachments.
>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue May  1 22:37:30 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:37:30 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <48003.192.168.1.1.1178073376.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
	<48003.192.168.1.1.1178073376.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705011937l7b080faer216cb8af77f70e06@mail.gmail.com>

I also remember when I was a uber-noob that I didn't do IRC because it
was too damn scary.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> A forum would be okay, but that defeats the "real-time" strategem, you
> know? But IRC would be okay, as long as it was well advertised, and it
> didn't require any additional software. I know that when I was uber-noob,
> I didn't ever use IRC because I thought you had to download another piece
> of software. I think that other people would feel the same way. Especially
> people who don't understand the idea of chatrooms, like your common user.
>
> But if it came with the promise of speaking to a "real person," I think
> people would be okay with downloading TeamSpeak. Just a thought.
>
> Jacob
>
> > I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and what do you
> > think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the idea :P
> >
> > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it but I
> >> would love to see it happen.
> >> Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >>
> >> On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> >> > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of other
> >> > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up a
> >> > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
> >> > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we could
> >> > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or setup.
> >> I
> >> > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
> >> server
> >> > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
> >> would
> >> > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
> >> >
> >> > Jacob
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
> >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
> >   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> >
> > Don't send me word attachments.
> > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Tue May  1 22:42:15 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:42:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011857r6fee45b4y14b01ecc29ecc56a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011851p2b9f0f77nba4d422d8a54c151@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705011855j1e3b9788ic46a3eec946643b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011857r6fee45b4y14b01ecc29ecc56a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37252.192.168.1.1.1178073735.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

That is a fantastic idea. It has to be "dummy proof." Not accusing normal
users of being dummies, but....I think that says it all.

Jacob

> Like a JAVA IRC client on a web page would work. I would def. idle in
> the channel.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps we can make a strip down version of IRC that only connects to
>> only one channel and only one server, and do so automatically.
>>
>> And for those who like the freedom of choice, they can use the real IRC
>> client.
>>
>> 2007/5/2, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi
>> <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>:
>> > I thought IRC is better because we'll need lot of resources if we are
>> to
>> > seet up a phone service :) maybe we can create a step-by-step guide on
>> how
>> > to use IRC with the users chat client, and then they'll have no
>> problems
>> > with it.
>> >
>> > Or have you seen QUNU (http://qunu.com/) if we can set up something
>> like
>> > that it'll be great. then there won't be any costs and usually we are
>> logged
>> > into our chat clients, so there won't be any problems :D
>> >
>> > qunu just needs a jabber based account (google chat or something like
>> that)
>> > so we can help the users while we are using our computers
>> >
>> > cheers
>> >
>> >
>> > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > We already have forums at their respective distros. I don't think
>> the
>> > > average-joe computer user knows how to use IRC. A phone line is a
>> > > great idea if we have people who can man it via a phone or voip.
>> > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
>> > >
>> > > On 5/1/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi
>> <yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > I think a IRC chat room will be easier for all the people, and
>> what do
>> > you
>> > > > think abt starting a forum :D just an idea tell me if you like the
>> idea
>> > :P
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > It's a great idea. I don't have a fast enough connection for it
>> but I
>> > > > > would love to see it happen.
>> > > > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <
>> > > > indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com > wrote:
>> > > > > > I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot
>> of
>> > other
>> > > > > > people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to
>> set up
>> > a
>> > > > > > chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the
>> GNU/Linux
>> > > > > > "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time,
>> we
>> > could
>> > > > > > assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed
>> or
>> > setup. I
>> > > > > > have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a
>> TeamSpeak
>> > > > server
>> > > > > > setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time.
>> Unless FSF
>> > > > would
>> > > > > > be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Jacob
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > > Advocate mailing list
>> > > > > > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > Advocate mailing list
>> > > > > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
>> > > > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>> > > >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>> > > >     http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>> > > >
>> > > > Don't send me word attachments.
>> > > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Advocate mailing list
>> > > > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Advocate mailing list
>> > > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
>> >
>> > .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>> >   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>> >    http://tuxv.blogspot.com
>> >
>> > Don't send me word attachments.
>> > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Tue May  1 23:11:21 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 23:11:21 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011857r6fee45b4y14b01ecc29ecc56a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>	<3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>	<d920a27f0705011851p2b9f0f77nba4d422d8a54c151@mail.gmail.com>	<b35fa3120705011855j1e3b9788ic46a3eec946643b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011857r6fee45b4y14b01ecc29ecc56a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46380159.8060606@gatech.edu>

Ringo Kamens wrote:
> Like a JAVA IRC client on a web page would work. I would def. idle in
> the channel.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens

We're in luck.  I found a completely libre Java client (builds with gcj,
classpath) albeit with a couple GUI problems (may or may not be related
to gcj and classpath).  There's a version setup for Wikipedia at
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~mflaschen3/irc/ .

Matt Flaschen


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Tue May  1 23:13:55 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 23:13:55 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705011840h2b8ceb31q5d096abeb50a375d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>	<b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>	<3922422b0705011820l70fab11dlacd94a12a67997b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705011840h2b8ceb31q5d096abeb50a375d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <463801F3.1090605@gatech.edu>

Sunnz wrote:
> Oh, didn't know that, perhaps it is only or legal liability, since the
> very reason it was found is to fund the cost of shipping Ubuntu CD and
> hire developers.
> 
> But the intention of Mark personally funding it is to promote Linux
> itself, it may have different ways of accomplish the same goal but it
> can't be that wrong.

Ubuntu does intend to become self-sustaining by selling support.  That
itself is great.  The only issue is the unfree software it still
includes and distributes.

Matt Flaschen


From improperintegral at gmail.com  Tue May  1 23:31:16 2007
From: improperintegral at gmail.com (Kevin Dwyer)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:31:16 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT.
In-Reply-To: <43610.203.120.68.71.1178033119.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <a22c6d110704300849n1d6a0d1s6ea275d190707a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<43610.203.120.68.71.1178033119.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <a22c6d110705012031n58231dedxc13109db1de97ca7@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/1/07, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com> wrote:
> I understand your concern. We all thought of that before. We are trying to
> teach you hoping that you'll understand, not alienating you =)

Oh, but I disagree.  First, I need no teaching nor lecturing on this
subject -- I'm well aware of the issues and I've made my choices.
Secondly, the tone has been holier than thou, which is what will
ultimately cause me to unsubscribe from this list.  I'm glad to see
that there are others voicing similar opinions, and who are not
interested in being bullied (thus proving my point.)


From improperintegral at gmail.com  Tue May  1 23:37:45 2007
From: improperintegral at gmail.com (Kevin Dwyer)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:37:45 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Virus
In-Reply-To: <4636C45A.6821.83BF71@d_n.Loryx.com>
References: <mailman.3.1177862401.21143.advocate@badvista.org>
	<7dc12d290704290957n206a937cl326ed5d63fa78a73@mail.gmail.com>
	<7dc12d290704291009r64341df2n16c74b15e092d4a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4636C45A.6821.83BF71@d_n.Loryx.com>
Message-ID: <a22c6d110705012037pb56b389s951302755f2f767d@mail.gmail.com>

Editorial:

shit-ozz?
Windoze?
M$?

Please stop using childish pseudonyms and leet-speak translations for
Microsoft and Windows.  It's unprofessional in a time when you're
allegedly trying to get the real world to take you seriously.  It
makes us all look bad.

This is not directed at any one person.  You know who you are.

-kpd

On 4/30/07, D'n Russler <d_n at loryx.com> wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2007 at 19:09, paolo del bene wrote:
>
> > please think to shit-ozz as a virus not as an operating system, and
> > so
> > all the problems are finished.
>
> pdb--
>
> I don't understand. When you say "shit-ozz", do you mean Vista?
>
> IMAO, all Windoze "systems" are applications (at best), from 95 through 2K
> through Vista, andare NOT "operating systems". As anyone who has either
> done a degree in Computer Science or read the classic (modern) works on
> O/S knows, the basic function of an O/S is to manage a computer's
> resources.
>
> Unfortunately, the Windoze family of application software fails to do this in
> many ways --  this is why all Windoze users need to cold-reboot their
> computers once every 24 or 48 hours, depending on their usage, because
> the application (W-2K, XP, and I assume Vista but I'm afraid to try it) simply
> does not keep any track of simple, basic things like files open, sockets
> used, and data channels assigned.
>
> >
> > operating system are others things:
> >
> > not free software (multics, unix, its, vms, mvs,  irix ) free
> > software
> > (gnu/linux gnu/hurd, gnu/kfreebsd),these are operating system
>
> > (shit-ozz is a joke) and is a virus
> >
>
> I have been referring to Windoze as "The Virus" for years now, as I'm sure
> many others do.  The Applications fit all the classic definitions of a virus; so
> any attempt by MS to make their Applications more "secure" only makes
> their virus-like behavior more dangerous.
>
> I didn't "upgrade" to XP, and I sure as hell won't go anywhere near Vista (*
> shudders at the thought *)
>
>
> > bye bye
> > pdb
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From improperintegral at gmail.com  Tue May  1 23:49:33 2007
From: improperintegral at gmail.com (Kevin Dwyer)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:49:33 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <a22c6d110705012049k417542f7m2d7a9e538755e2d3@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of other
> people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up a
> chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
> "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we could
> assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or setup. I
> have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak server
> setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF would
> be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.

This is verging on the absurd.

TeamSpeak isn't even Open Source much less "Free Software".

You'll have to wait for GNU/TeamSpeak.

-kpd


From improperintegral at gmail.com  Tue May  1 23:56:38 2007
From: improperintegral at gmail.com (Kevin Dwyer)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:56:38 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Good luck
Message-ID: <a22c6d110705012056lf687a0bl55f861ed791710f0@mail.gmail.com>

It's obvious to me that there is a major culture clash that exists
between me (perhaps others) and many of the BadVista members which is
not rectifiable.  I agree with your principles, but I think your
efforts are misguided and will ultimately injure your cause.

I won't bother you with any more input as it seems unwanted here.  I
wish you all good luck, because you're going to need it.

-kpd


From open07 at gmail.com  Wed May  2 00:22:25 2007
From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 04:22:25 +0000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Good luck
Message-ID: <deb31e820705012122k6ce1162fj2c9ec7e45efea605@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> It's obvious to me that there is a major culture clash that exists
> between me (perhaps others) and many of the BadVista members which is
> not rectifiable.  I agree with your principles, but I think your
> efforts are misguided and will ultimately injure your cause.

Dear Kevin Dwyer

I have no problem working in a non-free environment as long as I am
free. As long as our target is the same, which is freedom for everyone,
I do not see how much we can actually disagree. You mention about
recommending 99% free GNU+Linux distributions like Ubuntu to Windows
users. That is in line with our goal, assuming you had educated those
users about software freedom, with the eventual goal of using a 100%
free platform. All these migration takes time, I understand, even the
FSF has not finish moving away from Debian.

Thus, if a user approaches me for help in installing/using Ubuntu, I
would not refuse to help him. However, I would not recommend anyone
using those non-free software as a member of the free software movement.


Regards
Koh Choon Lin
Singapore GNU Group
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=NCkq
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From trmusson at ihug.co.nz  Wed May  2 01:12:40 2007
From: trmusson at ihug.co.nz (Timothy Musson)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 17:12:40 +1200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Thank you Michel!
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011703v29f4479atc58331e0ab0392e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011703v29f4479atc58331e0ab0392e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070502051240.GA24642@pratfall>

Ringo Kamens wrote:
> [...] Now with the widespread adoption of GNU/Linux systems is
> becoming apparent that yes, we can take the entire market and drive
> Microsoft into the ground. [...]

Ringo, I don't support non-Free software or individuals/companies that
produce it. But I'm not here to drive anyone into the ground. I won't
sign a letter with that kind of attitude.

Tim
-- 
trmusson at ihug.co.nz


From news at adolflam.com  Wed May  2 03:27:57 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:27:57 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011820l70fab11dlacd94a12a67997b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011820l70fab11dlacd94a12a67997b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <63467.164.78.248.57.1178090877.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> Ubuntu is owned by Canonical which is a for-profit corporation. While
> this is probably only established to shield them from legal liability,
> the fact that it is a corporation will inevitably cause it to go the
> wrong direction if it gets too much power.
> http://www.canonical.com/
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
> On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
>> personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
>> stone" for people to switch.
>>
>> What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
>> but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
>> had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
>> technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't use
>> it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
>> _restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.
>>
>> And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
>> the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
>> can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
>> etc.
>>
>> 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
>> >
>> > > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
>> > > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
>> > > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote
>> will
>> > > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one
>> of
>> > > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position
>> is
>> > > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
>> > > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am
>> forced
>> > > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
>> > > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
>> > > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as
>> free
>> > > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
>> > > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
>> > > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
>> > > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
>> > > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
>> > > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain
>> power.
>> > > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have
>> one
>> > > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They
>> will
>> > > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
>> > > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation.
>> RMS
>> > > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
>> > > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that
>> comes
>> > > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't
>> sacrifice
>> > > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to
>> make.
>> > > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
>> > > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights
>> and
>> > > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
>> > > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
>> > > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards
>> the
>> > > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
>> > > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
>> > > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
>> > > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not
>> do
>> > > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
>> > > Respectfully Submitted,
>> > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Advocate mailing list
>> > > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >
>> >
>> > AN ANALOGY:
>> > We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
>> > already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
>> > Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of
>> staying
>> > satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That
>> is
>> > what happened some of to those at OSI.
>> >
>> > Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
>> > forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Lam YongXian
>> > Adolflam.com
>> >
>> > FSF member #5279
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

Sounds more like a generalisation. It doesn't mean that a corporation will
eat freedom, nor that a non-profit organisation will always guarantee
freedom. Whatever it is, that is not the issue. It is just not free, and
for now, we should not promote it in the name of free software.

Take it this way, if someone ask the badvista,
1. what OS to switch to: we should recommend a free OS
3. what OS to switch to for complete freedom: definately recommend free OS
2. what OS that is more free, but will work easily: we can recommend
ubuntu and stuff

Hope you understand =)

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Wed May  2 06:40:45 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:40:45 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <63467.164.78.248.57.1178090877.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<b35fa3120705011814s1451eae1ibb4a3b03697a676f@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011820l70fab11dlacd94a12a67997b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<63467.164.78.248.57.1178090877.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705020340p2a57ec01j548c3436c5084661@mail.gmail.com>

Why don't we just tell the user that there are completely free OS like
gNewsense that may not work with everything and there are free OS with
non-free drivers like Ubuntu that is more likely to work with
everything and let the user make the choice?

My thought is that we should not mislead people that gNewsense is the
only distro and show them all the choices.

2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
>
> > Ubuntu is owned by Canonical which is a for-profit corporation. While
> > this is probably only established to shield them from legal liability,
> > the fact that it is a corporation will inevitably cause it to go the
> > wrong direction if it gets too much power.
> > http://www.canonical.com/
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > On 5/1/07, Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
> >> personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
> >> stone" for people to switch.
> >>
> >> What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
> >> but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
> >> had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
> >> technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't use
> >> it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
> >> _restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.
> >>
> >> And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
> >> the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
> >> can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> >> >
> >> > > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> >> > > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
> >> > > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote
> >> will
> >> > > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one
> >> of
> >> > > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position
> >> is
> >> > > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
> >> > > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am
> >> forced
> >> > > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
> >> > > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
> >> > > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as
> >> free
> >> > > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
> >> > > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
> >> > > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
> >> > > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
> >> > > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
> >> > > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain
> >> power.
> >> > > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have
> >> one
> >> > > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They
> >> will
> >> > > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
> >> > > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation.
> >> RMS
> >> > > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
> >> > > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that
> >> comes
> >> > > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't
> >> sacrifice
> >> > > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to
> >> make.
> >> > > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
> >> > > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights
> >> and
> >> > > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
> >> > > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
> >> > > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards
> >> the
> >> > > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
> >> > > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
> >> > > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
> >> > > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not
> >> do
> >> > > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
> >> > > Respectfully Submitted,
> >> > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Advocate mailing list
> >> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > AN ANALOGY:
> >> > We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
> >> > already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
> >> > Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of
> >> staying
> >> > satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That
> >> is
> >> > what happened some of to those at OSI.
> >> >
> >> > Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
> >> > forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> > Lam YongXian
> >> > Adolflam.com
> >> >
> >> > FSF member #5279
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> Sounds more like a generalisation. It doesn't mean that a corporation will
> eat freedom, nor that a non-profit organisation will always guarantee
> freedom. Whatever it is, that is not the issue. It is just not free, and
> for now, we should not promote it in the name of free software.
>
> Take it this way, if someone ask the badvista,
> 1. what OS to switch to: we should recommend a free OS
> 3. what OS to switch to for complete freedom: definately recommend free OS
> 2. what OS that is more free, but will work easily: we can recommend
> ubuntu and stuff
>
> Hope you understand =)
>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 07:25:24 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:25:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <46380159.8060606@gatech.edu>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<3922422b0705011550q6a1d1f6fx6d5fb6a18a67d2b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011828h2f479fb0r2c8e048072ae6849@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011829r1ef40c31v2c4bd083211a0406@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0705011851p2b9f0f77nba4d422d8a54c151@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120705011855j1e3b9788ic46a3eec946643b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011857r6fee45b4y14b01ecc29ecc56a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46380159.8060606@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <10227.138.162.128.56.1178105124.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Even something like this would be great. GUI problems shouldn't be that
bad to work with, right? I mean, I'm not a java developer, so I don't know
what all it entails. And can we get badvista or binaryfreedom to host it?

Jacob

> Ringo Kamens wrote:
>> Like a JAVA IRC client on a web page would work. I would def. idle in
>> the channel.
>> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> We're in luck.  I found a completely libre Java client (builds with gcj,
> classpath) albeit with a couple GUI problems (may or may not be related
> to gcj and classpath).  There's a version setup for Wikipedia at
> http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~mflaschen3/irc/ .
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 07:34:08 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:34:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Virus
In-Reply-To: <a22c6d110705012037pb56b389s951302755f2f767d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1177862401.21143.advocate@badvista.org>
	<7dc12d290704290957n206a937cl326ed5d63fa78a73@mail.gmail.com>
	<7dc12d290704291009r64341df2n16c74b15e092d4a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4636C45A.6821.83BF71@d_n.Loryx.com>
	<a22c6d110705012037pb56b389s951302755f2f767d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33710.138.162.128.56.1178105648.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Thank you.

