From sunnzy at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 00:17:53 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:17:53 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New BadVista images/wallpapers/logos
In-Reply-To: <6580.138.162.128.56.1180630412.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <bc5.12ba9190.33900d73@aol.com>
	<6580.138.162.128.56.1180630412.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120705312117r421bd20fk3d398722c106d23e@mail.gmail.com>

2007/6/1, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> I like it, but the same problem is still there; will everyone else get it?
> Remember that our target audience is the users that already use Windows.
> We want to pull them from Windows to get them to see the down sides and
> then for them to choose GNU/Linux.



Hmmm will it do if there is a big M$ logo on the gift box?

Remember the XP sucks drink with a Linux Penguin some years ago? A lot
of Windows users were amused by it and got it on their XP desktop. I
think now we are just making Vista versions of it but with new
ideas... it is kind of a Vista sucks more than XP thing.

And I think people do know Linux is superior in a lot of aspect... but
Linux just seem to be "for advanced users" and average joes out there
proactively claims that they don't need 'advanced features'.

I think if we were to promote Linux to the everyday home user, it must
be simple and minimalist, easy to install... showing a video of
installing Feisty on a Windows machines without destroying Windows
would be useful.



> Jacob
>
> > "About the box: perhaps a box that looks like  a gift that has a
> > beautiful ribbon, however the top of the ribbon has a shape  of a
> > padlock with a complicated key hole.
> >
> > This is essentially what MS  want to do, they present Vista as this
> > great addon that comes as a beautiful  "gift" with a new computer,
> > however it is a gift that you are not allowed to  "open" it and not
> > even have a look!!!"
> >
> > I like this idea.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ************************************** See what's free at
> > http://www.aol.com.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


From graham at grahamcox.co.uk  Fri Jun  1 05:21:18 2007
From: graham at grahamcox.co.uk (Graham Cox)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:21:18 +0100
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New BadVista images/wallpapers/logos
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705312117r421bd20fk3d398722c106d23e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bc5.12ba9190.33900d73@aol.com>
	<6580.138.162.128.56.1180630412.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705312117r421bd20fk3d398722c106d23e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070601092118.GA8205@grahamcox.co.uk>

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 02:17:53PM +1000, Sunnz wrote:
 
> And I think people do know Linux is superior in a lot of aspect... but
> Linux just seem to be "for advanced users" and average joes out there
> proactively claims that they don't need 'advanced features'.
 
One problem here is that a lot of people know their certain software packages 
and want to stick to them. There are alternatives, but people don't want to 
learn how to use a different program to do the same thing - even if there 
isn't really any learning involved, the thought that there might be still puts 
them off. This is even worse with the software where there aren't alternatives 
- one that springs to mind is AutoCAD (My SO is an architect - she uses that 
  all the time, and there isn't anything even close for the non-Windows world 
  that I know about)...
 
> I think if we were to promote Linux to the everyday home user, it must
> be simple and minimalist, easy to install... showing a video of
> installing Feisty on a Windows machines without destroying Windows
> would be useful.

There is apparantly an unofficial version of Ubuntu that comes as a windows 
MSI file. You just download it and install it as if it's a normal windows 
program, and it installs Ubuntu somewhere (I've no idea where - the guy who 
told me about it claims that it didn't repartition his drive, but his windows 
drive was NTFS) and installs a bootloader for you to select Ubuntu or Windows 
at boot time.

-- 
Graham Cox

[We] use bad software and bad machines for the wrong things.
		-- R.W. Hamming
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Fri Jun  1 10:43:04 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:43:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New BadVista images/wallpapers/logos
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120705312117r421bd20fk3d398722c106d23e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bc5.12ba9190.33900d73@aol.com>
	<6580.138.162.128.56.1180630412.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705312117r421bd20fk3d398722c106d23e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20397.138.162.128.55.1180708984.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Yes, you are right. But remember that we wouldn't be openly endorsing
anything other than a totally free distribution. We can't do that while we
fall under the FSF. So, if there was a page that linked to a page on
installing Feisty Fawn with Windows, that would be acceptable. Just
remember to disassociate the FSF with endorsing non-free distributions.

I would have to see it and show it to Windows users to see if they get it.
That's how I base my advertising and instructions. If I show it to
everyone else that I know and they like it or get it, that's how the call
gets made. Just let me know when you come up with something and I'll do
some field testing.