Though Kevin, here, is a little harsh in the way that he said it, he is
right. If you use these terms, any current Windows user can't possibly
take us seriously. And this gives the air of "holier than thou" that Kevin
was talking about in a previous e-mail.

Even in any postings that we do on the wiki sights needs to be in clear,
though maybe not precise, English, or Chinese, or Spanish, etc. I know
that this isn't your high-school or college language course, but it is
important that we at least appear professional. We will be able to further
our cause with a good image.

Jacob

> Editorial:
>
> shit-ozz?
> Windoze?
> M$?
>
> Please stop using childish pseudonyms and leet-speak translations for
> Microsoft and Windows.  It's unprofessional in a time when you're
> allegedly trying to get the real world to take you seriously.  It
> makes us all look bad.
>
> This is not directed at any one person.  You know who you are.
>
> -kpd
>
> On 4/30/07, D'n Russler <d_n at loryx.com> wrote:
>> On 29 Apr 2007 at 19:09, paolo del bene wrote:
>>
>> > please think to shit-ozz as a virus not as an operating system, and
>> > so
>> > all the problems are finished.
>>
>> pdb--
>>
>> I don't understand. When you say "shit-ozz", do you mean Vista?
>>
>> IMAO, all Windoze "systems" are applications (at best), from 95 through
>> 2K
>> through Vista, andare NOT "operating systems". As anyone who has either
>> done a degree in Computer Science or read the classic (modern) works on
>> O/S knows, the basic function of an O/S is to manage a computer's
>> resources.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the Windoze family of application software fails to do
>> this in
>> many ways --  this is why all Windoze users need to cold-reboot their
>> computers once every 24 or 48 hours, depending on their usage, because
>> the application (W-2K, XP, and I assume Vista but I'm afraid to try it)
>> simply
>> does not keep any track of simple, basic things like files open, sockets
>> used, and data channels assigned.
>>
>> >
>> > operating system are others things:
>> >
>> > not free software (multics, unix, its, vms, mvs,  irix ) free
>> > software
>> > (gnu/linux gnu/hurd, gnu/kfreebsd),these are operating system
>>
>> > (shit-ozz is a joke) and is a virus
>> >
>>
>> I have been referring to Windoze as "The Virus" for years now, as I'm
>> sure
>> many others do.  The Applications fit all the classic definitions of a
>> virus; so
>> any attempt by MS to make their Applications more "secure" only makes
>> their virus-like behavior more dangerous.
>>
>> I didn't "upgrade" to XP, and I sure as hell won't go anywhere near
>> Vista (*
>> shudders at the thought *)
>>
>>
>> > bye bye
>> > pdb
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 07:35:38 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:35:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <a22c6d110705012049k417542f7m2d7a9e538755e2d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42157.138.162.128.55.1178041896.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<a22c6d110705012049k417542f7m2d7a9e538755e2d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37988.138.162.128.56.1178105738.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

TeamSpeak was a simple reference because I don't know the other voice
products off of the top of my head. I've use TeamSpeak before. Like I
said, merely a reference.

Jacob

> On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
>> I just had a great idea. Of course, it's going to take a lot of other
>> people to say it's great to make it great. But if we were to set up a
>> chat-room and TeamSpeak server, we could use it as the GNU/Linux
>> "Hotline." If even a couple of people monitored it at a time, we could
>> assist people in real-time get their GNU/Linux systems fixed or setup. I
>> have a slow connection because my ISP sucks, but I have a TeamSpeak
>> server
>> setup. I'd be willing to donate some bandwidth and time. Unless FSF
>> would
>> be willing to setup a TeamSpeak server for that purpose.
>
> This is verging on the absurd.
>
> TeamSpeak isn't even Open Source much less "Free Software".
>
> You'll have to wait for GNU/TeamSpeak.
>
> -kpd
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 07:49:30 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:49:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate]  Free/Non-free Distribution
Message-ID: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

To all whom it concerns,

This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made it
clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an idea
that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot recommend
Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This DOES
NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora, etc. to
new users that consult us personally.

Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free distribution, or
use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally free
software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new "customer." It is
your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this pointless
arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain distributions.
Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday users,
write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that people can
Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just intellectual
about our ideals.

Thanks for your time,
Jacob



From sunnzy at gmail.com  Wed May  2 09:21:29 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:21:29 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>

We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just not
in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the suitable
options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.

I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
"purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros must
die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.

2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> To all whom it concerns,
>
> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made it
> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an idea
> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot recommend
> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This DOES
> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora, etc. to
> new users that consult us personally.
>
> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free distribution, or
> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally free
> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new "customer." It is
> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this pointless
> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain distributions.
> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday users,
> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that people can
> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just intellectual
> about our ideals.
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Jacob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Wed May  2 09:24:45 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:24:45 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Good luck
In-Reply-To: <deb31e820705012122k6ce1162fj2c9ec7e45efea605@mail.gmail.com>
References: <deb31e820705012122k6ce1162fj2c9ec7e45efea605@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705020624y2411929ap509e903daf3e6496@mail.gmail.com>

I think there's no reason why we can't work together. Much of the
quabbling was due to my own fights I was picking at BinaryFreedom but
from my understanding we may reccomend software like Ubuntu under the
BadVista flag.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/2/07, Koh Choon Lin <open07 at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> > It's obvious to me that there is a major culture clash that exists
> > between me (perhaps others) and many of the BadVista members which is
> > not rectifiable.  I agree with your principles, but I think your
> > efforts are misguided and will ultimately injure your cause.
>
> Dear Kevin Dwyer
>
> I have no problem working in a non-free environment as long as I am
> free. As long as our target is the same, which is freedom for everyone,
> I do not see how much we can actually disagree. You mention about
> recommending 99% free GNU+Linux distributions like Ubuntu to Windows
> users. That is in line with our goal, assuming you had educated those
> users about software freedom, with the eventual goal of using a 100%
> free platform. All these migration takes time, I understand, even the
> FSF has not finish moving away from Debian.
>
> Thus, if a user approaches me for help in installing/using Ubuntu, I
> would not refuse to help him. However, I would not recommend anyone
> using those non-free software as a member of the free software movement.
>
>
> Regards
> Koh Choon Lin
> Singapore GNU Group
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFGOBHxZCXZ/5pksWURAhNFAKDIZPctdKc21PRWZnuZ5sHYawWqRQCgigw+
> ndA8XXn2hasIzJVU2WWQGUk=
> =NCkq
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 09:51:42 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:51:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are only
OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These are their
ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a lot more
work.

However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE distro
outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support or
endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name, nobody will
say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline" asking
for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would tactfully
help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them with
OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does not
officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can say
that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse and
support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.

Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE distro's.
Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.

Any questions?

Jacob

> We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just not
> in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the suitable
> options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
>
> I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
> "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros must
> die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
>
> 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> To all whom it concerns,
>>
>> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made it
>> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an idea
>> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
>> recommend
>> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This
>> DOES
>> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora, etc.
>> to
>> new users that consult us personally.
>>
>> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free distribution,
>> or
>> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally free
>> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
>> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new "customer." It
>> is
>> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this pointless
>> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain distributions.
>> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday users,
>> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that people can
>> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just intellectual
>> about our ideals.
>>
>> Thanks for your time,
>> Jacob
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 10:03:49 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 10:03:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <a22c6d110705020647s757137ej850696b8439f6e1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a22c6d110705020647s757137ej850696b8439f6e1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32304.138.162.128.38.1178114629.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

No worries. I have thick skin. But we really would like to have you on the
team, since you obviously came here for a purpose anyway, and you seem
knowledgeable about what we are fighting for. I know we have little
quarrels, but nothing too serious.

Jacob






> Jacob, sorry for the harsh reply.  The constant push for Free software
> and nothing else left me a little incredulous to see someone talking
> about using TeamSpeak.  :-)
>
> -kpd
>




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Wed May  2 10:47:09 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 00:47:09 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>

You more or less just repeated yourself.

Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk about
different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages, and
disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation of a
purely free distro - but people should know what options are out there
to choose from.

Is that clear?

Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
case decision.

2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are only
> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These are their
> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a lot more
> work.
>
> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE distro
> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support or
> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name, nobody will
> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline" asking
> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would tactfully
> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them with
> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does not
> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can say
> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse and
> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
>
> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE distro's.
> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
>
> Any questions?
>
> Jacob
>
> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just not
> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the suitable
> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
> >
> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros must
> > die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
> >
> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> To all whom it concerns,
> >>
> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made it
> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an idea
> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
> >> recommend
> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This
> >> DOES
> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora, etc.
> >> to
> >> new users that consult us personally.
> >>
> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free distribution,
> >> or
> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally free
> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
> >> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new "customer." It
> >> is
> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this pointless
> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain distributions.
> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday users,
> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that people can
> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just intellectual
> >> about our ideals.
> >>
> >> Thanks for your time,
> >> Jacob
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From Don at donhensley.com  Wed May  2 10:52:10 2007
From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:52:10 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <32304.138.162.128.38.1178114629.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <a22c6d110705020647s757137ej850696b8439f6e1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<32304.138.162.128.38.1178114629.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <200705020752.10726.Don@donhensley.com>


If anyone needs a refresher in what list spats are REALLY like, drop on over 
to the Linux kernel Dev's list.

So far this has been real friendly by comparison.

The thing is it takes some darned strong willed people to get anything done 
(at anything, not just software), and getting something done by way of 
advocacy is about the hardest of all.

By definition an advocate is someone that's going to be really, really, strong 
in his beliefs and opinions.

So yes, it takes a thick skin - and often a pause for 'breathing space'. As 
long as we all understand that, and remember that as strong as our own opines 
are, the other person has not only the right, but the obligation, to also 
have the strength of his opinions, then we'll all do fine and get something 
done here.

One of the things that has gotten a bit blurred here, is that the list we are 
on is a BadVista advocacy list, not a Binary Freedom List (which anyone may 
join if you'd like).

The two organizations are different in scope, but share many of the same goals 
- but not necessarily the exact same set of goals.

Binary Freedom has been nice enough to provide a wiki and other support for 
the BadVista advocacy use. But in essence when we are at Binary Freedom's 
site, we are guests, and as any good guest, we should try to stay within the 
house rules while we are there.

Ditto here on this BadVista list, and so on.

Not always easy to do, but then the main thing is to just realize that not one 
of us is immune from having an "oh oh, my bad" moment.

And as I've said before: "In my whole life, not once, not ever, have I learned 
anything from someone that agreed with me." Learning is one long job of 
reconciling yourself to trying to grasp what someone else is trying to say. 
It's not easy.

Now that is NOT to say that you ever have to agree with anyone, what the heck, 
they may be trying to 'teach' you something that you just know is wrong, and 
it's always going to stay wrong, no matter what they say.

The trick is to just go on and go forward when and where you can. Learn what 
you can. And mostly learn that true wisdom is in knowing what you want to 
ignore. The art of tact is to ignore as politely as possible... Just like the 
kernel Dev's do...  mostly...   ;)

Don.
 *****************************
 On Wednesday 02 May 2007 07:03 am, Jacob Maynard wrote:
I know we have little quarrels, but nothing too serious.

Jacob

-- 
GNU/Linux is the future.
Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 10:59:46 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 10:59:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are misunderstanding. You
and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what we agree
is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we were to be
expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's why we
have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites. And on
the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We may be
able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE distributions
are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can mention
on the site.

Is that better?

Jacob

> You more or less just repeated yourself.
>
> Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk about
> different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages, and
> disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation of a
> purely free distro - but people should know what options are out there
> to choose from.
>
> Is that clear?
>
> Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
> case decision.
>
> 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are only
>> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These are
>> their
>> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a lot
>> more
>> work.
>>
>> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE
>> distro
>> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support or
>> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name, nobody will
>> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline"
>> asking
>> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
>> tactfully
>> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them with
>> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does not
>> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can say
>> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse and
>> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
>>
>> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE distro's.
>> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
>>
>> Any questions?
>>
>> Jacob
>>
>> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just not
>> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the suitable
>> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
>> >
>> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
>> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros must
>> > die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
>> >
>> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> To all whom it concerns,
>> >>
>> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made
>> it
>> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an
>> idea
>> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
>> >> recommend
>> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This
>> >> DOES
>> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora,
>> etc.
>> >> to
>> >> new users that consult us personally.
>> >>
>> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
>> distribution,
>> >> or
>> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally
>> free
>> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
>> >> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new "customer."
>> It
>> >> is
>> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this
>> pointless
>> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
>> distributions.
>> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday users,
>> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that people
>> can
>> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
>> intellectual
>> >> about our ideals.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for your time,
>> >> Jacob
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Wed May  2 11:07:49 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:07:49 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <4638A945.9060502@gatech.edu>

Jacob Maynard wrote:
> To all whom it concerns,
> 
> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made it
> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an idea
> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot recommend
> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This DOES
> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora, etc. to
> new users that consult us personally.

That makes sense, especially if they request it.  I'd like to point out
that BadVista is not officially affiliated with BinaryFreedom.  If they
want to recommend unfree software BinaryFreedom wouldn't stop them;
however, BadVista is part of FSF which is about as firm on this.

Matt Flaschen


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Wed May  2 11:08:36 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 01:08:36 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>

You got to understand what I am really trying to say.

Listing level of free-ness, advantages, and disadvantages of different
distros are NOT expressing our opinion, just merely presenting FACTs.

If you are saying we are to write wiki's in such a way that leads to
viewers that thinks the there are only exists a limited, similar set
of distro, then sorry, it is not my cup of tea, I won't bother with
fsf/binaryfreedom anymore, however.

2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are misunderstanding. You
> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what we agree
> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we were to be
> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's why we
> have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites. And on
> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We may be
> able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE distributions
> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can mention
> on the site.
>
> Is that better?
>
> Jacob
>
> > You more or less just repeated yourself.
> >
> > Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk about
> > different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages, and
> > disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation of a
> > purely free distro - but people should know what options are out there
> > to choose from.
> >
> > Is that clear?
> >
> > Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
> > case decision.
> >
> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are only
> >> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These are
> >> their
> >> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a lot
> >> more
> >> work.
> >>
> >> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE
> >> distro
> >> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support or
> >> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name, nobody will
> >> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline"
> >> asking
> >> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
> >> tactfully
> >> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them with
> >> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does not
> >> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can say
> >> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse and
> >> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
> >>
> >> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE distro's.
> >> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
> >>
> >> Any questions?
> >>
> >> Jacob
> >>
> >> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just not
> >> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the suitable
> >> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
> >> >
> >> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
> >> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros must
> >> > die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
> >> >
> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> >> To all whom it concerns,
> >> >>
> >> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made
> >> it
> >> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an
> >> idea
> >> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
> >> >> recommend
> >> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This
> >> >> DOES
> >> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora,
> >> etc.
> >> >> to
> >> >> new users that consult us personally.
> >> >>
> >> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
> >> distribution,
> >> >> or
> >> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally
> >> free
> >> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
> >> >> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new "customer."
> >> It
> >> >> is
> >> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this
> >> pointless
> >> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
> >> distributions.
> >> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday users,
> >> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that people
> >> can
> >> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
> >> intellectual
> >> >> about our ideals.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks for your time,
> >> >> Jacob
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Wed May  2 11:09:28 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:09:28 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <4638A9A8.3070406@gatech.edu>

Jacob Maynard wrote:

> We may be able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
distributions
> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can mention
> on the site.
> 
> Is that better?

I think that's fine, with the caveat that gNewSense isn't really
completely free either (though it's trying to be).

Matt Flaschen


From news at adolflam.com  Wed May  2 11:09:56 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:09:56 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <200705020752.10726.Don@donhensley.com>
References: <a22c6d110705020647s757137ej850696b8439f6e1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<32304.138.162.128.38.1178114629.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<200705020752.10726.Don@donhensley.com>
Message-ID: <40808.192.169.41.34.1178118596.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


>
> If anyone needs a refresher in what list spats are REALLY like, drop on
> over
> to the Linux kernel Dev's list.
>
> So far this has been real friendly by comparison.
>
> The thing is it takes some darned strong willed people to get anything
> done
> (at anything, not just software), and getting something done by way of
> advocacy is about the hardest of all.
>
> By definition an advocate is someone that's going to be really, really,
> strong
> in his beliefs and opinions.
>
> So yes, it takes a thick skin - and often a pause for 'breathing space'.
> As
> long as we all understand that, and remember that as strong as our own
> opines
> are, the other person has not only the right, but the obligation, to also
> have the strength of his opinions, then we'll all do fine and get
> something
> done here.
>
> One of the things that has gotten a bit blurred here, is that the list we
> are
> on is a BadVista advocacy list, not a Binary Freedom List (which anyone
> may
> join if you'd like).
>
> The two organizations are different in scope, but share many of the same
> goals
> - but not necessarily the exact same set of goals.
>
> Binary Freedom has been nice enough to provide a wiki and other support
> for
> the BadVista advocacy use. But in essence when we are at Binary Freedom's
> site, we are guests, and as any good guest, we should try to stay within
> the
> house rules while we are there.
>
> Ditto here on this BadVista list, and so on.
>
> Not always easy to do, but then the main thing is to just realize that not
> one
> of us is immune from having an "oh oh, my bad" moment.
>
> And as I've said before: "In my whole life, not once, not ever, have I
> learned
> anything from someone that agreed with me." Learning is one long job of
> reconciling yourself to trying to grasp what someone else is trying to
> say.
> It's not easy.
>
> Now that is NOT to say that you ever have to agree with anyone, what the
> heck,
> they may be trying to 'teach' you something that you just know is wrong,
> and
> it's always going to stay wrong, no matter what they say.
>
> The trick is to just go on and go forward when and where you can. Learn
> what
> you can. And mostly learn that true wisdom is in knowing what you want to
> ignore. The art of tact is to ignore as politely as possible... Just like
> the
> kernel Dev's do...  mostly...   ;)
>
> Don.
>  *****************************
>  On Wednesday 02 May 2007 07:03 am, Jacob Maynard wrote:
> I know we have little quarrels, but nothing too serious.
>
> Jacob
>
> --
> GNU/Linux is the future.
> Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
> Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

I am sorry to tell you this but you are not going to learn anything from
this reply of mine. Because I strongly agree with you on this ;)

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From open07 at gmail.com  Wed May  2 11:14:35 2007
From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 23:14:35 +0800
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <4638A9A8.3070406@gatech.edu>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4638A9A8.3070406@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <1178118875.6184.1.camel@localhost>

> I think that's fine, with the caveat that gNewSense isn't really
> completely free either (though it's trying to be).

I do not know if gNewSense is really totally free or not. What I do know
is that they had made a commitment to use only free software and that is
enough to be endorsed.


Regards
Koh Choon Lin


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From Don at donhensley.com  Wed May  2 11:16:08 2007
From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 08:16:08 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help "Hotline"
In-Reply-To: <40808.192.169.41.34.1178118596.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <a22c6d110705020647s757137ej850696b8439f6e1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705020752.10726.Don@donhensley.com>
	<40808.192.169.41.34.1178118596.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <200705020816.08211.Don@donhensley.com>


Wrong. I learned something.

I never said you had to learn *everything*, FROM someone that disagreed with 
you.

It's also possible to learn about things from direct observation.

And I just observed that you have a fine wit. And gave me a great chuckle to 
start my day...

Don. 
 *************************
 On Wednesday 02 May 2007 08:09 am, Lam YongXian wrote:
I am sorry to tell you this but you are not going to learn anything from
this reply of mine. Because I strongly agree with you on this ;)

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279

-- 
GNU/Linux is the future.
Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Wed May  2 11:19:11 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 01:19:11 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea
In-Reply-To: <87zm4ow4gd.fsf@spider.localnet>
References: <b35fa3120704281028s40171f17k10fab44b09f0cd1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<34368.203.120.68.72.1178001271.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<87zm4ow4gd.fsf@spider.localnet>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705020819hd0dca0ej353adfc1801d8827@mail.gmail.com>

Warning: If you are easily offended, do not watch the following video.

http://tv.truenuff.com/mac/services.php

It is a mac spoof, made for entertainment than anything else.

However, I think the lesson to be learn from here is the truth-ness of
our own vid, if we ever get to make one.

If you have watched the vid, you will find that the statement about
free and open source is incorrect on many levels and misleading.

We DON'T want to make the same mistake in our own vid. Whatever the
bad thing we talk about Vista must be a realistic problem, not showing
a BSOD every second, or else it won't be taken seriously.

I am not saying anyone just done anything bad, we haven't even
organise a meeting about it yet, but I think it is something to keep
in mind with.

-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Wed May  2 11:22:15 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:22:15 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <4638ACA7.5000301@binaryfreedom.info>

Hi Jacob and company,
    sorry for my late response, last night after all the fire I decided
to go out to eat and give it some though, and basically
relax :-) so I have not pick any of my computers till I got to work this
morning and I have tons of emails in all my folders..
I have found the ones you respond, and I have to say thank you for
clearing it up,  what you mention is exactly what I mean,
personally I don't want to stop anyone from doing anything they feel is
right, but under the BinaryFreedom flag is different story,
can't let irony pop up on it, and I am glad you understood and didn't
take it personal.
About how to get "around" some thing I really have to give it more
thoughts and talk with my local members here in Boston, but I am sure of
one thing.. we can't contradict ourself and we are going to stay behind
the FreeSoftware ideals, in my personal opinion, we have a lot of
people(ESR), organizations(the linux foundation) and companies(RedHat,
Novell, IBM...) already supporting and pushing for this non-fully free
distros, and for people to move from other OS's to GNU/Linux, but we
have nobody other than the FSF that is pushing straight to
FreeSoftware only distros, and I know this sounds crazy and this may be
impossible, but this is binaryfreedoms dream to follow, please
respect that decision understanding our goals that may be the same ones
but with different paths. of couse I am just talking in the name of
BinaryFreedom and myself.

I am sure when all this gets sorted out we are going to be a stronger
group on BadVista, one thing is for sure..
when a lot of idealist people gets together  hehe ahem :-) lol so we
just have to learn how to not rub in our faces and coordinate efforts
there were we are compatible and were we are not compatible to respect
each other organization or ideals.

Thanks for everyones understanding.
Chris Fernandez
BinaryFreedom Founder.
gNewSense developer.


Jacob Maynard wrote:
> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are misunderstanding. You
> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what we agree
> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we were to be
> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's why we
> have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites. And on
> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We may be
> able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE distributions
> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can mention
> on the site.
>
> Is that better?
>
> Jacob
>
>   
>> You more or less just repeated yourself.
>>
>> Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk about
>> different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages, and
>> disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation of a
>> purely free distro - but people should know what options are out there
>> to choose from.
>>
>> Is that clear?
>>
>> Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
>> case decision.
>>
>> 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>>     
>>> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are only
>>> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These are
>>> their
>>> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a lot
>>> more
>>> work.
>>>
>>> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE
>>> distro
>>> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support or
>>> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name, nobody will
>>> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline"
>>> asking
>>> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
>>> tactfully
>>> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them with
>>> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does not
>>> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can say
>>> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse and
>>> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
>>>
>>> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE distro's.
>>> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
>>>
>>> Any questions?
>>>
>>> Jacob
>>>
>>>       
>>>> We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just not
>>>> in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the suitable
>>>> options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
>>>>
>>>> I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
>>>> "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros must
>>>> die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
>>>>
>>>> 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>>>>         
>>>>> To all whom it concerns,
>>>>>
>>>>> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made
>>>>>           
>>> it
>>>       
>>>>> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an
>>>>>           
>>> idea
>>>       
>>>>> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
>>>>> recommend
>>>>> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This
>>>>> DOES
>>>>> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora,
>>>>>           
>>> etc.
>>>       
>>>>> to
>>>>> new users that consult us personally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
>>>>>           
>>> distribution,
>>>       
>>>>> or
>>>>> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally
>>>>>           
>>> free
>>>       
>>>>> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
>>>>> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new "customer."
>>>>>           
>>> It
>>>       
>>>>> is
>>>>> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this
>>>>>           
>>> pointless
>>>       
>>>>> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
>>>>>           
>>> distributions.
>>>       
>>>>> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday users,
>>>>> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that people
>>>>>           
>>> can
>>>       
>>>>> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
>>>>>           
>>> intellectual
>>>       
>>>>> about our ideals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your time,
>>>>> Jacob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Advocate mailing list
>>>>> Advocate at badvista.org
>>>>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> --
>>>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>>>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Advocate mailing list
>>>> Advocate at badvista.org
>>>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Advocate mailing list
>>> Advocate at badvista.org
>>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>>
>>>       
>> --
>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>>     
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>   


-- 
FSF member #697
BinaryFreedom Founder
gNewSense Developer.
Freedom Figther.
the LOLOLO.


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From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Wed May  2 11:31:57 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 10:31:57 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <200705021031.57946.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Tuesday 01 May 2007 18:58:19 Lam YongXian wrote:
> > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
> > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
> > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
> > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
> > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
> > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
> > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
> > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
> > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
> > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
> > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
> > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
> > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
> > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
> > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
> > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
> > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
> > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
> > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
> > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
> > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
> > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
> > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
> > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
> > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
> > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
> > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
> > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
> > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
> > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
> > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
> > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
> > Respectfully Submitted,
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> AN ANALOGY:
> We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
> already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
> Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
> satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That is
> what happened some of to those at OSI.
>
> Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
> forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

That's a bit much.  Your analogy is inappropriate.  If you can't make 
analogies without exposing your self-righteous indignation, please just stay 
on topic.  I'm not interested in reading this anymore.  You don't like 
Ubuntu.  We get it.  Move on already.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
The number of the beast - vi vi vi


From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Wed May  2 11:38:21 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 10:38:21 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Act In Solidarity And Use Civil
	Disobedience To Defeat DRM!
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011826p49842190wf3ebddb0ad06de52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011729j4e3e12fcwdf171ada4984e2c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011826p49842190wf3ebddb0ad06de52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200705021038.21898.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Tuesday 01 May 2007 20:26:32 Ringo Kamens wrote:
> Would anybody be interested in stickers? I would be willing to buy in
> bulk and can easily find homes for 100-200 of them. I will not give up
> until this issue is won and I think by stickering things, we are
> creating a permanent way to resist. Stickers would be about .50 to .75
> US and you could have to do a minimum order of 20. I would buy a big
> bulk order and then ship them out to anybody who wanted them. Of
> course, they would have the HD-DVD code printed right on them.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Communique from Comrade Ringo Kamens:
> > As many of you know, the MAFIAA and DVDCCA has been chasing after
> > people for distributing copies of DeCSS for years and is still issuing
> > cease and desist letters. With the release of HDDVD and Blue Ray they
> > again attempted to use DRM to restrict our rights and failed. It was
> > cracked fairly quickly and one of our fellow comrades recovered a
> > decryption key to use on these videos. Because of the work of these
> > brave brothers and sisters around the world, your fair use rights have
> > been restored (although you can't legally exercise them on DRMed
> > content). Almost immediately, the "intellectual property" owners
> > started their own cease and desist campaign to censor this valuable
> > key:
> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> > INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS THEFT
> > That key can decrypt your movies so you can exercise your fair use
> > rights. Please distribute it as far and widely as possible. By posting
> > to these mailing lists, I have probably put it into a few hundred mail
> > boxes. What can you do? Write it on a wall, sticker it on your
> > computer, draw it in the sand. Host it on your site, whatever you do,
> > GET IT OUT THERE. if you put the key online and receive a Cease and
> > Desist letter it is up to you what you want to do. You may resist and
> > probably face a small risk of lawsuit but if you immediately remove
> > the content you will negate all that risk. While they still reserve
> > the right to sue or jail you, nobody has ever had that action taken
> > against them even when doing obvious acts of civil disobedience. If
> > you take it down, please send the C+D letter to chillingeffects.org
> > and forward it (headers and all) to 2600denver at gmail.com for legal and
> > historical reference. --We need to document this oppression so we can
> > fight it.-- Again, please distribute this key as far and wide as
> > possible. Put it in a song, send a letter to the editor of your
> > newspaper, etc. Thousands of your comrades online are already
> > distributing the key online. The key reached the front page of digg
> > twice (after being censored both times), reached the front page of
> > slashdot, reached the front page on reddit, and it already being
> > widely circulated. We need to keep up the circulation and keep
> > fighting this was until we win. Our comrades broke the encryption, now
> > do your duty and defend your rights. These brave souls have thrown the
> > first stone, don't let them die alone!
> >
> > Yes, I'm asking you to break the law
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

Let me know how much it'll be please and I'll see how much I can contribute.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
The number of the beast - vi vi vi


From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Wed May  2 11:41:13 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 10:41:13 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705011935w5c089b8ar2469250e4527c67f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011932o60d3f067n3f51059d28f60e88@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011935w5c089b8ar2469250e4527c67f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200705021041.14093.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Tuesday 01 May 2007 21:35:16 Ringo Kamens wrote:
> Instead of "Ubuntu, Gnewsense, Kubuntu, etc.", I put "All things
> GNU/Linux" in the OS category. Is that an acceptable compromise? I
> will make is Gnewsense only if I need to. (looking for a response from
> rek2 here)
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/1/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ok I'll take it off
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> > > Look, we all agree that any step forward in the GNU/Linux direction is
> > > a step in the right direction. But he's right. Binaryfreedom has
> > > already posted their ideals and what they stand for. Rek already said
> > > that he agreed to our opinion of Ubuntu being a step in the right
> > > direction. But since Binaryfreedom's goals and statements are already
> > > out there, you can't bend the rules. It's not to say that you can't
> > > endorse Ubuntu outside of the binaryfreedom site. You just can't
> > > mention it as an alternative ON THE WEBSITE. I get you, and I
> > > understand, Rek. Can we all just get that? It's a losing battle
> > > fighting for it, anyway. And we'll only tear ourselves apart over
> > > something so trivial.
> > >
> > > Jacob
> > >
> > > > For all I know Ubuntu isn't a corporation of any kind, it is still
> > > > personal funded by Mark Shuttleworth and it is an important "stepping
> > > > stone" for people to switch.
> > > >
> > > > What we are facing isn't just a straight free replacement of Windows,
> > > > but are promoting a free alternative that's different than what they
> > > > had. It is not just the freedom/moral that we are introducing but a
> > > > technically different beast that's GNU/Linux - and if people can't
> > > > use it, or use it to its fullest, then that's too bad, it is also as
> > > > _restriction_, albeit different restriction to DRM.
> > > >
> > > > And for that reason I would argue Ubuntu is a very important step in
> > > > the course, it is very likely to work on a Windows computer so people
> > > > can at least get their head around Linux learning its environment,
> > > > etc.
> > > >
> > > > 2007/5/2, Lam YongXian <news at adolflam.com>:
> > > >> > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
> > > >> > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it
> > > >> > but if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus
> > > >> > vote will be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion,
> > > >> > not the one of BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a
> > > >> > freer position is good. I think that it's better for people to
> > > >> > switch to non-free systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary
> > > >> > drivers (like I am forced to do) than continue to use Vista
> > > >> > because gnewsense doesn't work. While they are still sacrificing
> > > >> > freedoms, they are regaining their self-determination which they
> > > >> > did not have with Microsoft. We, as free software activists,
> > > >> > regardless of our personal beliefs on whether systems like Ubuntu
> > > >> > are truly free, should fearless promote such systems. I even would
> > > >> > rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of stay with Windows
> > > >> > because even then they are regaining
> > > >> > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch
> > > >> > people to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will
> > > >> > gain power. Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a
> > > >> > corporation have one responsibility: to demonstrate growth to
> > > >> > their stockholders. They will no longer care about ethics or
> > > >> > freedom and this isn't an attack on Ubuntu, it's developers, or
> > > >> > the community but on the corporation. RMS didn't get where he is
> > > >> > by compromising, but I believe that in some cases we must slowly
> > > >> > gain our ground. One such organization that comes to mind is the
> > > >> > IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice their
> > > >> > rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
> > > >> > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them.
> > > >> > By switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our
> > > >> > rights and as a result, I consider it not only better but to not
> > > >> > be in contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and
> > > >> > Rek2. I believe that all of these organizations are truly working
> > > >> > towards the common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I
> > > >> > wanted to present this alternative way of viewing things if they
> > > >> > had not been heard before. As of such, I will continue to present
> > > >> > things like Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list
> > > >> > however I will not do so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long
> > > >> > as Rek2's ruling stands. Respectfully Submitted,
> > > >> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> > > >> >
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > Advocate mailing list
> > > >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > >>
> > > >> AN ANALOGY:
> > > >> We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it
> > > >> is already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above
> > > >> hell. Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead
> > > >> of staying satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to
> > > >> in hell. That is
> > > >> what happened some of to those at OSI.
> > > >>
> > > >> Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay
> > > >> there forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach
> > > >> here =)
> > > >>
> > > >> ---
> > > >> Lam YongXian
> > > >> Adolflam.com
> > > >>
> > > >> FSF member #5279
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Advocate mailing list
> > > >> Advocate at badvista.org
> > > >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > > > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

I think promoting all distros with a special mention of the free ones is the 
best.  Maybe even label the ones that are more free.  Let's just do it in a 
tasteful way that will make us look more united and less divided.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
The number of the beast - vi vi vi


From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Wed May  2 11:45:27 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 10:45:27 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <200705021045.27765.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Wednesday 02 May 2007 06:49:30 Jacob Maynard wrote:
> To all whom it concerns,
>
> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made it
> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an idea
> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot recommend
> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This DOES
> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora, etc. to
> new users that consult us personally.
>
> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free distribution, or
> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally free
> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new "customer." It is
> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this pointless
> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain distributions.
> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday users,
> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that people can
> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just intellectual
> about our ideals.
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Jacob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

Seconded.  Let's try to stay on topic.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
The number of the beast - vi vi vi


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Wed May  2 11:56:00 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 01:56:00 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Act In Solidarity And Use Civil
	Disobedience To Defeat DRM!
In-Reply-To: <200705021038.21898.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
References: <3922422b0705011729j4e3e12fcwdf171ada4984e2c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705011826p49842190wf3ebddb0ad06de52@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705021038.21898.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705020856w170ae2f4p1540b60487d1381a@mail.gmail.com>

Ok I have hidden it all over my web site...

In fact one of my members have it in their sigs!

2007/5/3, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <manchicken at members.fsf.org>:
> On Tuesday 01 May 2007 20:26:32 Ringo Kamens wrote:
> > Would anybody be interested in stickers? I would be willing to buy in
> > bulk and can easily find homes for 100-200 of them. I will not give up
> > until this issue is won and I think by stickering things, we are
> > creating a permanent way to resist. Stickers would be about .50 to .75
> > US and you could have to do a minimum order of 20. I would buy a big
> > bulk order and then ship them out to anybody who wanted them. Of
> > course, they would have the HD-DVD code printed right on them.
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > On 5/1/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Communique from Comrade Ringo Kamens:
> > > As many of you know, the MAFIAA and DVDCCA has been chasing after
> > > people for distributing copies of DeCSS for years and is still issuing
> > > cease and desist letters. With the release of HDDVD and Blue Ray they
> > > again attempted to use DRM to restrict our rights and failed. It was
> > > cracked fairly quickly and one of our fellow comrades recovered a
> > > decryption key to use on these videos. Because of the work of these
> > > brave brothers and sisters around the world, your fair use rights have
> > > been restored (although you can't legally exercise them on DRMed
> > > content). Almost immediately, the "intellectual property" owners
> > > started their own cease and desist campaign to censor this valuable
> > > key:
> > > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> > > INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS THEFT
> > > That key can decrypt your movies so you can exercise your fair use
> > > rights. Please distribute it as far and widely as possible. By posting
> > > to these mailing lists, I have probably put it into a few hundred mail
> > > boxes. What can you do? Write it on a wall, sticker it on your
> > > computer, draw it in the sand. Host it on your site, whatever you do,
> > > GET IT OUT THERE. if you put the key online and receive a Cease and
> > > Desist letter it is up to you what you want to do. You may resist and
> > > probably face a small risk of lawsuit but if you immediately remove
> > > the content you will negate all that risk. While they still reserve
> > > the right to sue or jail you, nobody has ever had that action taken
> > > against them even when doing obvious acts of civil disobedience. If
> > > you take it down, please send the C+D letter to chillingeffects.org
> > > and forward it (headers and all) to 2600denver at gmail.com for legal and
> > > historical reference. --We need to document this oppression so we can
> > > fight it.-- Again, please distribute this key as far and wide as
> > > possible. Put it in a song, send a letter to the editor of your
> > > newspaper, etc. Thousands of your comrades online are already
> > > distributing the key online. The key reached the front page of digg
> > > twice (after being censored both times), reached the front page of
> > > slashdot, reached the front page on reddit, and it already being
> > > widely circulated. We need to keep up the circulation and keep
> > > fighting this was until we win. Our comrades broke the encryption, now
> > > do your duty and defend your rights. These brave souls have thrown the
> > > first stone, don't let them die alone!
> > >
> > > Yes, I'm asking you to break the law
> > > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> Let me know how much it'll be please and I'll see how much I can contribute.
>
> --
> ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
> (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
> The number of the beast - vi vi vi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


From news at adolflam.com  Wed May  2 12:08:48 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 00:08:48 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <1178118875.6184.1.camel@localhost>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4638A9A8.3070406@gatech.edu> <1178118875.6184.1.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <33531.192.169.41.44.1178122128.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


>> I think that's fine, with the caveat that gNewSense isn't really
>> completely free either (though it's trying to be).
>
> I do not know if gNewSense is really totally free or not. What I do know
> is that they had made a commitment to use only free software and that is
> enough to be endorsed.
>
>
> Regards
> Koh Choon Lin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

I think even I am starting to get confused with what our folks wants.
Maybe we have been confused by the agenda of badVista.