Jacob

> 2007/6/1, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
>> I like it, but the same problem is still there; will everyone else get
>> it?
>> Remember that our target audience is the users that already use Windows.
>> We want to pull them from Windows to get them to see the down sides and
>> then for them to choose GNU/Linux.
>
>
>
> Hmmm will it do if there is a big M$ logo on the gift box?
>
> Remember the XP sucks drink with a Linux Penguin some years ago? A lot
> of Windows users were amused by it and got it on their XP desktop. I
> think now we are just making Vista versions of it but with new
> ideas... it is kind of a Vista sucks more than XP thing.
>
> And I think people do know Linux is superior in a lot of aspect... but
> Linux just seem to be "for advanced users" and average joes out there
> proactively claims that they don't need 'advanced features'.
>
> I think if we were to promote Linux to the everyday home user, it must
> be simple and minimalist, easy to install... showing a video of
> installing Feisty on a Windows machines without destroying Windows
> would be useful.
>
>
>
>> Jacob
>>
>> > "About the box: perhaps a box that looks like  a gift that has a
>> > beautiful ribbon, however the top of the ribbon has a shape  of a
>> > padlock with a complicated key hole.
>> >
>> > This is essentially what MS  want to do, they present Vista as this
>> > great addon that comes as a beautiful  "gift" with a new computer,
>> > however it is a gift that you are not allowed to  "open" it and not
>> > even have a look!!!"
>> >
>> > I like this idea.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ************************************** See what's free at
>> > http://www.aol.com.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Fri Jun  1 10:48:14 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:48:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New BadVista images/wallpapers/logos
In-Reply-To: <20070601092118.GA8205@grahamcox.co.uk>
References: <bc5.12ba9190.33900d73@aol.com>
	<6580.138.162.128.56.1180630412.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705312117r421bd20fk3d398722c106d23e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070601092118.GA8205@grahamcox.co.uk>
Message-ID: <38786.138.162.128.55.1180709294.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I'm thinking that we need a page devoted to Windows programs and their
free equivalents. That's going to be a lot of work, but I think it's
something that needs to be there. Or just link to a pre-existing one such
as 
http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Linux_software_equivalent_to_Windows_software

That's my opinion.

Jacob

> On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 02:17:53PM +1000, Sunnz wrote:
>
>> And I think people do know Linux is superior in a lot of aspect... but
>> Linux just seem to be "for advanced users" and average joes out there
>> proactively claims that they don't need 'advanced features'.
>
> One problem here is that a lot of people know their certain software
> packages
> and want to stick to them. There are alternatives, but people don't want
> to
> learn how to use a different program to do the same thing - even if there
> isn't really any learning involved, the thought that there might be still
> puts
> them off. This is even worse with the software where there aren't
> alternatives
> - one that springs to mind is AutoCAD (My SO is an architect - she uses
> that
>   all the time, and there isn't anything even close for the non-Windows
> world
>   that I know about)...
>
>> I think if we were to promote Linux to the everyday home user, it must
>> be simple and minimalist, easy to install... showing a video of
>> installing Feisty on a Windows machines without destroying Windows
>> would be useful.
>
> There is apparantly an unofficial version of Ubuntu that comes as a
> windows
> MSI file. You just download it and install it as if it's a normal windows
> program, and it installs Ubuntu somewhere (I've no idea where - the guy
> who
> told me about it claims that it didn't repartition his drive, but his
> windows
> drive was NTFS) and installs a bootloader for you to select Ubuntu or
> Windows
> at boot time.
>
> --
> Graham Cox
>
> [We] use bad software and bad machines for the wrong things.
> 		-- R.W. Hamming
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 11:10:59 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 01:10:59 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New BadVista images/wallpapers/logos
In-Reply-To: <20397.138.162.128.55.1180708984.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <bc5.12ba9190.33900d73@aol.com>
	<6580.138.162.128.56.1180630412.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705312117r421bd20fk3d398722c106d23e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20397.138.162.128.55.1180708984.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120706010810g1295bd83saba0b1fa7d5d362@mail.gmail.com>

Endorsing totally free software matters in this case, the video
probably would go on youtube where it gets the widest audience
possible and you don't even have to presist what distribution is used
in the vid it merely shows how easy it could be to install Linux and
it can probably done with something like gNewSense but at this stage
it is better to spend more effort on how the vid would appeal to the
target audience instead of what's behind it.

2007/6/2, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> Yes, you are right. But remember that we wouldn't be openly endorsing
> anything other than a totally free distribution. We can't do that while we
> fall under the FSF. So, if there was a page that linked to a page on
> installing Feisty Fawn with Windows, that would be acceptable. Just
> remember to disassociate the FSF with endorsing non-free distributions.
>
> I would have to see it and show it to Windows users to see if they get it.
> That's how I base my advertising and instructions. If I show it to
> everyone else that I know and they like it or get it, that's how the call
> gets made. Just let me know when you come up with something and I'll do
> some field testing.
>
> Jacob
>
> > 2007/6/1, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com>:
> >> I like it, but the same problem is still there; will everyone else get
> >> it?
> >> Remember that our target audience is the users that already use Windows.
> >> We want to pull them from Windows to get them to see the down sides and
> >> then for them to choose GNU/Linux.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hmmm will it do if there is a big M$ logo on the gift box?
> >
> > Remember the XP sucks drink with a Linux Penguin some years ago? A lot
> > of Windows users were amused by it and got it on their XP desktop. I
> > think now we are just making Vista versions of it but with new
> > ideas... it is kind of a Vista sucks more than XP thing.
> >
> > And I think people do know Linux is superior in a lot of aspect... but
> > Linux just seem to be "for advanced users" and average joes out there
> > proactively claims that they don't need 'advanced features'.
> >
> > I think if we were to promote Linux to the everyday home user, it must
> > be simple and minimalist, easy to install... showing a video of
> > installing Feisty on a Windows machines without destroying Windows
> > would be useful.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Jacob
> >>
> >> > "About the box: perhaps a box that looks like  a gift that has a
> >> > beautiful ribbon, however the top of the ribbon has a shape  of a
> >> > padlock with a complicated key hole.
> >> >
> >> > This is essentially what MS  want to do, they present Vista as this
> >> > great addon that comes as a beautiful  "gift" with a new computer,
> >> > however it is a gift that you are not allowed to  "open" it and not
> >> > even have a look!!!"
> >> >
> >> > I like this idea.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ************************************** See what's free at
> >> > http://www.aol.com.
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Advocate mailing list
> >> > Advocate at badvista.org
> >> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0