-FSF should only talk about the defination of what is 100% freedom. It is
the distributor's responsibility to decide if they will to follow. If they
do, FSF can happily had them to a list of recommened distro. Take note,
FSF does not bother about whether it is user friendly or not, whether it
is stable or not. Because FSF focus on the defination, not the usability.

-badVista campaign, this is the confusing part. Because now our folks has
to bother if users from Microsoft Windows can start with our
recommendations or not. We are now not dealing with those
Open-Source-trained wannabes, who has enough technical knowledge but
simply lack the values they need to make the sacrifice and give in. Who we
are going to deal with is those Microsoft-'trained' Windows users, who
most of them cannot even install a Windows OS themselves. It doesn't make
sense to have GNU/linux users still migrating to Windows Vista, they must
be nuts.

*Put it worse, badVista is initiated by FSF. Now, we have a double edged
sword. Like some suggested, to let the Windows-refugees get through the
basic of the basic first, a prerequisite course, before we can start
teaching them the real ideals.

+Saying: "Ubuntu is okay" maybe fine if we define this route properly:
Windows XP -> Ubuntu (OR ANY OPEN DISTRO) -> GNU/Linux DISTROS

+This had concerned many of us, because there are people who when over to
the _open_ community and forgotten about us. I dunno if we should risk
again.

So, because we are doing a campaign which crossed into the _Open_
communities' so-called sphere-of-influcence, it can be difficult for us.
We might and have to end up helping those we used to despise.

Another way is to By-pass the Open Source Community, by doing all the
education work ourselves. But in this way, we need lots of resources,
simple guidance like Windows to GNU/Linux migration, to teaching
GNU/RMS/FSF, all in one campaign called BadVista. Don't forget we still
have DRM? Windows Vista's technical flaw? Things that make them give up
Windows at the first place? Now we should know why we are confused,
shouldnt we?

Direction of BadVista is getting out of hand. We need to put them down in
writing.

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 12:11:27 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:11:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <4638A945.9060502@gatech.edu>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4638A945.9060502@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <58969.138.162.128.38.1178122287.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I write binaryfreedom in there because we have a wiki page with them.

Jacob.

> Jacob Maynard wrote:
>> To all whom it concerns,
>>
>> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has made it
>> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support an idea
>> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
>> recommend
>> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website. This
>> DOES
>> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora, etc.
>> to
>> new users that consult us personally.
>
> That makes sense, especially if they request it.  I'd like to point out
> that BadVista is not officially affiliated with BinaryFreedom.  If they
> want to recommend unfree software BinaryFreedom wouldn't stop them;
> however, BadVista is part of FSF which is about as firm on this.
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 12:16:44 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:16:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Maybe we are missing each other's point. I understand that you want to
mention that there are other "not-as-free" distro's out there. I again
stress that while we can mention it in a round-about way, we cannot
directly condone the use of a "semi-free" distribution being affilitated
with FSF and binaryfreedom. We can mention which distributions that are
good with a disclaimer of, "but this is not FREE in its entirety." You
understand?

While I agree that we should be able to express that Ubuntu is a good
distro, despite being only partially free, we must adhere to the ideals of
our hosts. They say only free, we are obligated not to say something
different, even though we feel it. Again, this only applies to the web
sites that they host on their servers.

Jacob

> You got to understand what I am really trying to say.
>
> Listing level of free-ness, advantages, and disadvantages of different
> distros are NOT expressing our opinion, just merely presenting FACTs.
>
> If you are saying we are to write wiki's in such a way that leads to
> viewers that thinks the there are only exists a limited, similar set
> of distro, then sorry, it is not my cup of tea, I won't bother with
> fsf/binaryfreedom anymore, however.
>
> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are misunderstanding.
>> You
>> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what we
>> agree
>> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we were to
>> be
>> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's why we
>> have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites. And
>> on
>> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
>> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We may be
>> able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
>> distributions
>> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
>> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can mention
>> on the site.
>>
>> Is that better?
>>
>> Jacob
>>
>> > You more or less just repeated yourself.
>> >
>> > Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk about
>> > different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages, and
>> > disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation of a
>> > purely free distro - but people should know what options are out there
>> > to choose from.
>> >
>> > Is that clear?
>> >
>> > Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
>> > case decision.
>> >
>> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are only
>> >> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These are
>> >> their
>> >> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a lot
>> >> more
>> >> work.
>> >>
>> >> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE
>> >> distro
>> >> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support or
>> >> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name, nobody
>> will
>> >> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline"
>> >> asking
>> >> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
>> >> tactfully
>> >> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them with
>> >> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does not
>> >> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can
>> say
>> >> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse
>> and
>> >> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
>> >>
>> >> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE
>> distro's.
>> >> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
>> >>
>> >> Any questions?
>> >>
>> >> Jacob
>> >>
>> >> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just
>> not
>> >> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the
>> suitable
>> >> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
>> >> >
>> >> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
>> >> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros must
>> >> > die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> >> To all whom it concerns,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has
>> made
>> >> it
>> >> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support
>> an
>> >> idea
>> >> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
>> >> >> recommend
>> >> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website.
>> This
>> >> >> DOES
>> >> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora,
>> >> etc.
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> new users that consult us personally.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
>> >> distribution,
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally
>> >> free
>> >> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
>> >> >> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new
>> "customer."
>> >> It
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this
>> >> pointless
>> >> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
>> >> distributions.
>> >> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday
>> users,
>> >> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that
>> people
>> >> can
>> >> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
>> >> intellectual
>> >> >> about our ideals.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks for your time,
>> >> >> Jacob
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Advocate mailing list
>> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 12:17:34 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:17:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <4638A9A8.3070406@gatech.edu>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4638A9A8.3070406@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <16141.138.162.128.38.1178122654.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Understood.

Jacob

> Jacob Maynard wrote:
>
>> We may be able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
> distributions
>> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
>> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can mention
>> on the site.
>>
>> Is that better?
>
> I think that's fine, with the caveat that gNewSense isn't really
> completely free either (though it's trying to be).
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From news at adolflam.com  Wed May  2 12:27:43 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 00:27:43 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
Message-ID: <52931.192.169.41.33.1178123263.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>

>> I think that's fine, with the caveat that gNewSense isn't really
>> completely free either (though it's trying to be).
>
> I do not know if gNewSense is really totally free or not. What I do know
> is that they had made a commitment to use only free software and that is
> enough to be endorsed.
>
>
> Regards
> Koh Choon Lin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

I think even I am starting to get confused with what our folks wants.
Maybe we have been confused by the agenda of badVista.

-FSF should only talk about the defination of what is 100% freedom. It is
the distributor's responsibility to decide if they will to follow. If they
do, FSF can happily had them to a list of recommened distro. Take note,
FSF does not bother about whether it is user friendly or not, whether it
is stable or not. Because FSF focus on the defination, not the usability.

-badVista campaign, this is the confusing part. Because now our folks has
to bother if users from Microsoft Windows can start with our
recommendations or not. We are now not dealing with those
Open-Source-trained wannabes, who has enough technical knowledge but
simply lack the values they need to make the sacrifice and give in. Who we
are going to deal with is those Microsoft-'trained' Windows users, who
most of them cannot even install a Windows OS themselves. It doesn't make
sense to have GNU/linux users still migrating to Windows Vista, they must
be nuts.

*Put it worse, we have a double edged sword. Like some suggested, to let
the Windows-refugees get through the basic of the basic first, a
prerequisite course, before we can start teaching them the real ideals.
What they mean is "Why bother talking about who made the drivers when my
system doesn't even boot?". But our FSF folks finds that: "if we let
ubuntu (a non-free distro) boot today, whats the different from booting it
from the old Windows?"

BadVista is initiated by FSF, is it going to follow every single rules? Or
can it have a 1-nation-2-policy concept? I this has become the main issue
here and is driving people away. Perhaps BadVista needs to list down its
complete agenda in writings, so people can decide to stay or leave.

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 12:31:14 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:31:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <33531.192.169.41.44.1178122128.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4638A9A8.3070406@gatech.edu> <1178118875.6184.1.camel@localhost>
	<33531.192.169.41.44.1178122128.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <1514.138.162.128.38.1178123474.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

And it has to boil down to this group doing a lot of work. We have lots of
resources through FSF and binaryfreedom, but we have to do the
"grunt-work" in creating simple "how-to" and interactive demonstrations of
GNU/Linux.

If you thought there wasn't going to be any work going on with this, it
would have been best not to have joined here. But we are happy to have
everyone we can. So if you have a skill, use it. Stickers are awesome.
Blurbs on Vista downfalls and threats are great. Interactive
demonstrations are even better. A commercial campaign, fantastic. The list
of awesome things goes on. Whatever you do, do it.

Jacob

>
>>> I think that's fine, with the caveat that gNewSense isn't really
>>> completely free either (though it's trying to be).
>>
>> I do not know if gNewSense is really totally free or not. What I do know
>> is that they had made a commitment to use only free software and that is
>> enough to be endorsed.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Koh Choon Lin
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
> I think even I am starting to get confused with what our folks wants.
> Maybe we have been confused by the agenda of badVista.
>
> -FSF should only talk about the defination of what is 100% freedom. It is
> the distributor's responsibility to decide if they will to follow. If they
> do, FSF can happily had them to a list of recommened distro. Take note,
> FSF does not bother about whether it is user friendly or not, whether it
> is stable or not. Because FSF focus on the defination, not the usability.
>
> -badVista campaign, this is the confusing part. Because now our folks has
> to bother if users from Microsoft Windows can start with our
> recommendations or not. We are now not dealing with those
> Open-Source-trained wannabes, who has enough technical knowledge but
> simply lack the values they need to make the sacrifice and give in. Who we
> are going to deal with is those Microsoft-'trained' Windows users, who
> most of them cannot even install a Windows OS themselves. It doesn't make
> sense to have GNU/linux users still migrating to Windows Vista, they must
> be nuts.
>
> *Put it worse, badVista is initiated by FSF. Now, we have a double edged
> sword. Like some suggested, to let the Windows-refugees get through the
> basic of the basic first, a prerequisite course, before we can start
> teaching them the real ideals.
>
> +Saying: "Ubuntu is okay" maybe fine if we define this route properly:
> Windows XP -> Ubuntu (OR ANY OPEN DISTRO) -> GNU/Linux DISTROS
>
> +This had concerned many of us, because there are people who when over to
> the _open_ community and forgotten about us. I dunno if we should risk
> again.
>
> So, because we are doing a campaign which crossed into the _Open_
> communities' so-called sphere-of-influcence, it can be difficult for us.
> We might and have to end up helping those we used to despise.
>
> Another way is to By-pass the Open Source Community, by doing all the
> education work ourselves. But in this way, we need lots of resources,
> simple guidance like Windows to GNU/Linux migration, to teaching
> GNU/RMS/FSF, all in one campaign called BadVista. Don't forget we still
> have DRM? Windows Vista's technical flaw? Things that make them give up
> Windows at the first place? Now we should know why we are confused,
> shouldnt we?
>
> Direction of BadVista is getting out of hand. We need to put them down in
> writing.
>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 12:32:32 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:32:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <52931.192.169.41.33.1178123263.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <52931.192.169.41.33.1178123263.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <6056.138.162.128.38.1178123552.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

But how can that happen if we can't decide our agenda ourselves? You are
right, of course. There's just that one little bump in the road.

Jacob

>>> I think that's fine, with the caveat that gNewSense isn't really
>>> completely free either (though it's trying to be).
>>
>> I do not know if gNewSense is really totally free or not. What I do know
>> is that they had made a commitment to use only free software and that is
>> enough to be endorsed.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Koh Choon Lin
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
> I think even I am starting to get confused with what our folks wants.
> Maybe we have been confused by the agenda of badVista.
>
> -FSF should only talk about the defination of what is 100% freedom. It is
> the distributor's responsibility to decide if they will to follow. If they
> do, FSF can happily had them to a list of recommened distro. Take note,
> FSF does not bother about whether it is user friendly or not, whether it
> is stable or not. Because FSF focus on the defination, not the usability.
>
> -badVista campaign, this is the confusing part. Because now our folks has
> to bother if users from Microsoft Windows can start with our
> recommendations or not. We are now not dealing with those
> Open-Source-trained wannabes, who has enough technical knowledge but
> simply lack the values they need to make the sacrifice and give in. Who we
> are going to deal with is those Microsoft-'trained' Windows users, who
> most of them cannot even install a Windows OS themselves. It doesn't make
> sense to have GNU/linux users still migrating to Windows Vista, they must
> be nuts.
>
> *Put it worse, we have a double edged sword. Like some suggested, to let
> the Windows-refugees get through the basic of the basic first, a
> prerequisite course, before we can start teaching them the real ideals.
> What they mean is "Why bother talking about who made the drivers when my
> system doesn't even boot?". But our FSF folks finds that: "if we let
> ubuntu (a non-free distro) boot today, whats the different from booting it
> from the old Windows?"
>
> BadVista is initiated by FSF, is it going to follow every single rules? Or
> can it have a 1-nation-2-policy concept? I this has become the main issue
> here and is driving people away. Perhaps BadVista needs to list down its
> complete agenda in writings, so people can decide to stay or leave.
>
> ---
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF member #5279
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Wed May  2 12:39:42 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 02:39:42 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>
	<13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>

Well I don't intend to put stuff they don't want on their wiki, that's
why I am still asking here and haven't really done anything yet. ;)

I'll wait till they respond.

And I understand that they want to endorse purely free distro, but my
concern it a bit different - I have no problem complying with them and
recommend purely free distro, I merely think that information should
be just as free as code, therefore presenting facts about not-so-free
distro and have a recommendation on an agreed purely-free distro.

I guess it is more of a "censorship" or "recommendation agreement" question.


2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> Maybe we are missing each other's point. I understand that you want to
> mention that there are other "not-as-free" distro's out there. I again
> stress that while we can mention it in a round-about way, we cannot
> directly condone the use of a "semi-free" distribution being affilitated
> with FSF and binaryfreedom. We can mention which distributions that are
> good with a disclaimer of, "but this is not FREE in its entirety." You
> understand?
>
> While I agree that we should be able to express that Ubuntu is a good
> distro, despite being only partially free, we must adhere to the ideals of
> our hosts. They say only free, we are obligated not to say something
> different, even though we feel it. Again, this only applies to the web
> sites that they host on their servers.
>
> Jacob
>
> > You got to understand what I am really trying to say.
> >
> > Listing level of free-ness, advantages, and disadvantages of different
> > distros are NOT expressing our opinion, just merely presenting FACTs.
> >
> > If you are saying we are to write wiki's in such a way that leads to
> > viewers that thinks the there are only exists a limited, similar set
> > of distro, then sorry, it is not my cup of tea, I won't bother with
> > fsf/binaryfreedom anymore, however.
> >
> > 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are misunderstanding.
> >> You
> >> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what we
> >> agree
> >> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we were to
> >> be
> >> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's why we
> >> have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites. And
> >> on
> >> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
> >> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We may be
> >> able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
> >> distributions
> >> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
> >> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can mention
> >> on the site.
> >>
> >> Is that better?
> >>
> >> Jacob
> >>
> >> > You more or less just repeated yourself.
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk about
> >> > different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages, and
> >> > disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation of a
> >> > purely free distro - but people should know what options are out there
> >> > to choose from.
> >> >
> >> > Is that clear?
> >> >
> >> > Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
> >> > case decision.
> >> >
> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> >> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are only
> >> >> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These are
> >> >> their
> >> >> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a lot
> >> >> more
> >> >> work.
> >> >>
> >> >> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE
> >> >> distro
> >> >> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support or
> >> >> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name, nobody
> >> will
> >> >> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline"
> >> >> asking
> >> >> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
> >> >> tactfully
> >> >> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them with
> >> >> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does not
> >> >> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can
> >> say
> >> >> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse
> >> and
> >> >> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
> >> >>
> >> >> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE
> >> distro's.
> >> >> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
> >> >>
> >> >> Any questions?
> >> >>
> >> >> Jacob
> >> >>
> >> >> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just
> >> not
> >> >> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the
> >> suitable
> >> >> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
> >> >> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros must
> >> >> > die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> >> >> To all whom it concerns,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has
> >> made
> >> >> it
> >> >> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support
> >> an
> >> >> idea
> >> >> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
> >> >> >> recommend
> >> >> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website.
> >> This
> >> >> >> DOES
> >> >> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or Fedora,
> >> >> etc.
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> new users that consult us personally.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
> >> >> distribution,
> >> >> >> or
> >> >> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only totally
> >> >> free
> >> >> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the not
> >> >> >> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new
> >> "customer."
> >> >> It
> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this
> >> >> pointless
> >> >> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
> >> >> distributions.
> >> >> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday
> >> users,
> >> >> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that
> >> people
> >> >> can
> >> >> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
> >> >> intellectual
> >> >> >> about our ideals.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Thanks for your time,
> >> >> >> Jacob
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 12:47:15 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:47:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>
	<13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <63867.138.162.128.38.1178124435.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

We can present facts about different distro's, no censorship (even though
they reserve that right since it is their server). We can mention that
they exist and mention pros and cons, we just must include the label, "Not
FREE as in FREEDOM." Therefore, we are not openly endorsing or supporting
the non-free distros, but they still get mentioned.

Jacob

> Well I don't intend to put stuff they don't want on their wiki, that's
> why I am still asking here and haven't really done anything yet. ;)
>
> I'll wait till they respond.
>
> And I understand that they want to endorse purely free distro, but my
> concern it a bit different - I have no problem complying with them and
> recommend purely free distro, I merely think that information should
> be just as free as code, therefore presenting facts about not-so-free
> distro and have a recommendation on an agreed purely-free distro.
>
> I guess it is more of a "censorship" or "recommendation agreement"
> question.
>
>
> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> Maybe we are missing each other's point. I understand that you want to
>> mention that there are other "not-as-free" distro's out there. I again
>> stress that while we can mention it in a round-about way, we cannot
>> directly condone the use of a "semi-free" distribution being affilitated
>> with FSF and binaryfreedom. We can mention which distributions that are
>> good with a disclaimer of, "but this is not FREE in its entirety." You
>> understand?
>>
>> While I agree that we should be able to express that Ubuntu is a good
>> distro, despite being only partially free, we must adhere to the ideals
>> of
>> our hosts. They say only free, we are obligated not to say something
>> different, even though we feel it. Again, this only applies to the web
>> sites that they host on their servers.
>>
>> Jacob
>>
>> > You got to understand what I am really trying to say.
>> >
>> > Listing level of free-ness, advantages, and disadvantages of different
>> > distros are NOT expressing our opinion, just merely presenting FACTs.
>> >
>> > If you are saying we are to write wiki's in such a way that leads to
>> > viewers that thinks the there are only exists a limited, similar set
>> > of distro, then sorry, it is not my cup of tea, I won't bother with
>> > fsf/binaryfreedom anymore, however.
>> >
>> > 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are misunderstanding.
>> >> You
>> >> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what we
>> >> agree
>> >> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we were
>> to
>> >> be
>> >> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's why
>> we
>> >> have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites.
>> And
>> >> on
>> >> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
>> >> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We may
>> be
>> >> able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
>> >> distributions
>> >> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
>> >> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can
>> mention
>> >> on the site.
>> >>
>> >> Is that better?
>> >>
>> >> Jacob
>> >>
>> >> > You more or less just repeated yourself.
>> >> >
>> >> > Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk
>> about
>> >> > different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages,
>> and
>> >> > disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation
>> of a
>> >> > purely free distro - but people should know what options are out
>> there
>> >> > to choose from.
>> >> >
>> >> > Is that clear?
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
>> >> > case decision.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> >> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are
>> only
>> >> >> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These
>> are
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a
>> lot
>> >> >> more
>> >> >> work.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE
>> >> >> distro
>> >> >> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support
>> or
>> >> >> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name,
>> nobody
>> >> will
>> >> >> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline"
>> >> >> asking
>> >> >> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
>> >> >> tactfully
>> >> >> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them
>> with
>> >> >> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does
>> not
>> >> >> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can
>> >> say
>> >> >> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse
>> >> and
>> >> >> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE
>> >> distro's.
>> >> >> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Any questions?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jacob
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site,
>> just
>> >> not
>> >> >> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the
>> >> suitable
>> >> >> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
>> >> >> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros
>> must
>> >> >> > die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> >> >> To all whom it concerns,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom
>> has
>> >> made
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not
>> support
>> >> an
>> >> >> idea
>> >> >> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we
>> cannot
>> >> >> >> recommend
>> >> >> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website.
>> >> This
>> >> >> >> DOES
>> >> >> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or
>> Fedora,
>> >> >> etc.
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> new users that consult us personally.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
>> >> >> distribution,
>> >> >> >> or
>> >> >> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only
>> totally
>> >> >> free
>> >> >> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the
>> not
>> >> >> >> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new
>> >> "customer."
>> >> >> It
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this
>> >> >> pointless
>> >> >> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
>> >> >> distributions.
>> >> >> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday
>> >> users,
>> >> >> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that
>> >> people
>> >> >> can
>> >> >> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
>> >> >> intellectual
>> >> >> >> about our ideals.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Thanks for your time,
>> >> >> >> Jacob
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Advocate mailing list
>> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Wed May  2 12:49:46 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 02:49:46 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <63867.138.162.128.38.1178124435.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>
	<13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<63867.138.162.128.38.1178124435.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705020949l43e396dcobd529f097dd46ff1@mail.gmail.com>

Exactly what I thought when I said "talk about freedom-ness,
advantages, and disadvantages of different distro's"; looks like we
finally agree on something!! :D

2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> We can present facts about different distro's, no censorship (even though
> they reserve that right since it is their server). We can mention that
> they exist and mention pros and cons, we just must include the label, "Not
> FREE as in FREEDOM." Therefore, we are not openly endorsing or supporting
> the non-free distros, but they still get mentioned.
>
> Jacob
>
> > Well I don't intend to put stuff they don't want on their wiki, that's
> > why I am still asking here and haven't really done anything yet. ;)
> >
> > I'll wait till they respond.
> >
> > And I understand that they want to endorse purely free distro, but my
> > concern it a bit different - I have no problem complying with them and
> > recommend purely free distro, I merely think that information should
> > be just as free as code, therefore presenting facts about not-so-free
> > distro and have a recommendation on an agreed purely-free distro.
> >
> > I guess it is more of a "censorship" or "recommendation agreement"
> > question.
> >
> >
> > 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> Maybe we are missing each other's point. I understand that you want to
> >> mention that there are other "not-as-free" distro's out there. I again
> >> stress that while we can mention it in a round-about way, we cannot
> >> directly condone the use of a "semi-free" distribution being affilitated
> >> with FSF and binaryfreedom. We can mention which distributions that are
> >> good with a disclaimer of, "but this is not FREE in its entirety." You
> >> understand?
> >>
> >> While I agree that we should be able to express that Ubuntu is a good
> >> distro, despite being only partially free, we must adhere to the ideals
> >> of
> >> our hosts. They say only free, we are obligated not to say something
> >> different, even though we feel it. Again, this only applies to the web
> >> sites that they host on their servers.
> >>
> >> Jacob
> >>
> >> > You got to understand what I am really trying to say.
> >> >
> >> > Listing level of free-ness, advantages, and disadvantages of different
> >> > distros are NOT expressing our opinion, just merely presenting FACTs.
> >> >
> >> > If you are saying we are to write wiki's in such a way that leads to
> >> > viewers that thinks the there are only exists a limited, similar set
> >> > of distro, then sorry, it is not my cup of tea, I won't bother with
> >> > fsf/binaryfreedom anymore, however.
> >> >
> >> > 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> >> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are misunderstanding.
> >> >> You
> >> >> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what we
> >> >> agree
> >> >> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we were
> >> to
> >> >> be
> >> >> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's why
> >> we
> >> >> have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites.
> >> And
> >> >> on
> >> >> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
> >> >> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We may
> >> be
> >> >> able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
> >> >> distributions
> >> >> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
> >> >> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can
> >> mention
> >> >> on the site.
> >> >>
> >> >> Is that better?
> >> >>
> >> >> Jacob
> >> >>
> >> >> > You more or less just repeated yourself.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk
> >> about
> >> >> > different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages,
> >> and
> >> >> > disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation
> >> of a
> >> >> > purely free distro - but people should know what options are out
> >> there
> >> >> > to choose from.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Is that clear?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
> >> >> > case decision.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> >> >> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are
> >> only
> >> >> >> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These
> >> are
> >> >> >> their
> >> >> >> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a
> >> lot
> >> >> >> more
> >> >> >> work.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE
> >> >> >> distro
> >> >> >> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support
> >> or
> >> >> >> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name,
> >> nobody
> >> >> will
> >> >> >> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline"
> >> >> >> asking
> >> >> >> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
> >> >> >> tactfully
> >> >> >> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them
> >> with
> >> >> >> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does
> >> not
> >> >> >> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website can
> >> >> say
> >> >> >> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse
> >> >> and
> >> >> >> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE
> >> >> distro's.
> >> >> >> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Any questions?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Jacob
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site,
> >> just
> >> >> not
> >> >> >> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the
> >> >> suitable
> >> >> >> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
> >> >> >> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros
> >> must
> >> >> >> > die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> >> >> >> To all whom it concerns,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom
> >> has
> >> >> made
> >> >> >> it
> >> >> >> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not
> >> support
> >> >> an
> >> >> >> idea
> >> >> >> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we
> >> cannot
> >> >> >> >> recommend
> >> >> >> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website.
> >> >> This
> >> >> >> >> DOES
> >> >> >> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or
> >> Fedora,
> >> >> >> etc.
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> new users that consult us personally.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
> >> >> >> distribution,
> >> >> >> >> or
> >> >> >> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only
> >> totally
> >> >> >> free
> >> >> >> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the
> >> not
> >> >> >> >> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new
> >> >> "customer."
> >> >> >> It
> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this
> >> >> >> pointless
> >> >> >> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
> >> >> >> distributions.
> >> >> >> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday
> >> >> users,
> >> >> >> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that
> >> >> people
> >> >> >> can
> >> >> >> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
> >> >> >> intellectual
> >> >> >> >> about our ideals.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Thanks for your time,
> >> >> >> >> Jacob
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Wed May  2 12:49:58 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:49:58 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200705021149.59030.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Wednesday 02 May 2007 11:39:42 Sunnz wrote:
> Well I don't intend to put stuff they don't want on their wiki, that's
> why I am still asking here and haven't really done anything yet. ;)
>
> I'll wait till they respond.
>
> And I understand that they want to endorse purely free distro, but my
> concern it a bit different - I have no problem complying with them and
> recommend purely free distro, I merely think that information should
> be just as free as code, therefore presenting facts about not-so-free
> distro and have a recommendation on an agreed purely-free distro.
>
> I guess it is more of a "censorship" or "recommendation agreement"
> question.
>
> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> > Maybe we are missing each other's point. I understand that you want to
> > mention that there are other "not-as-free" distro's out there. I again
> > stress that while we can mention it in a round-about way, we cannot
> > directly condone the use of a "semi-free" distribution being affilitated
> > with FSF and binaryfreedom. We can mention which distributions that are
> > good with a disclaimer of, "but this is not FREE in its entirety." You
> > understand?
> >
> > While I agree that we should be able to express that Ubuntu is a good
> > distro, despite being only partially free, we must adhere to the ideals
> > of our hosts. They say only free, we are obligated not to say something
> > different, even though we feel it. Again, this only applies to the web
> > sites that they host on their servers.
> >
> > Jacob
> >
> > > You got to understand what I am really trying to say.
> > >
> > > Listing level of free-ness, advantages, and disadvantages of different
> > > distros are NOT expressing our opinion, just merely presenting FACTs.
> > >
> > > If you are saying we are to write wiki's in such a way that leads to
> > > viewers that thinks the there are only exists a limited, similar set
> > > of distro, then sorry, it is not my cup of tea, I won't bother with
> > > fsf/binaryfreedom anymore, however.
> > >
> > > 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> > >> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are misunderstanding.
> > >> You
> > >> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what we
> > >> agree
> > >> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we were
> > >> to be
> > >> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's why
> > >> we have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites.
> > >> And on
> > >> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
> > >> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We may
> > >> be able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
> > >> distributions
> > >> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
> > >> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can
> > >> mention on the site.
> > >>
> > >> Is that better?
> > >>
> > >> Jacob
> > >>
> > >> > You more or less just repeated yourself.
> > >> >
> > >> > Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk about
> > >> > different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages, and
> > >> > disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation of
> > >> > a purely free distro - but people should know what options are out
> > >> > there to choose from.
> > >> >
> > >> > Is that clear?
> > >> >
> > >> > Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case by
> > >> > case decision.
> > >> >
> > >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> > >> >> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are
> > >> >> only OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's.
> > >> >> These are their
> > >> >> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a
> > >> >> lot more
> > >> >> work.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY FREE
> > >> >> distro
> > >> >> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never support
> > >> >> or endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name,
> > >> >> nobody
> > >>
> > >> will
> > >>
> > >> >> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our "hotline"
> > >> >> asking
> > >> >> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
> > >> >> tactfully
> > >> >> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them with
> > >> >> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista does
> > >> >> not officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website
> > >> >> can
> > >>
> > >> say
> > >>
> > >> >> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to endorse
> > >>
> > >> and
> > >>
> > >> >> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE
> > >>
> > >> distro's.
> > >>
> > >> >> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Any questions?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Jacob
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site, just
> > >>
> > >> not
> > >>
> > >> >> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the
> > >>
> > >> suitable
> > >>
> > >> >> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free distro.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound like
> > >> >> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros
> > >> >> > must die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> > >> >> >> To all whom it concerns,
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom has
> > >>
> > >> made
> > >>
> > >> >> it
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not support
> > >>
> > >> an
> > >>
> > >> >> idea
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we cannot
> > >> >> >> recommend
> > >> >> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the website.
> > >>
> > >> This
> > >>
> > >> >> >> DOES
> > >> >> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or
> > >> >> >> Fedora,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> etc.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> to
> > >> >> >> new users that consult us personally.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
> > >> >>
> > >> >> distribution,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> or
> > >> >> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only
> > >> >> >> totally
> > >> >>
> > >> >> free
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend the
> > >> >> >> not entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new
> > >>
> > >> "customer."
> > >>
> > >> >> It
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> is
> > >> >> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop this
> > >> >>
> > >> >> pointless
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
> > >> >>
> > >> >> distributions.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects everyday
> > >>
> > >> users,
> > >>
> > >> >> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that
> > >>
> > >> people
> > >>
> > >> >> can
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
> > >> >>
> > >> >> intellectual
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> about our ideals.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Thanks for your time,
> > >> >> >> Jacob
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
> > >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > --
> > >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> >> > Advocate mailing list
> > >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> Advocate mailing list
> > >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Advocate mailing list
> > >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Advocate mailing list
> > >> Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> > > --
> > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

I would avoid saying "NOT FREE"

Instead I would be more explicit by saying "includes some non-free drivers 
and/or software"

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 12:51:50 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:51:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705020949l43e396dcobd529f097dd46ff1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>
	<13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<63867.138.162.128.38.1178124435.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020949l43e396dcobd529f097dd46ff1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16938.138.162.128.38.1178124710.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

That's how we talk it out. I guess that you can start editing, now. And it
sounds like you have a lot to write about. ;)

Jacob

> Exactly what I thought when I said "talk about freedom-ness,
> advantages, and disadvantages of different distro's"; looks like we
> finally agree on something!! :D
>
> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> We can present facts about different distro's, no censorship (even
>> though
>> they reserve that right since it is their server). We can mention that
>> they exist and mention pros and cons, we just must include the label,
>> "Not
>> FREE as in FREEDOM." Therefore, we are not openly endorsing or
>> supporting
>> the non-free distros, but they still get mentioned.
>>
>> Jacob
>>
>> > Well I don't intend to put stuff they don't want on their wiki, that's
>> > why I am still asking here and haven't really done anything yet. ;)
>> >
>> > I'll wait till they respond.
>> >
>> > And I understand that they want to endorse purely free distro, but my
>> > concern it a bit different - I have no problem complying with them and
>> > recommend purely free distro, I merely think that information should
>> > be just as free as code, therefore presenting facts about not-so-free
>> > distro and have a recommendation on an agreed purely-free distro.
>> >
>> > I guess it is more of a "censorship" or "recommendation agreement"
>> > question.
>> >
>> >
>> > 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> Maybe we are missing each other's point. I understand that you want
>> to
>> >> mention that there are other "not-as-free" distro's out there. I
>> again
>> >> stress that while we can mention it in a round-about way, we cannot
>> >> directly condone the use of a "semi-free" distribution being
>> affilitated
>> >> with FSF and binaryfreedom. We can mention which distributions that
>> are
>> >> good with a disclaimer of, "but this is not FREE in its entirety."
>> You
>> >> understand?
>> >>
>> >> While I agree that we should be able to express that Ubuntu is a good
>> >> distro, despite being only partially free, we must adhere to the
>> ideals
>> >> of
>> >> our hosts. They say only free, we are obligated not to say something
>> >> different, even though we feel it. Again, this only applies to the
>> web
>> >> sites that they host on their servers.
>> >>
>> >> Jacob
>> >>
>> >> > You got to understand what I am really trying to say.
>> >> >
>> >> > Listing level of free-ness, advantages, and disadvantages of
>> different
>> >> > distros are NOT expressing our opinion, just merely presenting
>> FACTs.
>> >> >
>> >> > If you are saying we are to write wiki's in such a way that leads
>> to
>> >> > viewers that thinks the there are only exists a limited, similar
>> set
>> >> > of distro, then sorry, it is not my cup of tea, I won't bother with
>> >> > fsf/binaryfreedom anymore, however.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> >> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are
>> misunderstanding.
>> >> >> You
>> >> >> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what
>> we
>> >> >> agree
>> >> >> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we
>> were
>> >> to
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's
>> why
>> >> we
>> >> >> have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the sites.
>> >> And
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
>> >> >> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We
>> may
>> >> be
>> >> >> able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
>> >> >> distributions
>> >> >> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are
>> Ubuntu,
>> >> >> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can
>> >> mention
>> >> >> on the site.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Is that better?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jacob
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > You more or less just repeated yourself.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk
>> >> about
>> >> >> > different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages,
>> >> and
>> >> >> > disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a
>> recommendation
>> >> of a
>> >> >> > purely free distro - but people should know what options are out
>> >> there
>> >> >> > to choose from.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Is that clear?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case
>> by
>> >> >> > case decision.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> >> >> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we
>> are
>> >> only
>> >> >> >> OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's. These
>> >> are
>> >> >> >> their
>> >> >> >> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means
>> a
>> >> lot
>> >> >> >> more
>> >> >> >> work.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY
>> FREE
>> >> >> >> distro
>> >> >> >> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never
>> support
>> >> or
>> >> >> >> endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name,
>> >> nobody
>> >> >> will
>> >> >> >> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our
>> "hotline"
>> >> >> >> asking
>> >> >> >> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
>> >> >> >> tactfully
>> >> >> >> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them
>> >> with
>> >> >> >> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista
>> does
>> >> not
>> >> >> >> officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our website
>> can
>> >> >> say
>> >> >> >> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to
>> endorse
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE
>> >> >> distro's.
>> >> >> >> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Any questions?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Jacob
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site,
>> >> just
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the
>> >> >> suitable
>> >> >> >> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free
>> distro.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound
>> like
>> >> >> >> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros
>> >> must
>> >> >> >> > die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> >> >> >> >> To all whom it concerns,
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom
>> >> has
>> >> >> made
>> >> >> >> it
>> >> >> >> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not
>> >> support
>> >> >> an
>> >> >> >> idea
>> >> >> >> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we
>> >> cannot
>> >> >> >> >> recommend
>> >> >> >> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the
>> website.
>> >> >> This
>> >> >> >> >> DOES
>> >> >> >> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or
>> >> Fedora,
>> >> >> >> etc.
>> >> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> >> new users that consult us personally.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
>> >> >> >> distribution,
>> >> >> >> >> or
>> >> >> >> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only
>> >> totally
>> >> >> >> free
>> >> >> >> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend
>> the
>> >> not
>> >> >> >> >> entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new
>> >> >> "customer."
>> >> >> >> It
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop
>> this
>> >> >> >> pointless
>> >> >> >> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
>> >> >> >> distributions.
>> >> >> >> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects
>> everyday
>> >> >> users,
>> >> >> >> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information
>> that
>> >> >> people
>> >> >> >> can
>> >> >> >> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
>> >> >> >> intellectual
>> >> >> >> >> about our ideals.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Thanks for your time,
>> >> >> >> >> Jacob
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> >> >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> > Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Advocate mailing list
>> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 12:52:38 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 12:52:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <200705021149.59030.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705021149.59030.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <19660.138.162.128.38.1178124758.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

You're probably right.