From johns at fsf.org  Fri Jun  1 11:27:38 2007
From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:27:38 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New BadVista images/wallpapers/logos
In-Reply-To: <38786.138.162.128.55.1180709294.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	(Jacob Maynard's message of "Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:48:14 -0400 (EDT)")
References: <bc5.12ba9190.33900d73@aol.com>
	<6580.138.162.128.56.1180630412.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<b35fa3120705312117r421bd20fk3d398722c106d23e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070601092118.GA8205@grahamcox.co.uk>
	<38786.138.162.128.55.1180709294.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <87zm3j8zkl.fsf@spider.localnet>

"Jacob Maynard" <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> writes:

> I'm thinking that we need a page devoted to Windows programs and their
> free equivalents. That's going to be a lot of work, but I think it's
> something that needs to be there. Or just link to a pre-existing one such
> as 
> http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Linux_software_equivalent_to_Windows_software
>

There is also http://www.gnu.org/software/for-windows.html.

-- 
John Sullivan
Campaigns Manager            | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org
51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl.  | Fax:   (617)542-2652     | http://www.gnu.org
Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA    | GPG:   AE8600B6          | http://www.fsf.org

"Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it
wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of
course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense."
    --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista"


From foetsch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  2 06:46:22 2007
From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:46:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New "Transitioning to GNU/Linux" article
Message-ID: <20070602104622.23594.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Jacob Maynard wrote:
> I'm thinking that we need a page devoted to Windows programs and their
> free equivalents. That's going to be a lot of work, but I think it's
> something that needs to be there. Or just link to a pre-existing one such
> as 
> http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Linux_software_equivalent_to_Windows_software

We should link to existing ones. http://www.osalt.com/ looks useful too. Disclaimer: I haven't really used their site and I don't know what their standards are for "open source" software.


Speaking about transitioning:

In my opinion, a list of application alternatives is only the second step--when people are already using GNU/Linux. We also need articles discussing ways to actually *make* the transition.

In this regard, I very much enjoyed Chris Mostek's blog posts at http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/, which are written from the perspective of someone who has first-hand experience with Windows and GNU/Linux.
I asked Chris for permission to use his article "Tips for transitioning to a GNU/Linux distribution" under the GFDL, which he kindly granted. You can find it on the BinaryFreedom wiki: http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/Transitioning_to_GNU/Linux

Some changes need to be made: There are still some references to proprietary software and similar issues, which we must remove in order to make the article useful in the context of BadVista.

If I know you, you're already over at http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/ actively working on the changes, right (hint! ;-)

As I said to Chris, I really hope to produce a "Complete Conversion Guide to GNU/Linux" someday. But it won't happen without your help. The other ideas about producing YouTube videos, drawing logos, linking to sites with free software alternatives, etc., are all part of this effort, of course.

Kind Regards,
M.F.






       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Sun Jun  3 22:39:16 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 19:39:16 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Novell and Microsoft
Message-ID: <26d2590706031939p5dc38f30v7b3ae6776ea1a1bf@mail.gmail.com>

Everyone might find this interesting as I sent this to Factory and
Development Lists
for OpenSUSE.

After reading today about Novell just giving Microsoft advanced data
on virtualization that us developers create without the possibility of
other SUSE developers seeing it beforehand has turned me entirely
against Novell, and SUSE.  What Open Source stands for and my belief
in freedom for software is why I was further developing the virtual
desktop  With the new kernel version which support virtual desktops
and my working with it I have just completely deleted all I have done
which was pointed towards SUSE because I do not want work I do to fall
into the hands of Microsoft and being patented under their operating
system.

The reason why Microsoft pulled their virtual desktop is because they
cannot get it to work and now I really believe that is one of their
main reasons to team up with Novell to steal our ideas and place it
within proprietary code.  I will not do work that is going to benefit
any company that restricts what one can do on their computer.

I am sorry to say this as I have been with SUSE from 8.1 and watched
it develop to what it is today but will not stand by and watch a
monopolistic company like Microsoft ruin us or take over SUSE with
Novell's help.  And, please do not flame me as I was once a developer
for Microsoft so I do know their inner workings.

George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From socialrevolutionary at comcast.net  Sun Jun  3 22:41:18 2007
From: socialrevolutionary at comcast.net (Alex Launi)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:41:18 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Novell and Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <26d2590706031939p5dc38f30v7b3ae6776ea1a1bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706031939p5dc38f30v7b3ae6776ea1a1bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46637BCE.5080705@comcast.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

why not give that code elsewhere? give another distro the leg up on
suse. Wait for GPLv3 of course.

member greenarrow1 wrote:
> Everyone might find this interesting as I sent this to Factory and
> Development Lists
> for OpenSUSE.
> 
> After reading today about Novell just giving Microsoft advanced data
> on virtualization that us developers create without the possibility of
> other SUSE developers seeing it beforehand has turned me entirely
> against Novell, and SUSE.  What Open Source stands for and my belief
> in freedom for software is why I was further developing the virtual
> desktop  With the new kernel version which support virtual desktops
> and my working with it I have just completely deleted all I have done
> which was pointed towards SUSE because I do not want work I do to fall
> into the hands of Microsoft and being patented under their operating
> system.
> 
> The reason why Microsoft pulled their virtual desktop is because they
> cannot get it to work and now I really believe that is one of their
> main reasons to team up with Novell to steal our ideas and place it
> within proprietary code.  I will not do work that is going to benefit
> any company that restricts what one can do on their computer.
> 
> I am sorry to say this as I have been with SUSE from 8.1 and watched
> it develop to what it is today but will not stand by and watch a
> monopolistic company like Microsoft ruin us or take over SUSE with
> Novell's help.  And, please do not flame me as I was once a developer
> for Microsoft so I do know their inner workings.
> 
> George
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> 

- --
##########################################
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/ \
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Mon Jun  4 07:38:21 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 07:38:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Novell and Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <46637BCE.5080705@comcast.net>
References: <26d2590706031939p5dc38f30v7b3ae6776ea1a1bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<46637BCE.5080705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <49773.138.162.128.56.1180957101.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I agree with this option. If you have a fully functional virtual desktop
when Microsoft can't even get it right, that gives free software a huge
leg up on the situation. It's easier for corporations to want to switch
with useful applications like this. And if corporations switch, home users
will want to switch. It's all about familiarity.

Jacob

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> why not give that code elsewhere? give another distro the leg up on
> suse. Wait for GPLv3 of course.
>
> member greenarrow1 wrote:
>> Everyone might find this interesting as I sent this to Factory and
>> Development Lists
>> for OpenSUSE.
>>
>> After reading today about Novell just giving Microsoft advanced data
>> on virtualization that us developers create without the possibility of
>> other SUSE developers seeing it beforehand has turned me entirely
>> against Novell, and SUSE.  What Open Source stands for and my belief
>> in freedom for software is why I was further developing the virtual
>> desktop  With the new kernel version which support virtual desktops
>> and my working with it I have just completely deleted all I have done
>> which was pointed towards SUSE because I do not want work I do to fall
>> into the hands of Microsoft and being patented under their operating
>> system.
>>
>> The reason why Microsoft pulled their virtual desktop is because they
>> cannot get it to work and now I really believe that is one of their
>> main reasons to team up with Novell to steal our ideas and place it
>> within proprietary code.  I will not do work that is going to benefit
>> any company that restricts what one can do on their computer.
>>
>> I am sorry to say this as I have been with SUSE from 8.1 and watched
>> it develop to what it is today but will not stand by and watch a
>> monopolistic company like Microsoft ruin us or take over SUSE with
>> Novell's help.  And, please do not flame me as I was once a developer
>> for Microsoft so I do know their inner workings.
>>
>> George
>> greenarrow1
>> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
>> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
>> GoBoLinux
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
> - --
> ##########################################
> /"\
> \ /    	    ASCII Ribbon Campaign
>  X   Keep e-mail free of HTML and vCards
> / \
> ##########################################
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFGY3vOv2fpCm3KbxcRAua2AJ4jNZhLv6in+vEblor/k77TB1kJCgCgvc7R
> CjY0ruSobL5Ytt8gW6LBpSw=
> =w60T
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 11:22:02 2007
From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:52:02 +0530
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Novell and Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <49773.138.162.128.56.1180957101.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <26d2590706031939p5dc38f30v7b3ae6776ea1a1bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<46637BCE.5080705@comcast.net>
	<49773.138.162.128.56.1180957101.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <d920a27f0706040822o3a9d7b3ap62c27844df551f1b@mail.gmail.com>

As Alex said in his mail, maybe some one can make this virtual desktop thing
work on Debian or some othe FREE Operating System. That would definitely be
a huge advantage for Linux.
-- 
\ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
.\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
  |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
  http://tuxv.blogspot.com

Don't send me word attachments.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