Jacob

> On Wednesday 02 May 2007 11:39:42 Sunnz wrote:
>> Well I don't intend to put stuff they don't want on their wiki, that's
>> why I am still asking here and haven't really done anything yet. ;)
>>
>> I'll wait till they respond.
>>
>> And I understand that they want to endorse purely free distro, but my
>> concern it a bit different - I have no problem complying with them and
>> recommend purely free distro, I merely think that information should
>> be just as free as code, therefore presenting facts about not-so-free
>> distro and have a recommendation on an agreed purely-free distro.
>>
>> I guess it is more of a "censorship" or "recommendation agreement"
>> question.
>>
>> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> > Maybe we are missing each other's point. I understand that you want to
>> > mention that there are other "not-as-free" distro's out there. I again
>> > stress that while we can mention it in a round-about way, we cannot
>> > directly condone the use of a "semi-free" distribution being
>> affilitated
>> > with FSF and binaryfreedom. We can mention which distributions that
>> are
>> > good with a disclaimer of, "but this is not FREE in its entirety." You
>> > understand?
>> >
>> > While I agree that we should be able to express that Ubuntu is a good
>> > distro, despite being only partially free, we must adhere to the
>> ideals
>> > of our hosts. They say only free, we are obligated not to say
>> something
>> > different, even though we feel it. Again, this only applies to the web
>> > sites that they host on their servers.
>> >
>> > Jacob
>> >
>> > > You got to understand what I am really trying to say.
>> > >
>> > > Listing level of free-ness, advantages, and disadvantages of
>> different
>> > > distros are NOT expressing our opinion, just merely presenting
>> FACTs.
>> > >
>> > > If you are saying we are to write wiki's in such a way that leads to
>> > > viewers that thinks the there are only exists a limited, similar set
>> > > of distro, then sorry, it is not my cup of tea, I won't bother with
>> > > fsf/binaryfreedom anymore, however.
>> > >
>> > > 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> > >> See, this is why I repeated myself, because you are
>> misunderstanding.
>> > >> You
>> > >> and I can talk about any distribution we want right now, and what
>> we
>> > >> agree
>> > >> is one of the best distributions, purely free or not. But if we
>> were
>> > >> to be
>> > >> expressing these opinions on the sites, we would be wrong. That's
>> why
>> > >> we have to decide a PURELY FREE distribution to promote on the
>> sites.
>> > >> And on
>> > >> the sites, even mentioning non-free software on the sites could be
>> > >> construed as againts the intentions of binaryfreedom and FSF. We
>> may
>> > >> be able to get around that by saying, "Examples of PURELY FREE
>> > >> distributions
>> > >> are: gNewSense, etc. Examples of non-free distributions are Ubuntu,
>> > >> Fedora, etc." And I think that would be the limit to what we can
>> > >> mention on the site.
>> > >>
>> > >> Is that better?
>> > >>
>> > >> Jacob
>> > >>
>> > >> > You more or less just repeated yourself.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Perhaps I'll rephrase myself as well: we shall be able to talk
>> about
>> > >> > different distro, about their level of freedom-ness, advantages,
>> and
>> > >> > disavantages. However we shall all agree to have a recommendation
>> of
>> > >> > a purely free distro - but people should know what options are
>> out
>> > >> > there to choose from.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Is that clear?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Yes I agree that in a "hotline" situation, it is more of a case
>> by
>> > >> > case decision.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> > >> >> Again, on the sites, being part of binaryfreedom and FSF, we are
>> > >> >> only OFFICIALLY supporting and endorsing PURELY FREE distro's.
>> > >> >> These are their
>> > >> >> ideals, we must adhere to them or find a new home, which means a
>> > >> >> lot more
>> > >> >> work.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> However, if you take part in endorsing or supporting a MOSTLY
>> FREE
>> > >> >> distro
>> > >> >> outside of the website and ring of websites, and you never
>> support
>> > >> >> or endorse these distro's under the binaryfreedom and FSF name,
>> > >> >> nobody
>> > >>
>> > >> will
>> > >>
>> > >> >> say anything. For example, if someone was to contact our
>> "hotline"
>> > >> >> asking
>> > >> >> for help with OpenSuSE, would you turn them away? No. You would
>> > >> >> tactfully
>> > >> >> help them, but use a disclaimer saying that you will help them
>> with
>> > >> >> OpenSuSE, but binaryfreedom, FSF and, consequently, BadVista
>> does
>> > >> >> not officially support OpenSuSE. Does that make sense? Our
>> website
>> > >> >> can
>> > >>
>> > >> say
>> > >>
>> > >> >> that gNewSense is not the ONLY option. But we are bound to
>> endorse
>> > >>
>> > >> and
>> > >>
>> > >> >> support (officially) only PURELY FREE software.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Again, in the public's eye, we are only supporting PURELY FREE
>> > >>
>> > >> distro's.
>> > >>
>> > >> >> Outside of public view, any distro is fair game.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Any questions?
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Jacob
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > We could talk about non-purely-free distros on the web site,
>> just
>> > >>
>> > >> not
>> > >>
>> > >> >> > in the way of recommending it, right? Like presenting all the
>> > >>
>> > >> suitable
>> > >>
>> > >> >> > options, but make a recommended option of a purely-free
>> distro.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > I think the problem is that sometimes people make it sound
>> like
>> > >> >> > "purely-free distros are the only choice and 99% free distros
>> > >> >> > must die". It'll be good if we can make this point clear now.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > 2007/5/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> > >> >> >> To all whom it concerns,
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> This should be the final note on this subject. Binaryfreedom
>> has
>> > >>
>> > >> made
>> > >>
>> > >> >> it
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> clear what their goals and intentions are. They will not
>> support
>> > >>
>> > >> an
>> > >>
>> > >> >> idea
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> that promotes a non-free distribution. This means that we
>> cannot
>> > >> >> >> recommend
>> > >> >> >> Ubuntu and the likes (with binary only drivers) on the
>> website.
>> > >>
>> > >> This
>> > >>
>> > >> >> >> DOES
>> > >> >> >> NOT mean that we cannot recommend Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE, or
>> > >> >> >> Fedora,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> etc.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> to
>> > >> >> >> new users that consult us personally.
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Again, on the web sites, we must recommend a totally free
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> distribution,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> or
>> > >> >> >> use a vague statement that openly conveys support of only
>> > >> >> >> totally
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> free
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> software. However, there will be those of us who recommend
>> the
>> > >> >> >> not entirely free distributions when asked directly by a new
>> > >>
>> > >> "customer."
>> > >>
>> > >> >> It
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> is
>> > >> >> >> your decision regarding what YOU will support. Let's stop
>> this
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> pointless
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> arguing about why we should or shouldn't support certain
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> distributions.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Focus on discussing why DRM is bad and how it affects
>> everyday
>> > >>
>> > >> users,
>> > >>
>> > >> >> >> write them into a paragraph, and put up some information that
>> > >>
>> > >> people
>> > >>
>> > >> >> can
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Google and research. Let's be productive, rather than just
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> intellectual
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> about our ideals.
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Thanks for your time,
>> > >> >> >> Jacob
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> > >> >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> > >> >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > --
>> > >> >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > >> >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> > >> >> > Advocate mailing list
>> > >> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > >> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> >> Advocate mailing list
>> > >> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> > >> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> > >> >
>> > >> > _______________________________________________
>> > >> > Advocate mailing list
>> > >> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Advocate mailing list
>> > >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> > >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> > > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> > > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Advocate mailing list
>> > > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> I would avoid saying "NOT FREE"
>
> Instead I would be more explicit by saying "includes some non-free drivers
> and/or software"
>
> --
> ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
> (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From johns at fsf.org  Wed May  2 13:10:14 2007
From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 13:10:14 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
	(Sunnz's message of "Thu, 3 May 2007 02:39:42 +1000")
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>
	<13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87hcqvtamh.fsf@spider.localnet>

Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> writes:

> And I understand that they want to endorse purely free distro, but my
> concern it a bit different - I have no problem complying with them and
> recommend purely free distro, I merely think that information should
> be just as free as code, therefore presenting facts about not-so-free
> distro and have a recommendation on an agreed purely-free distro.
>
> I guess it is more of a "censorship" or "recommendation agreement" question.

The goal behind the campaign is to promote the ideals of free software. If our
goal were just adoption of GNU/Linux without regard to the reason behind it, we
would approach things much differently. But it's not---we do care about _why_
people switch to GNU/Linux.

We are not going to present facts as part of the official campaign about
distributions that are committed to distributing proprietary software, because
this would confuse our message. People can do this on their own, but we are not
going to do it as part of BadVista.org. 

By sticking to our principles and aiming for the highest ideals, we create more
space for free software like GNU/Linux. A variety of compromise distributions
may then fill some of this space. But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that
much of the partial progress that you are talking about comes as a result of
there being people clearly committed to not compromising.

As Christian has said several times, there are already dozens of groups
committed just to the goal of getting more people to use GNU/Linux for reasons
that don't have to do directly with ethics---it works better, it's not made by
a monopoly, etc. I'm sure many of those groups could use help too. But let's
put the right things in the right places.

-- 
John Sullivan
Campaigns Manager            | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org
51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl.  | Fax:   (617)542-2652	| http://www.gnu.org
Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA    | GPG:   AE8600B6          | http://www.fsf.org

"Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it
wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of
course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense."
    --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista"


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed May  2 13:14:29 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 13:14:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Free/Non-free Distribution
In-Reply-To: <87hcqvtamh.fsf@spider.localnet>
References: <20340.138.162.128.56.1178106570.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020621p9462810pb76412a515f03fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<48353.138.162.128.38.1178113902.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020747sd376d42i43a5ef4d77cc7889@mail.gmail.com>
	<2272.138.162.128.38.1178117986.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020808w38f3064bga9d39b6faeef9b18@mail.gmail.com>
	<13200.138.162.128.38.1178122604.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705020939j24fbce5bof949e990aec80aa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<87hcqvtamh.fsf@spider.localnet>
Message-ID: <40066.138.162.128.38.1178126069.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Thank you for putting it plainly, like I couldn't.

Jacob

> Sunnz <sunnzy at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> And I understand that they want to endorse purely free distro, but my
>> concern it a bit different - I have no problem complying with them and
>> recommend purely free distro, I merely think that information should
>> be just as free as code, therefore presenting facts about not-so-free
>> distro and have a recommendation on an agreed purely-free distro.
>>
>> I guess it is more of a "censorship" or "recommendation agreement"
>> question.
>
> The goal behind the campaign is to promote the ideals of free software. If
> our
> goal were just adoption of GNU/Linux without regard to the reason behind
> it, we
> would approach things much differently. But it's not---we do care about
> _why_
> people switch to GNU/Linux.
>
> We are not going to present facts as part of the official campaign about
> distributions that are committed to distributing proprietary software,
> because
> this would confuse our message. People can do this on their own, but we
> are not
> going to do it as part of BadVista.org.
>
> By sticking to our principles and aiming for the highest ideals, we create
> more
> space for free software like GNU/Linux. A variety of compromise
> distributions
> may then fill some of this space. But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact
> that
> much of the partial progress that you are talking about comes as a result
> of
> there being people clearly committed to not compromising.
>
> As Christian has said several times, there are already dozens of groups
> committed just to the goal of getting more people to use GNU/Linux for
> reasons
> that don't have to do directly with ethics---it works better, it's not
> made by
> a monopoly, etc. I'm sure many of those groups could use help too. But
> let's
> put the right things in the right places.
>
> --
> John Sullivan
> Campaigns Manager            | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 |
> http://badvista.org
> 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl.  | Fax:   (617)542-2652	| http://www.gnu.org
> Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA    | GPG:   AE8600B6          |
> http://www.fsf.org
>
> "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista
> because it
> wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins
> it, of
> course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense."
>     --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From news at adolflam.com  Wed May  2 13:16:30 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 01:16:30 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Rek2's Post on LUGs and GNULUGs
In-Reply-To: <200705021031.57946.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
References: <3922422b0705011641w37af1011lf732aa1bf520c17e@mail.gmail.com>
	<45480.203.120.68.69.1178063899.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
	<200705021031.57946.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <58889.192.169.41.44.1178126190.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> On Tuesday 01 May 2007 18:58:19 Lam YongXian wrote:
>> > I wanted to state my opinion on this issue. I recognize rek2's
>> > authority to make this decision and will therefore not oppose it but
>> > if the Binary Freedom community opposes it then a consensus vote will
>> > be made and the order overturned. My personal opinion, not the one of
>> > BinaryFreedom, is that any change that puts us in a freer position is
>> > good. I think that it's better for people to switch to non-free
>> > systems like Ubuntu and install proprietary drivers (like I am forced
>> > to do) than continue to use Vista because gnewsense doesn't work.
>> > While they are still sacrificing freedoms, they are regaining their
>> > self-determination which they did not have with Microsoft. We, as free
>> > software activists, regardless of our personal beliefs on whether
>> > systems like Ubuntu are truly free, should fearless promote such
>> > systems. I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of
>> > stay with Windows because even then they are regaining
>> > self-determination. The danger with this is that as we switch people
>> > to not truly free operating systems like Ubuntu, they will gain power.
>> > Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
>> > responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will
>> > no longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on
>> > Ubuntu, it's developers, or the community but on the corporation. RMS
>> > didn't get where he is by compromising, but I believe that in some
>> > cases we must slowly gain our ground. One such organization that comes
>> > to mind is the IWW who in their constitution say they can't sacrifice
>> > their rights at all however there is an important distinction to make.
>> > We are not giving up our rights, but we are slowly retaking them. By
>> > switching somebody to Ubuntu we are regaining _some_ of our rights and
>> > as a result, I consider it not only better but to not be in
>> > contradictions with the aim of the FSF, Binary Freedom, and Rek2. I
>> > believe that all of these organizations are truly working towards the
>> > common good however sometimes we get sidetracked and I wanted to
>> > present this alternative way of viewing things if they had not been
>> > heard before. As of such, I will continue to present things like
>> > Ubuntu to people as options on this mailing list however I will not do
>> > so under the flag of Binary Freedom as long as Rek2's ruling stands.
>> > Respectfully Submitted,
>> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>> AN ANALOGY:
>> We just have to make sure people dun enter ubuntu and think that it is
>> already heaven, but later found that they are just 1 level above hell.
>> Make sure that they remember to continue climbing up, instead of staying
>> satisfied at the level-above-hell like what they used to in hell. That
>> is
>> what happened some of to those at OSI.
>>
>> Some of us come from there, but we are definately not going stay there
>> forever. But it is somewhere we have to go through to reach here =)
>>
>> ---
>> Lam YongXian
>> Adolflam.com
>>
>> FSF member #5279
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> That's a bit much.  Your analogy is inappropriate.  If you can't make
> analogies without exposing your self-righteous indignation, please just
> stay
> on topic.  I'm not interested in reading this anymore.  You don't like
> Ubuntu.  We get it.  Move on already.
>
> --
> ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
> (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
> The number of the beast - vi vi vi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

Why do you have to anger yourself? I apologise if I said anything that is 
specifically offensive to you.

But at the first place, the issue wasn't just about ubuntu, but non-free
distro in general. And ubuntu isn't really being attacked, like you
claimed. It was just being defended from. We, and I, have nothing personal
against ubuntu.

A statement shouldnt be mixed up with a personal opinion =/

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From rkarlberg at mobilesoftware.com  Wed May  2 18:37:46 2007
From: rkarlberg at mobilesoftware.com (Russ Karlberg)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:37:46 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Frustrated Windows user
In-Reply-To: <mailman.412.1178105260.6247.advocate@badvista.org>
References: <mailman.412.1178105260.6247.advocate@badvista.org>
Message-ID: <007a01c78d0a$818efe90$84acfbb0$@com>

I have been a Windows user since 2.0.  I really liked using 3.0, 3.1, 95,
2000 and even XP, although the security problems were annoying.  I always
liked working with MSFT products and usually upgraded as soon as the Beta
was ready.

No more.  I tried Vista in Beta and absolutely hated it.  Installations took
forever, if they worked at all.  Bugs and annoyances abound.  Why do I need
2GB of RAM just for my OS??  Everything I do now is slower than my old
laptop, even though my new one is much more powerful.  I didn't want to
upgrade, but this new laptop came with Vista, they don't even offer any
other OS options.

I've tried Linux in the past, mostly I liked it a lot, but almost all the
software and games I use don't run on Linux.  So I'm interested to join this
effort to promote alternatives to MSFT.

I wonder if this group will go anywhere though.  There seems to be a lot of
bickering about the different flavors available.  Isn't that why Unix never
really took off?

"I don't support non-Free software or individuals/companies that produce
it."

I don't get this at all.  There are thousands of great products on the
market - you don't believe in buying any of them??  How about the rest of
your life?  You would not buy a car, a house, food??

Sounds like you're saying that nobody can be in the software business.
Sorry, but my company sells software, and I like having money to enjoy my
life.  Human civilization is based on trading goods and services.

"I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of stay with Windows
because even then they are regaining self-determination."

I don't get this either.  I see Apple as even worse than MSFT.  If you are
unhappy with most any Mac product or service, you have no other company to
turn to.   At least with a PC I have hundreds of companies to use for
hardware and software.

"Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will no
longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on Ubuntu, it's
developers, or the community but on the corporation."

Now this is really off base.  A corporation is just a collection of people.
People can be good or evil.  Your only alternative is the government - and
those can be REALLY evil.  Do you think government bureaucrats care about
ethics or freedom??  To demonstrate growth, a corporation has to offer a
product or service that people want!  MSFT once had some decent products,
and people bought them because they wanted to.  Now, things have gone
downhill and we need a better alternative.  We have to get the word out that
it's time to switch.



From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Wed May  2 19:03:28 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:03:28 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Frustrated Windows user
In-Reply-To: <007a01c78d0a$818efe90$84acfbb0$@com>
References: <mailman.412.1178105260.6247.advocate@badvista.org>
	<007a01c78d0a$818efe90$84acfbb0$@com>
Message-ID: <200705021803.28465.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Wednesday 02 May 2007 17:37:46 Russ Karlberg wrote:
> I have been a Windows user since 2.0.  I really liked using 3.0, 3.1, 95,
> 2000 and even XP, although the security problems were annoying.  I always
> liked working with MSFT products and usually upgraded as soon as the Beta
> was ready.
>
> No more.  I tried Vista in Beta and absolutely hated it.  Installations
> took forever, if they worked at all.  Bugs and annoyances abound.  Why do I
> need 2GB of RAM just for my OS??  Everything I do now is slower than my old
> laptop, even though my new one is much more powerful.  I didn't want to
> upgrade, but this new laptop came with Vista, they don't even offer any
> other OS options.
>
> I've tried Linux in the past, mostly I liked it a lot, but almost all the
> software and games I use don't run on Linux.  So I'm interested to join
> this effort to promote alternatives to MSFT.
>
> I wonder if this group will go anywhere though.  There seems to be a lot of
> bickering about the different flavors available.  Isn't that why Unix never
> really took off?
>
> "I don't support non-Free software or individuals/companies that produce
> it."
>
> I don't get this at all.  There are thousands of great products on the
> market - you don't believe in buying any of them??  How about the rest of
> your life?  You would not buy a car, a house, food??
>
> Sounds like you're saying that nobody can be in the software business.
> Sorry, but my company sells software, and I like having money to enjoy my
> life.  Human civilization is based on trading goods and services.
>
> "I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of stay with
> Windows because even then they are regaining self-determination."
>
> I don't get this either.  I see Apple as even worse than MSFT.  If you are
> unhappy with most any Mac product or service, you have no other company to
> turn to.   At least with a PC I have hundreds of companies to use for
> hardware and software.
>
> "Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will no
> longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on Ubuntu,
> it's developers, or the community but on the corporation."
>
> Now this is really off base.  A corporation is just a collection of people.
> People can be good or evil.  Your only alternative is the government - and
> those can be REALLY evil.  Do you think government bureaucrats care about
> ethics or freedom??  To demonstrate growth, a corporation has to offer a
> product or service that people want!  MSFT once had some decent products,
> and people bought them because they wanted to.  Now, things have gone
> downhill and we need a better alternative.  We have to get the word out
> that it's time to switch.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

When we say we don't support non-free software, we mean that we don't support 
software that is distributed in a manner which is intended to restrict the 
freedom of its users.  Making money is a different topic altogether.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Wed May  2 20:25:53 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:25:53 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
Message-ID: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>

Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last week
brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
catalog to DRM free sales too.

One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On Monday
we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an open
letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and sending
it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from music
fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its position.

Sign the letter today at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music

In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and the
key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once again
the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions in
cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!

In solidarity,

Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew


From jbn at forestfield.org  Wed May  2 20:42:19 2007
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 19:42:19 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Frustrated Windows user
In-Reply-To: <007a01c78d0a$818efe90$84acfbb0$@com>
References: <mailman.412.1178105260.6247.advocate@badvista.org>
	<007a01c78d0a$818efe90$84acfbb0$@com>
Message-ID: <46392FEB.80602@forestfield.org>

Russ Karlberg wrote:
> I've tried Linux in the past, mostly I liked it a lot, but almost all the
> software and games I use don't run on Linux.  So I'm interested to join this
> effort to promote alternatives to MSFT.

It's great to see more users interested in free software including 
running GNU/Linux; welcome to the community!

I didn't notice your name on the mailing list before, and I saw some 
things I wanted to address in your post.  I hope to encourage people to 
learn why the free software community exists so they'll stick with it 
even when there's an attractive proprietary alternative.  With that, 
I'll give you my take on some of the points you make below and try to 
point you to some essays I've found helpful regarding software freedom.

Unlike other groups of computer users, the free software community isn't 
focused on technical achievement so much as building a community in 
which we can share and improve software.  For us, the issue is an 
ethical not technological issue.  Practical beneficial software is an 
important element, but I believe that will come if we maintain a 
foundation of sharing and social solidarity.

There's plenty for programmers and non-programmers alike to do and 
there's plenty for everyone to use and enjoy as well (not least of which 
is teaching other users why this community was made).

> I wonder if this group will go anywhere though.  There seems to be a lot of
> bickering about the different flavors available.  Isn't that why Unix never
> really took off?

I don't know, but suffice to say popularity isn't the chief effort of 
the free software movement -- this social movement is more interested in 
teaching people to value the freedom to share and modify for its own 
sake.  I'll explain more below in response to your other points.

> "I don't support non-Free software or individuals/companies that produce
> it."
> 
> I don't get this at all.  There are thousands of great products on the
> market - you don't believe in buying any of them??  How about the rest of
> your life?  You would not buy a car, a house, food??

The word "free" in English poses a problem because it has two different 
meanings tied to the same word: one meaning refers to zero cost and the 
other to freedom.  Other languages don't have this problem.  When we 
speak about free software we mean the freedoms to run, inspect, share, 
and modify computer software at any time for any reason, not cost (hence 
the phrase "think free speech not free beer").  "non-Free software" 
refers to software that doesn't grant its users these freedoms.

Often users can get free software at zero cost because people are free 
to share the software at whatever price they choose.  This doesn't mean 
the free software community is anti-business, far from it.  I do 
consulting with free software distributing it for a fee and charging 
clients for services related to running and improving free software. 
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html gets into this topic more deeply.

Buying physical goods (cars, houses, food) is quite unlike software 
which can be trivially replicated.  Perhaps in the future when we can 
replicate material objects like they do in Star Trek we'll have reason 
to fight for freedoms we don't fight for now.

> "I even would rather see somebody switch to Mac instead of stay with Windows
> because even then they are regaining self-determination."
> 
> I don't get this either.  I see Apple as even worse than MSFT.  If you are
> unhappy with most any Mac product or service, you have no other company to
> turn to.   At least with a PC I have hundreds of companies to use for
> hardware and software.

Independence is critical; imagine independence applied to software: if I 
have a problem with any proprietary program I can only get help from the 
proprietor (be they Apple, Microsoft, or any other individual or 
organization).  With free software I can learn to fix things myself, I 
can hire someone to fix things for me, I can ask the community for help, 
I can get a friend to do something for me.  I can also help the 
community by sharing my fixed program.  I can study the fixed program to 
help improve my skill if I so choose.  Richard Stallman, the founder of 
the free software movement, points out that we do these things all the 
time in cooking (see http://audio-video.gnu.org/ for talks from various 
free software speakers at the Free Software Foundation including Stallman).

gNewSense GNU/Linux gives its users these freedoms by including only 
free software.  When I share gNewSense GNU/Linux I don't have to worry 
that I'm sharing software that puts the recipient in the aforementioned 
bind.  There are many places they can get help from (including me, if 
they choose).

> "Power corrupts. They are a corporation, and as a corporation have one
> responsibility: to demonstrate growth to their stockholders. They will no
> longer care about ethics or freedom and this isn't an attack on Ubuntu, it's
> developers, or the community but on the corporation."
> 
> Now this is really off base.  A corporation is just a collection of people.
> People can be good or evil.  Your only alternative is the government - and
> those can be REALLY evil.  Do you think government bureaucrats care about
> ethics or freedom??  To demonstrate growth, a corporation has to offer a
> product or service that people want!  MSFT once had some decent products,
> and people bought them because they wanted to.  Now, things have gone
> downhill and we need a better alternative.  We have to get the word out that
> it's time to switch.

Switching software is a good step in the right direction, but teaching 
people why we do what we do is critical to get people and organizations 
to stick with free software in the long term.  If they switch for 
technical advances or budgetary reasons they could switch away later if 
a wealthy proprietor offers reliable non-free software at no fee.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/microsoft.html has more to say on framing 
Microsoft as just another proprietor, employing obstructive tactics 
other proprietors employ as well.

Some governments do care about software freedom (I can't say the 
American government is one of them, sadly).  With advocacy like ours, 
the free software movement has made some advances in government.  As I 
understand it, Latin American governments are quite interested in free 
software, there was a remarkable response from a Peruvian Congressman 
some time ago regarding a bill that advocated for free software use (on 
the basis of ensuring freedom), and I've been able to make my county 
clerk more interested in software freedom by working with a group to 
check out voting machines.  Not all successes to the degree we'd like, 
but certainly progress in the right direction.

The free software movement isn't opposed to corporations per se, but 
I've found that many within the movement are suspicious of corporate 
power (to put it mildly) and for good reason.  The movie and book "The 
Corporation" (http://www.thecorporation.com/) is enormously instructive 
on this ground, not least for its advocacy on increasing democratic 
control over our economy.  I imagine the free software movement 
dovetails with this concern quite nicely as it too argues for democratic 
control over our computers which are increasingly important in modern life.

If you're not already familiar with it, there are a lot of informative 
essays on http://gnu.org/philosophy/ on a variety of topics related to 
the free software movement.  I recommend 
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html because 
these issues come up a lot amongst technical folks (particularly the 
value of the long term push for valuing freedom on its own terms).

I hope my post was helpful and that you'll be more interested in our 
community.  It's great to have another person working with us.


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Wed May  2 20:55:00 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 17:55:00 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26d2590705021755p18cd68aew8aa3b4757929b2a6@mail.gmail.com>

I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all DRM
products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of coverage.

If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection is
to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music, etc.

Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.

What you all think of this?

George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux

On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
> relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
> thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
> Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
> Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
> announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last week
> brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
> catalog to DRM free sales too.
>
> One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
> Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On Monday
> we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
> DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an open
> letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
> spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and sending
> it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from music
> fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its position.
>
> Sign the letter today at
> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music
>
> In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and the
> key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once again
> the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions in
> cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
> MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
> for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!
>
> In solidarity,
>
> Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Wed May  2 20:57:27 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:57:27 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <26d2590705021755p18cd68aew8aa3b4757929b2a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<26d2590705021755p18cd68aew8aa3b4757929b2a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0705021757n3b7788by7ac26ef4658d8e50@mail.gmail.com>

There have been some very wide-scale boycotts before on important days
but they have all been relatively unsuccessful. If you want, you can
do one but I think that in this point in time we do not have the
resources, time, people, or ability to run such a campaign. I think we
should continue to fight DRM and I think that warner will wake up
soon. Just keep spreading that HD-DVD key for now.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 5/2/07, member greenarrow1 <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> wrote:
> I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all DRM
> products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
> every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
> a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of coverage.
>
> If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
> support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection is
> to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
> holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music, etc.
>
> Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
> contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.
>
> What you all think of this?
>
> George
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
>
> On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
> > relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
> > thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
> > Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
> > Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
> > announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last week
> > brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
> > catalog to DRM free sales too.
> >
> > One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
> > Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On Monday
> > we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
> > DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an open
> > letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
> > spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and sending
> > it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from music
> > fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its position.
> >
> > Sign the letter today at
> > http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music
> >
> > In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and the
> > key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once again
> > the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions in
> > cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
> > MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
> > for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!
> >
> > In solidarity,
> >
> > Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
> --
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Wed May  2 21:49:40 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:49:40 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0705021757n3b7788by7ac26ef4658d8e50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<26d2590705021755p18cd68aew8aa3b4757929b2a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0705021757n3b7788by7ac26ef4658d8e50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26d2590705021849s42e30043j3c097f0eb8a265@mail.gmail.com>

I am doing that plus anytime a new key is released I make sure I find
the code and send it to a contact I have.  No need to tell you why.
If this was a secured closed email session i could explain more but
since we do not know for sure who reads the emails secrecy is best.

I have over 50 users switched to Linux just to get them off of Windows
and I am working on getting them over to what I call Pure Linux (which
is a distro without proprietary code).  My first objective is just to
get them away from Windows, and after that I work on further rehab.
In order to do this I have to make sure they are comfortable with the
new OS or they will go right back to Windows and I have proof of this.
 I have ran in to multiple problems and the major turn off is when I
am setting their system up (while they are sitting with me) is having
to use any command line entries as I see the shock of I am not going
to have to go through all that am I!  Or, not having programs work
without having to do paths corrections, etc.  I know from experience
one is not going to get a Windows user to convert  if the OS they are
converting to: 1) is not as easy to use as windows was; 2)  If they
have to configure anything by commands, regardless of how much I
explain that Linux is better to use, has a lot to offer (even showing
them), doing demos of different distros, explaining that this does not
lay restrictions on how you can use software like windows does,
showing them the many avenues of support and lastly, costs.

I work with a lot of seniors and hard core window users, and while the
seniors are pretty adaptable to switching the hard core are the "show
me" types, prove it attitude.  I am happy to just to get them to
switch to Linux, at first, but for me to get them to a Pure Linux
system is not a easy task because of the lack of drivers that support
their machines.  And, I mean this because of the lack of support for
certain printers, USB seems to be a big problem for some distros and
video and sound.  Try and tell someone well you will not be able to do
certain functions on video or sound and they tell you right off,
forget it because I need that function or that a scanner cannot be
configured when a senior sends pics she has from a old camera that is
not digital to her love ones.

I realize the goal is to get users to switch to a all free code
operating system but until we can create a stable and well versed one
with all free code it would be to our advantage to get them off of
windows even if it means to easier to use distros.  I can tell you
this it is a lot easier to get them to switch to a Linux OS like
GSense from another Linux distro then a straight switch from windows.
So, even if we do not get them right to a Pure Linux OS at least we
are weaning them off windows and that is a positive step.

FYI I build computers for seniors and disadvantage children and use
only Linux distros but they have to be usable in a very easy
understandable way or they become big paper weights.  I even print out
the on line manuals for the distro but I change a lot so they can
comprehend what is being written.  The children learn fast and I am
even showing some the inner features of Linux and how to use command
line installs and this is the first step in getting them to a free
open source system.  I learned doing this makes it less of a strain on
the person and they also learn faster.  I worked for AT&T when Unix
was first developed so I am not a person just blowing steam when
speaking of how to get people use to the changes from switching from a
windows base to a Linux base.  Gates did not create DOS but took it
from whom developed it.  A lot of what windows is based on was not
even created by Microsoft but either bought out or stolen from others.
 Windows is a very good example of what greed and money does to a
organization.  This is why i always favored Unix and Linux because it
gave the user ways of changing or even creating what is on his
computer.

So this was a little history of myself and my ideas.  While I am for
your objective I am not totally for the way you are approaching this.
But, then we are all open for opinions and if we are not then this
project is doomed for failure.

On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> There have been some very wide-scale boycotts before on important days
> but they have all been relatively unsuccessful. If you want, you can
> do one but I think that in this point in time we do not have the
> resources, time, people, or ability to run such a campaign. I think we
> should continue to fight DRM and I think that warner will wake up
> soon. Just keep spreading that HD-DVD key for now.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 5/2/07, member greenarrow1 <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> wrote:
> > I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all DRM
> > products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
> > every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
> > a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of coverage.
> >
> > If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
> > support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection is
> > to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
> > holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music, etc.
> >
> > Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
> > contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.
> >
> > What you all think of this?
> >
> > George
> > greenarrow1
> > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> > GoBoLinux
> >
> > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
> > > relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
> > > thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
> > > Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
> > > Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
> > > announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last week
> > > brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
> > > catalog to DRM free sales too.
> > >
> > > One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
> > > Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On Monday
> > > we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
> > > DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an open
> > > letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
> > > spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and sending
> > > it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from music
> > > fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its position.
> > >
> > > Sign the letter today at
> > > http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music
> > >
> > > In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and the
> > > key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once again
> > > the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions in
> > > cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
> > > MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
> > > for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!
> > >
> > > In solidarity,
> > >
> > > Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > greenarrow1
> > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> > GoBoLinux
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From trmusson at ihug.co.nz  Wed May  2 23:53:20 2007
From: trmusson at ihug.co.nz (Timothy Musson)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:53:20 +1200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Frustrated Windows user
In-Reply-To: <007a01c78d0a$818efe90$84acfbb0$@com>
References: <mailman.412.1178105260.6247.advocate@badvista.org>
	<007a01c78d0a$818efe90$84acfbb0$@com>
Message-ID: <20070503035320.GA27583@pratfall>

Russ Karlberg wrote:
> "I don't support non-Free software or individuals/companies that produce
> it."

(It was me who wrote that, so here's my answer. If anything sounds a bit
terse, it's just because I'm in a hurry :^)
 
> I don't get this at all.  There are thousands of great products on the
> market - you don't believe in buying any of them??

Not if they're non-Free, no. I don't have a problem buying Free
software. (I buy my Debian CDs, and I occasionally donate money to Free
software projects.)

And I don't have a problem with you buying non-Free software. It's your
money.

But I, personally, don't support non-Free software.

BTW, if the idea of paying for Free software sounds weird to you, take a
look at this: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html


> How about the rest of your life?  You would not buy a car, a house, food??

With cars and houses, I'm free to take them apart, do my own repairs
or modifications (or pay someone else to do it for me), sell them, give
them away, whatever. So why would I have a problem with cars or houses?

With food, I'm free to study and modify recipes. Bought food comes with
a list of basic ingredients, to let me know what I'm putting into my
body. And again, I'm free to sell it on or give it away. So why would I
have a problem with food?

But I do have a problem with non-Free software, because its users are
prevented from studying/fixing/modifying the source code (or hiring
someone else to do it for them). And there are obvious security and
privacy implications, when you run software you're intentionally
prevented from fully understanding.


> Sounds like you're saying that nobody can be in the software business.

That's not what I'm saying. The world will always need new software and
people to write, maintain and improve it. Those are services for which
people/businesses are willing to pay.


> Sorry, but my company sells software, and I like having money to enjoy my
> life.  Human civilization is based on trading goods and services.

Sure, but I don't owe you a living: I don't use non-Free software.


Tim
-- 
trmusson at ihug.co.nz


From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Thu May  3 00:27:04 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 00:27:04 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Frustrated Windows user
In-Reply-To: <20070503035320.GA27583@pratfall>
References: <mailman.412.1178105260.6247.advocate@badvista.org>	<007a01c78d0a$818efe90$84acfbb0$@com>
	<20070503035320.GA27583@pratfall>
Message-ID: <46396498.2000302@binaryfreedom.info>


> With cars and houses, I'm free to take them apart, do my own repairs
> or modifications (or pay someone else to do it for me), sell them, give
> them away, whatever. So why would I have a problem with cars or houses?
>
> With food, I'm free to study and modify recipes. Bought food comes with
> a list of basic ingredients, to let me know what I'm putting into my
> body. And again, I'm free to sell it on or give it away. So why would I
> have a problem with food?
>
> But I do have a problem with non-Free software, because its users are
> prevented from studying/fixing/modifying the source code (or hiring
> someone else to do it for them). And there are obvious security and
> privacy implications, when you run software you're intentionally
> prevented from fully understanding.
>
>
>   
>
Well said Tim,
you should join us at binaryfreedom :-)


Chris Fernandez
BinaryFreedom Founder
gNewSense developer


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Thu May  3 07:29:52 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 07:29:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <26d2590705021755p18cd68aew8aa3b4757929b2a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<26d2590705021755p18cd68aew8aa3b4757929b2a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46880.138.162.128.56.1178191792.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

It would be a good idea if it would actually make a difference in the
situation. What I worry about is that this would give us bad publicity
because most people don't understand DRM. That's what this campaign is
for; to educate. It doesn't make sense to ask people to boycott something
when they don't know what it means. People just won't do it.

Jacob


> I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all DRM
> products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
> every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
> a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of
> coverage.
>
> If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
> support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection is
> to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
> holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music, etc.
>
> Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
> contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.
>
> What you all think of this?
>
> George
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
>
> On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
>> relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
>> thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
>> Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
>> Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
>> announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last week
>> brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
>> catalog to DRM free sales too.
>>
>> One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
>> Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On Monday
>> we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
>> DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an open
>> letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
>> spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and sending
>> it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from music
>> fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its position.
>>
>> Sign the letter today at
>> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music
>>
>> In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and the
>> key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once again
>> the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions in
>> cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
>> MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
>> for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!
>>
>> In solidarity,
>>
>> Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Thu May  3 08:08:54 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 22:08:54 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <46880.138.162.128.56.1178191792.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<26d2590705021755p18cd68aew8aa3b4757929b2a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<46880.138.162.128.56.1178191792.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705030508u5cfd12e4if7fafa1f7d82d690@mail.gmail.com>

I have been speaking about DRM to Windows users and fans... in 100% of
the case I met so far, it is the first time they have heard of DRM.

I think fsf.org has an article about DRM... maybe we can make posters
out of it and print it out and post it on notice boards. Maybe we can
make booklets and hand it out to people.

What does everybody think? I think education and awareness is the key here.

2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> It would be a good idea if it would actually make a difference in the
> situation. What I worry about is that this would give us bad publicity
> because most people don't understand DRM. That's what this campaign is
> for; to educate. It doesn't make sense to ask people to boycott something
> when they don't know what it means. People just won't do it.
>
> Jacob
>
>
> > I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all DRM
> > products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
> > every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
> > a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of
> > coverage.
> >
> > If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
> > support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection is
> > to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
> > holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music, etc.
> >
> > Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
> > contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.
> >
> > What you all think of this?
> >
> > George
> > greenarrow1
> > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> > GoBoLinux
> >
> > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
> >> relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
> >> thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
> >> Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
> >> Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
> >> announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last week
> >> brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
> >> catalog to DRM free sales too.
> >>
> >> One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
> >> Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On Monday
> >> we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
> >> DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an open
> >> letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
> >> spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and sending
> >> it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from music
> >> fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its position.
> >>
> >> Sign the letter today at
> >> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music
> >>
> >> In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and the
> >> key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once again
> >> the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions in
> >> cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
> >> MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
> >> for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!
> >>
> >> In solidarity,
> >>
> >> Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > greenarrow1
> > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> > GoBoLinux
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


From manchicken at members.fsf.org  Thu May  3 08:17:42 2007
From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 07:17:42 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705030508u5cfd12e4if7fafa1f7d82d690@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<46880.138.162.128.56.1178191792.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705030508u5cfd12e4if7fafa1f7d82d690@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200705030717.42380.manchicken@members.fsf.org>

On Thursday 03 May 2007 07:08:54 Sunnz wrote:
> I have been speaking about DRM to Windows users and fans... in 100% of
> the case I met so far, it is the first time they have heard of DRM.
>
> I think fsf.org has an article about DRM... maybe we can make posters
> out of it and print it out and post it on notice boards. Maybe we can
> make booklets and hand it out to people.
>
> What does everybody think? I think education and awareness is the key here.
>
> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> > It would be a good idea if it would actually make a difference in the
> > situation. What I worry about is that this would give us bad publicity
> > because most people don't understand DRM. That's what this campaign is
> > for; to educate. It doesn't make sense to ask people to boycott something
> > when they don't know what it means. People just won't do it.
> >
> > Jacob
> >
> > > I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all DRM
> > > products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
> > > every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
> > > a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of
> > > coverage.
> > >
> > > If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
> > > support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection is
> > > to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
> > > holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music, etc.
> > >
> > > Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
> > > contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.
> > >
> > > What you all think of this?
> > >
> > > George
> > > greenarrow1
> > > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> > > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> > > GoBoLinux
> > >
> > > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
> > >> relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
> > >> thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
> > >> Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
> > >> Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
> > >> announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last week
> > >> brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
> > >> catalog to DRM free sales too.
> > >>
> > >> One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
> > >> Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On Monday
> > >> we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
> > >> DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an open
> > >> letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
> > >> spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and sending
> > >> it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from music
> > >> fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its position.
> > >>
> > >> Sign the letter today at
> > >> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music
> > >>
> > >> In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and the
> > >> key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once again
> > >> the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions in
> > >> cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
> > >> MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
> > >> for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!
> > >>
> > >> In solidarity,
> > >>
> > >> Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Advocate mailing list
> > >> Advocate at badvista.org
> > >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> > > --
> > > greenarrow1
> > > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> > > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> > > GoBoLinux
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate

We've had large protests about DRM and such, I sometimes get concerned about 
whether or not educating the general populace is possible through normal 
means.  I think BadVista commercials and marketing of other computers and 
software where the word "Freedom" is shouted loud and proud will have more of 
an impact.  Posters are nice, protests are fun, but I am concerned about 
their effectiveness.

-- 
~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From news at adolflam.com  Thu May  3 13:33:16 2007
From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 01:33:16 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <200705030717.42380.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<46880.138.162.128.56.1178191792.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705030508u5cfd12e4if7fafa1f7d82d690@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705030717.42380.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <34202.192.169.41.42.1178213596.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>


> On Thursday 03 May 2007 07:08:54 Sunnz wrote:
>> I have been speaking about DRM to Windows users and fans... in 100% of
>> the case I met so far, it is the first time they have heard of DRM.
>>
>> I think fsf.org has an article about DRM... maybe we can make posters
>> out of it and print it out and post it on notice boards. Maybe we can
>> make booklets and hand it out to people.
>>
>> What does everybody think? I think education and awareness is the key
>> here.
>>
>> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> > It would be a good idea if it would actually make a difference in the
>> > situation. What I worry about is that this would give us bad publicity
>> > because most people don't understand DRM. That's what this campaign is
>> > for; to educate. It doesn't make sense to ask people to boycott
>> something
>> > when they don't know what it means. People just won't do it.
>> >
>> > Jacob
>> >
>> > > I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all
>> DRM
>> > > products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
>> > > every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
>> > > a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of
>> > > coverage.
>> > >
>> > > If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
>> > > support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection
>> is
>> > > to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
>> > > holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music,
>> etc.
>> > >
>> > > Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
>> > > contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.
>> > >
>> > > What you all think of this?
>> > >
>> > > George
>> > > greenarrow1
>> > > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
>> > > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
>> > > GoBoLinux
>> > >
>> > > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
>> > >> relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
>> > >> thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
>> > >> Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
>> > >> Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
>> > >> announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last
>> week
>> > >> brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
>> > >> catalog to DRM free sales too.
>> > >>
>> > >> One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
>> > >> Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On
>> Monday
>> > >> we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
>> > >> DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an
>> open
>> > >> letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
>> > >> spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and
>> sending
>> > >> it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from
>> music
>> > >> fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its
>> position.
>> > >>
>> > >> Sign the letter today at
>> > >> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music
>> > >>
>> > >> In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and
>> the
>> > >> key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once
>> again
>> > >> the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions
>> in
>> > >> cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
>> > >> MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
>> > >> for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!
>> > >>
>> > >> In solidarity,
>> > >>
>> > >> Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Advocate mailing list
>> > >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> > >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > greenarrow1
>> > > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
>> > > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
>> > > GoBoLinux
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Advocate mailing list
>> > > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
> We've had large protests about DRM and such, I sometimes get concerned
> about
> whether or not educating the general populace is possible through normal
> means.  I think BadVista commercials and marketing of other computers and
> software where the word "Freedom" is shouted loud and proud will have more
> of
> an impact.  Posters are nice, protests are fun, but I am concerned about
> their effectiveness.
>
> --
> ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <><
> (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

At least it is better than sitting around doing nothing =)

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279




From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Thu May  3 14:20:56 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:20:56 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] new feature on BinaryFreedom
Message-ID: <463A2808.9010909@binaryfreedom.info>

I just added the capability for people to digg/reddit/google... etc your
blogs/news/posts...

http://www.binaryfreedom.info/

have fun!

-- 
FSF member #697
BinaryFreedom Founder
gNewSense Developer.
Freedom Figther.
the LOLOLO.


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From Don at donhensley.com  Thu May  3 14:59:25 2007
From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:59:25 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <34202.192.169.41.42.1178213596.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705030717.42380.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
	<34202.192.169.41.42.1178213596.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com>
Message-ID: <200705031159.25902.Don@donhensley.com>



On Thursday 03 May 2007 10:33 am, Lam YongXian wrote:
"At least it is better than sitting around doing nothing"

That's true.

Here's an idea, for anyone, but especially if they are a student:

Ask to give a talk to any club (math clubs, computer clubs, etc., are going to 
be fertile ground, but even Glee Club if they want to listen), on "How can a 
company believe it owns a number" or any title to that effect.

Or any of the subject we all on this list are interested in promoting, it need 
not be just about DRM, but that's a good place to get peoples attention. 
Which may at least expose them to Free Software ideals.

Hand out small booklets --make them yourself. They need be nothing more then 
stapled together pages copied straight off any of the GNU.org pages or any 
source released under that type license.

If you can write something on your own, so much the better, but do not 
hesitate to use the good words that are already available for exactly this 
sort of use.

Even your talk can be straight from any of the works of RMS or at FSF or the 
GNU project, where the right to copy in any medium has been granted (that's 
just reciting it too!), so long as the attribution is retained.

And you will be surprised about how easy this sort of thing is to do.

Even some massive changes of your own to a document released under the The GNU 
Free Documentation License can be arranged if the cause is acceptable.

For example, here is something I wrote for The International Pixel-Stained 
Technopeasant Day protest: http://donhensley.com/right-to-write.html

I got permission from RMS to do this satire (not because of my wonderful 
prose, but because he agreed with the reason I was doing it).

I wouldn't have bothered him, save I was reasonably sure that the issue was 
one he would take some interest in. You can read about the issue here 
http://duskpeterson.com/technopeasant/

The point is that just about everyone will encourage any activity that will 
put the cause forward. But if what you have in mind is unusual you might want 
to check with whoever holds the copyleft first, is all.

So go for it. Posters, speeches, flyer's, etc. Just think your actions and 
statements through first.

I once was doing some political stuff and had got a bunch of students from the 
local high school to put out flyer's over the week end... well some of them, 
with good intentions, but not thinking about how it might be received, put 
them under the windscreen wipers of automobiles parked at the local churches 
that Sunday morning --bad idea.

So pick you actions with care, but do go for it!

Don.
 ***********************************
 On Thursday 03 May 2007 10:33 am, Lam YongXian wrote:
At least it is better than sitting around doing nothing =)

---
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF member #5279

-- 
GNU/Linux is the future.
Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458
Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Thu May  3 15:42:34 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:42:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705030508u5cfd12e4if7fafa1f7d82d690@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<26d2590705021755p18cd68aew8aa3b4757929b2a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<46880.138.162.128.56.1178191792.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705030508u5cfd12e4if7fafa1f7d82d690@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48203.192.168.1.1.1178221354.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

But awareness comes after the education. Posters are at least a decent
start. Or, make a flashy little logo with the website underneath it, that
was, there's some mystery to it. It might intrigue people.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to make a broad type of
advertisement scheme. Some funny, some mysterious, some technical, some
serious...

You asked what I think, and that's what it is.

Jacob

> I have been speaking about DRM to Windows users and fans... in 100% of
> the case I met so far, it is the first time they have heard of DRM.
>
> I think fsf.org has an article about DRM... maybe we can make posters
> out of it and print it out and post it on notice boards. Maybe we can
> make booklets and hand it out to people.
>
> What does everybody think? I think education and awareness is the key
> here.
>
> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> It would be a good idea if it would actually make a difference in the
>> situation. What I worry about is that this would give us bad publicity
>> because most people don't understand DRM. That's what this campaign is
>> for; to educate. It doesn't make sense to ask people to boycott
>> something
>> when they don't know what it means. People just won't do it.
>>
>> Jacob
>>
>>
>> > I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all DRM
>> > products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
>> > every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
>> > a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of
>> > coverage.
>> >
>> > If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
>> > support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection is
>> > to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
>> > holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music, etc.
>> >
>> > Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
>> > contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.
>> >
>> > What you all think of this?
>> >
>> > George
>> > greenarrow1
>> > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
>> > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
>> > GoBoLinux
>> >
>> > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
>> >> relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
>> >> thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
>> >> Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
>> >> Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
>> >> announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last week
>> >> brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
>> >> catalog to DRM free sales too.
>> >>
>> >> One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
>> >> Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On Monday
>> >> we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
>> >> DefectiveByDesign members calling Warner Music executives and an open
>> >> letter to Edgar Bronfman, Jr. Take a moment to sign the letter and
>> >> spread the word. We will be closing the letter on Friday and sending
>> >> it with your signature to send a wake up call to Bronfman from music
>> >> fans and customers: DRM is dead and Warner should change its
>> position.
>> >>
>> >> Sign the letter today at
>> >> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/open_letter/warner_music
>> >>
>> >> In other news, the encryption for HD DVD DRM has been cracked and the
>> >> key has been widely circulated in the last few days proving once
>> again
>> >> the futility of DRM schemes. DefectiveByDesign is planning actions in
>> >> cities around the world and will be launching an open letter to the
>> >> MPAA and studio executives urging them to abandon their support for
>> >> for DRM later this month. Look for more on these actions next week!
>> >>
>> >> In solidarity,
>> >>
>> >> Gregory, Peter, Henri and the DRM Elimination Crew
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Advocate mailing list
>> >> Advocate at badvista.org
>> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > greenarrow1
>> > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
>> > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
>> > GoBoLinux
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Thu May  3 15:50:47 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:50:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] World to Warner: Wake up!
In-Reply-To: <200705030717.42380.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
References: <3922422b0705021725xfbcf1d6na9e4c8b6fc6ce38e@mail.gmail.com>
	<46880.138.162.128.56.1178191792.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705030508u5cfd12e4if7fafa1f7d82d690@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705030717.42380.manchicken@members.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <57847.192.168.1.1.1178221847.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

You're right. But what do you do? I'm thinking that that freedom isn't
quite the term. As explained earlier, free has two different meanings in
English. And merely shouting, "Freedom!" doesn't ring clear to people. We
need a saying that is unmistakable, and pickets or signs that make the
mission clear.

Jacob

> On Thursday 03 May 2007 07:08:54 Sunnz wrote:
>> I have been speaking about DRM to Windows users and fans... in 100% of
>> the case I met so far, it is the first time they have heard of DRM.
>>
>> I think fsf.org has an article about DRM... maybe we can make posters
>> out of it and print it out and post it on notice boards. Maybe we can
>> make booklets and hand it out to people.
>>
>> What does everybody think? I think education and awareness is the key
>> here.
>>
>> 2007/5/3, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> > It would be a good idea if it would actually make a difference in the
>> > situation. What I worry about is that this would give us bad publicity
>> > because most people don't understand DRM. That's what this campaign is
>> > for; to educate. It doesn't make sense to ask people to boycott
>> something
>> > when they don't know what it means. People just won't do it.
>> >
>> > Jacob
>> >
>> > > I have a idea.  Lets digg and publicize a National boycott of all
>> DRM
>> > > products for the Memorial Day weekend.  If we can get the word out
>> > > every possible way we can make it work.  I will email
>> > > a Editor of the Washington Post to see if we can get some kind of
>> > > coverage.
>> > >
>> > > If anyone has contacts in media see if we can get some coverage
>> > > support.  The only way to get this type of buyer rights protection
>> is
>> > > to hurt them where it counts, in the pocketbook and dont forget
>> > > holidays are usually when they release big time new DVD's, music,
>> etc.
>> > >
>> > > Of all the people reading the emails some of us must have some media
>> > > contacts.  I have some with Tech Republic, CMP, even some in Europe.
>> > >
>> > > What you all think of this?
>> > >
>> > > George
>> > > greenarrow1
>> > > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
>> > > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
>> > > GoBoLinux
>> > >
>> > > On 5/2/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> Recent weeks have brought major changes in the music industry as it
>> > >> relates to online digital music distribution. In March over six
>> > >> thousand people signed our open letter to Steve Jobs about DRM. Now
>> > >> Apple and EMI have now committed to distributing without Digital
>> > >> Restrictions Management (DRM), and there have been similar
>> > >> announcements from other online music stores and retailers. Last
>> week
>> > >> brought news that Universal Music may be opening up some of their
>> > >> catalog to DRM free sales too.
>> > >>
>> > >> One of the most outspoken opponents to ending DRM has been Edgar
>> > >> Bronfman, Jr., the CEO and Chairman of Warner Music Group. On
>> Monday
>> > >> we launched a multi pronged campaign to "Wake Up Warner" with
>> >