On 6/4/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with this option. If you have a fully functional virtual desktop
> when Microsoft can't even get it right, that gives free software a huge
> leg up on the situation. It's easier for corporations to want to switch
> with useful applications like this. And if corporations switch, home users
> will want to switch. It's all about familiarity.
>
> Jacob
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > why not give that code elsewhere? give another distro the leg up on
> > suse. Wait for GPLv3 of course.
> >
> > member greenarrow1 wrote:
> >> Everyone might find this interesting as I sent this to Factory and
> >> Development Lists
> >> for OpenSUSE.
> >>
> >> After reading today about Novell just giving Microsoft advanced data
> >> on virtualization that us developers create without the possibility of
> >> other SUSE developers seeing it beforehand has turned me entirely
> >> against Novell, and SUSE.  What Open Source stands for and my belief
> >> in freedom for software is why I was further developing the virtual
> >> desktop  With the new kernel version which support virtual desktops
> >> and my working with it I have just completely deleted all I have done
> >> which was pointed towards SUSE because I do not want work I do to fall
> >> into the hands of Microsoft and being patented under their operating
> >> system.
> >>
> >> The reason why Microsoft pulled their virtual desktop is because they
> >> cannot get it to work and now I really believe that is one of their
> >> main reasons to team up with Novell to steal our ideas and place it
> >> within proprietary code.  I will not do work that is going to benefit
> >> any company that restricts what one can do on their computer.
> >>
> >> I am sorry to say this as I have been with SUSE from 8.1 and watched
> >> it develop to what it is today but will not stand by and watch a
> >> monopolistic company like Microsoft ruin us or take over SUSE with
> >> Novell's help.  And, please do not flame me as I was once a developer
> >> for Microsoft so I do know their inner workings.
> >>
> >> George
> >> greenarrow1
> >> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> >> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> >> GoBoLinux
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >
> > - --
> > ##########################################
> > /"\
> > \ /               ASCII Ribbon Campaign
> >  X   Keep e-mail free of HTML and vCards
> > / \
> > ##########################################
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> > iD8DBQFGY3vOv2fpCm3KbxcRAua2AJ4jNZhLv6in+vEblor/k77TB1kJCgCgvc7R
> > CjY0ruSobL5Ytt8gW6LBpSw=
> > =w60T
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
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From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Mon Jun  4 16:25:49 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 16:25:49 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Novell and Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <d920a27f0706040822o3a9d7b3ap62c27844df551f1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706031939p5dc38f30v7b3ae6776ea1a1bf@mail.gmail.com>	<46637BCE.5080705@comcast.net>	<49773.138.162.128.56.1180957101.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<d920a27f0706040822o3a9d7b3ap62c27844df551f1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4664754D.8060304@gatech.edu>

Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote:
> As Alex said in his mail, maybe some one can make this virtual desktop
> thing
> work on Debian or some othe FREE Operating System. That would definitely be
> a huge advantage for Linux.

QEMU and Xen both work.  There are performance issues, but the
functionality's basically there.

Matt Flaschen


From socialrevolutionary at comcast.net  Mon Jun  4 16:34:51 2007
From: socialrevolutionary at comcast.net (Alex Launi)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 16:34:51 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Novell and Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <4664754D.8060304@gatech.edu>
References: <26d2590706031939p5dc38f30v7b3ae6776ea1a1bf@mail.gmail.com>	<46637BCE.5080705@comcast.net>	<49773.138.162.128.56.1180957101.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<d920a27f0706040822o3a9d7b3ap62c27844df551f1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4664754D.8060304@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <4664776B.8010603@comcast.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> QEMU and Xen both work.  There are performance issues, but the
> functionality's basically there.
Yeah they both work but he sounded like he had something new and
exciting, also, "just works" is rarely enough.
- -- Alex Launi
##########################################
/"\
\ /    	    ASCII Ribbon Campaign
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/ \
##########################################
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Mon Jun  4 21:44:35 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:44:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Novell and Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <4664776B.8010603@comcast.net>
References: <26d2590706031939p5dc38f30v7b3ae6776ea1a1bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<46637BCE.5080705@comcast.net>
	<49773.138.162.128.56.1180957101.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<d920a27f0706040822o3a9d7b3ap62c27844df551f1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4664754D.8060304@gatech.edu> <4664776B.8010603@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46347.192.168.1.1.1181007875.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Those were my thoughts.

Jacob

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>> QEMU and Xen both work.  There are performance issues, but the
>> functionality's basically there.
> Yeah they both work but he sounded like he had something new and
> exciting, also, "just works" is rarely enough.
> - -- Alex Launi
> ##########################################
> /"\
> \ /    	    ASCII Ribbon Campaign
>  X   Keep e-mail free of HTML and vCards
> / \
> ##########################################
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFGZHdrv2fpCm3KbxcRApJhAKCJmSWvcy26LJMs6Tes4fN0Loc9fgCgvFKC
> CTVwQfq6Ic+bX2V/ZK7IfGc=
> =ZlW6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 03:57:31 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 17:57:31 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Sue me first, Microsoft!!!
Message-ID: <b35fa3120706050057y649cd815p46bf6c65d6452c5e@mail.gmail.com>

http://digitaltippingpoint.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sue_me_first%2C_microsoft#Why_I_am_offering_to_be_sued

"This page is intended to be a place where people would like to join
together to invite a Microsoft patent infringement lawsuit. If you would
like to invite a visit by Brad Smith, Microsoft's head litigator, please
feel free to add your name here. We are asking that people include their
name, email address, version of GNU Linux disto(s) being used, and a short
statement explaining why you are using that distro."

Already have 11 pages and counting!! I am not on the gnu or any other FLOSS
list so if you could forward this to other list (if not already.) that would
be great.

-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Wed Jun  6 14:31:37 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:31:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate]  Xandros
Message-ID: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

http://www.ecanadanow.com/technology/2007/06/05/microsoft-and-xandros-linux-make-patent-deal/


I have a fear that this is going to be bad. Since Novell started it, I
have a fear that a lot of major distributions are going to follow. Xandros
just dumped on us, as well.

We need to start writing individual "nasty-grams" to these companies. I'm
not talking an individual letter from the BadVista organization. I mean
individual people. We also need to write letters to those distributions
that haven't turned on the free software ideals. These letters should be
saying thanks for not betraying the community.

Frankly, I'm a bit concerned that Novell started a trend that is going to
continue. Because the problem is that a partnership with Microsoft is
going to make big money for any open-source company. The only thing that
can truly help the situation is if a huge number of people were to give
their support to the open-source companies that didn't stab us in the
back.

It's not the individual users that are going to suffer from a lawsuit.
It's going to be the corporations that use open-source as their networking
and/or desktop computing solutions. And too much fear is being put on the
open-source companies because Microsoft is being so shady about the deal.

We need some action, people. This trend can't continue, or else we're in
big trouble. Whether or not Microsoft's claims are valid or FUD, if they
get the open-source companies scared enough, GNU/Linux will be less and
less free.


Jacob



From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Wed Jun  6 14:40:19 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:40:19 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>

Jacob Maynard wrote:
> http://www.ecanadanow.com/technology/2007/06/05/microsoft-and-xandros-linux-make-patent-deal/
> 
> 
> I have a fear that this is going to be bad. Since Novell started it, I
> have a fear that a lot of major distributions are going to follow. Xandros
> just dumped on us, as well.

We've been talking about this on the BinaryFreedom list
(http://www.binaryfreedom.info/mailman/listinfo/independentfreesoftwareactivists).
 My conclusion is that Xandros will back out of the patent deal, go out
of business, or fight the FSF in court, in that order of likelihood.
That's because they will not be able to distribute GPLv3 software (the
exemption applies only to deals before 3/28) with the deal in place.
Going without all bugfixes and updates coming from GNU alone (not to
mention Samba and whoever else picks it up) would be devestating.

> We need some action, people. This trend can't continue, or else we're in
> big trouble.

I agree, but I think GPLv3 will take care of it.

Matt Flaschen


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 14:43:29 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:43:29 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>

If anybody else bows down we'll start sending nastygrams and visiting
their corporate offices, but until then I think our public opposition
on sites like Slashdot and DIGG will be sufficient.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 6/6/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
> Jacob Maynard wrote:
> > http://www.ecanadanow.com/technology/2007/06/05/microsoft-and-xandros-linux-make-patent-deal/
> >
> >
> > I have a fear that this is going to be bad. Since Novell started it, I
> > have a fear that a lot of major distributions are going to follow. Xandros
> > just dumped on us, as well.
>
> We've been talking about this on the BinaryFreedom list
> (http://www.binaryfreedom.info/mailman/listinfo/independentfreesoftwareactivists).
>  My conclusion is that Xandros will back out of the patent deal, go out
> of business, or fight the FSF in court, in that order of likelihood.
> That's because they will not be able to distribute GPLv3 software (the
> exemption applies only to deals before 3/28) with the deal in place.
> Going without all bugfixes and updates coming from GNU alone (not to
> mention Samba and whoever else picks it up) would be devestating.
>
> > We need some action, people. This trend can't continue, or else we're in
> > big trouble.
>
> I agree, but I think GPLv3 will take care of it.
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Wed Jun  6 14:56:05 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:56:05 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46670345.2080606@gatech.edu>

Ringo Kamens wrote:
> If anybody else bows down we'll start sending nastygrams and visiting
> their corporate offices, but until then I think our public opposition
> on sites like Slashdot and DIGG will be sufficient.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens

I'd like to wait at least a month after GPLv3 comes out, and see what
happens.  If they try to stick with GPLv2, they will probably be
beginning to feel the hurt by then.

Matthew Flaschen


From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Wed Jun  6 15:41:35 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:41:35 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>

you guys can start with a new news source website ala dig/slashdot
dedicated to frees oftware:

http://www.fsdaily.com/

Chris F.

Ringo Kamens wrote:
> If anybody else bows down we'll start sending nastygrams and visiting
> their corporate offices, but until then I think our public opposition
> on sites like Slashdot and DIGG will be sufficient.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> On 6/6/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
>   
>> Jacob Maynard wrote:
>>     
>>> http://www.ecanadanow.com/technology/2007/06/05/microsoft-and-xandros-linux-make-patent-deal/
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a fear that this is going to be bad. Since Novell started it, I
>>> have a fear that a lot of major distributions are going to follow. Xandros
>>> just dumped on us, as well.
>>>       
>> We've been talking about this on the BinaryFreedom list
>> (http://www.binaryfreedom.info/mailman/listinfo/independentfreesoftwareactivists).
>>  My conclusion is that Xandros will back out of the patent deal, go out
>> of business, or fight the FSF in court, in that order of likelihood.
>> That's because they will not be able to distribute GPLv3 software (the
>> exemption applies only to deals before 3/28) with the deal in place.
>> Going without all bugfixes and updates coming from GNU alone (not to
>> mention Samba and whoever else picks it up) would be devestating.
>>
>>     
>>> We need some action, people. This trend can't continue, or else we're in
>>> big trouble.
>>>       
>> I agree, but I think GPLv3 will take care of it.
>>
>> Matt Flaschen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>   


-- 
FSF member #697
BinaryFreedom Founder
gNewSense Developer.
Digital Rights!
Free Speech!
Free Software!!!!!!
Take back the NET!

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From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Wed Jun  6 21:10:32 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:10:32 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] BostonNow article on DRM.. today Wednesday
Message-ID: <46675B08.5020409@binaryfreedom.info>

on todays paper, you can get the pdf from their website 
http://www.bostonnow.com
go to print edition on the top right.
there is an article talking about DRM and they mention the FSF and 
explains the problems of DRM, the article is called "Itunes or intrusion"
very good article to add to the links Deborah sent before.

BTW



From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 07:38:19 2007
From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:08:19 +0530
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>
Message-ID: <d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>

We can promote Debian and other "free" Operating Systems. And if there's
someone with some creativity we can develop banners like "NO SuSE" and "NO
Xandros" etc.

-- 
\ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
.\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
  |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
  http://tuxv.blogspot.com
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Don't send me word attachments.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

On 6/7/07, rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO <rek2 at binaryfreedom.info> wrote:
>
> you guys can start with a new news source website ala dig/slashdot
> dedicated to frees oftware:
>
> http://www.fsdaily.com/
>
> Chris F.
>
> Ringo Kamens wrote:
> > If anybody else bows down we'll start sending nastygrams and visiting
> > their corporate offices, but until then I think our public opposition
> > on sites like Slashdot and DIGG will be sufficient.
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > On 6/6/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Jacob Maynard wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> http://www.ecanadanow.com/technology/2007/06/05/microsoft-and-xandros-linux-make-patent-deal/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have a fear that this is going to be bad. Since Novell started it, I
> >>> have a fear that a lot of major distributions are going to follow.
> Xandros
> >>> just dumped on us, as well.
> >>>
> >> We've been talking about this on the BinaryFreedom list
> >> (
> http://www.binaryfreedom.info/mailman/listinfo/independentfreesoftwareactivists
> ).
> >>  My conclusion is that Xandros will back out of the patent deal, go out
> >> of business, or fight the FSF in court, in that order of likelihood.
> >> That's because they will not be able to distribute GPLv3 software (the
> >> exemption applies only to deals before 3/28) with the deal in place.
> >> Going without all bugfixes and updates coming from GNU alone (not to
> >> mention Samba and whoever else picks it up) would be devestating.
> >>
> >>
> >>> We need some action, people. This trend can't continue, or else we're
> in
> >>> big trouble.
> >>>
> >> I agree, but I think GPLv3 will take care of it.
> >>
> >> Matt Flaschen
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Advocate mailing list
> >> Advocate at badvista.org
> >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
> --
> FSF member #697
> BinaryFreedom Founder
> gNewSense Developer.
> Digital Rights!
> Free Speech!
> Free Software!!!!!!
> Take back the NET!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>
>
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From adolf at adolflam.com  Thu Jun  7 07:57:02 2007
From: adolf at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 19:57:02 +0800
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>
	<d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like Microsoft has been successful in its first step of tearing
the GNU/Linux Community apart... I suggest we take some actions
instead of boycotting them.


-- 
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF Member #5279

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 08:27:00 2007
From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 17:57:00 +0530
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>
	<d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>
	<731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d920a27f0706070527m6eaa55d5rdc1b329888d29a54@mail.gmail.com>

I blogged about it in my blog too (
http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/06/xandros-goes-off.html) I also added links
to digg posts that tries to offend Xandros. If you have time go and digg
some of those links.

Let's fight back

cheers

-- 
\ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
.\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
  |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
  http://tuxv.blogspot.com
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Don't send me word attachments.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

On 6/7/07, Lam YongXian <adolf at adolflam.com> wrote:
>
> Sounds like Microsoft has been successful in its first step of tearing
> the GNU/Linux Community apart... I suggest we take some actions
> instead of boycotting them.
>
>
> --
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF Member #5279
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Thu Jun  7 09:02:54 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 09:02:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>
	<d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>
	<731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33568.138.162.128.58.1181221374.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Agreed, but what do we do aside from refusing to use their product? I
mean, we can't very well support SuSE and Xandros. That's against the
ideals of the FSF. Do you have specific ideas you can tell us about? I
welcome them.

Jacob

> Sounds like Microsoft has been successful in its first step of tearing
> the GNU/Linux Community apart... I suggest we take some actions
> instead of boycotting them.
>
>
> --
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF Member #5279
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From graham at grahamcox.co.uk  Thu Jun  7 09:06:21 2007
From: graham at grahamcox.co.uk (Graham Cox)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 14:06:21 +0100
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <33568.138.162.128.58.1181221374.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>
	<d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>
	<731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>
	<33568.138.162.128.58.1181221374.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <20070607130621.GA10464@grahamcox.co.uk>

On Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 09:02:54AM -0400, Jacob Maynard wrote:
> Agreed, but what do we do aside from refusing to use their product? I
> mean, we can't very well support SuSE and Xandros. That's against the
> ideals of the FSF. Do you have specific ideas you can tell us about? I
> welcome them.
>

How about helping to make the Free ones better rather than working to make the 
non-Free ones worse? And doing so in a way that means that the non-Free ones 
have to come back to being Free in order to benefit from the work (GPLv3 for 
example)

-- 
Graham Cox

"The medium is the message."
-- Marshall McLuhan
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Thu Jun  7 10:11:01 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:11:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <20070607130621.GA10464@grahamcox.co.uk>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>
	<d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>
	<731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>
	<33568.138.162.128.58.1181221374.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<20070607130621.GA10464@grahamcox.co.uk>
Message-ID: <23621.138.162.128.38.1181225461.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Right, but we're talking about 8 months since Novell turned coat. In 8
months, can all of the free developers (I refrain from saying open-source
because of the separate ideals, though open-source could join in) get
together and enhance the capabilities of a truly free system to the point
that there is no need for proprietary anything and is not uncomfortable to
switch to from Windows systems? I have no doubts that it COULD happen, I
just don't think that it WILL happen. Given time and a clear objective,
plus a worldwide collaboration, a system could be made to fit these
guidelines. But we have to be realistic about it.

So, if another company does this in another 8 months, we're in even bigger
trouble. Our timeline gets shortened to develop a distribution that will
encourage the general populace to turn from Windows. And we have to have
that to keep GNU/Linux free and accomplish our objectives.

Jacob

> On Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 09:02:54AM -0400, Jacob Maynard wrote:
>> Agreed, but what do we do aside from refusing to use their product? I
>> mean, we can't very well support SuSE and Xandros. That's against the
>> ideals of the FSF. Do you have specific ideas you can tell us about? I
>> welcome them.
>>
>
> How about helping to make the Free ones better rather than working to make
> the
> non-Free ones worse? And doing so in a way that means that the non-Free
> ones
> have to come back to being Free in order to benefit from the work (GPLv3
> for
> example)
>
> --
> Graham Cox
>
> "The medium is the message."
> -- Marshall McLuhan
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Thu Jun  7 10:43:10 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:43:10 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <23621.138.162.128.38.1181225461.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>	<d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>	<731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>	<33568.138.162.128.58.1181221374.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<20070607130621.GA10464@grahamcox.co.uk>
	<23621.138.162.128.38.1181225461.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <4668197E.9030203@binaryfreedom.info>

Jacob Maynard wrote:
> Right, but we're talking about 8 months since Novell turned coat. In 8
> months, can all of the free developers (I refrain from saying open-source
> because of the separate ideals, though open-source could join in) get
> together and enhance the capabilities of a truly free system to the point
> that there is no need for proprietary anything and is not uncomfortable to
> switch to from Windows systems? I have no doubts that it COULD happen, I
> just don't think that it WILL happen. Given time and a clear objective,
> plus a worldwide collaboration, a system could be made to fit these
> guidelines. But we have to be realistic about it.
>
> So, if another company does this in another 8 months, we're in even bigger
> trouble. Our timeline gets shortened to develop a distribution that will
> encourage the general populace to turn from Windows. And we have to have
> that to keep GNU/Linux free and accomplish our objectives.
>
> Jacob
>
>   
in my own opinion, we already have the systems one of them is gNewSense
what we *do* need is for people
to develop and reverse engineer the drivers and groups of activist
throwing a lot of pressure to company's, and when I say pressure
I am not talking about sending them emails, I'm talking about real
activism, in front of their buildings and such, this has worked well for
other movements.

Chris F.

-- 
FSF member #697
BinaryFreedom Founder
gNewSense Developer.
Digital Rights!
Free Speech!
Free Software!!!!!!
Take back the NET!

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From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Thu Jun  7 15:11:57 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:11:57 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <23621.138.162.128.38.1181225461.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>	<d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>	<731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>	<33568.138.162.128.58.1181221374.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<20070607130621.GA10464@grahamcox.co.uk>
	<23621.138.162.128.38.1181225461.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <4668587D.2020302@gatech.edu>

Jacob Maynard wrote:
> Right, but we're talking about 8 months since Novell turned coat. In 8
> months, can all of the free developers (I refrain from saying open-source
> because of the separate ideals, though open-source could join in) get
> together and enhance the capabilities of a truly free system to the point
> that there is no need for proprietary anything and is not uncomfortable to
> switch to from Windows systems?

That's very subjective.  Most Windows users would be satisfied with a
GNU/Linux distribution /now/.  On the other hand, some require niche
applications that might never be released under a free license (perhaps
not even ported to GNU/Linux).

> Given time and a clear objective,
> plus a worldwide collaboration, a system could be made to fit these
> guidelines.

This system is being made as we speak.  Artificial deadlines aren't
necessary.

> So, if another company does this in another 8 months, we're in even bigger
> trouble.

No, /they're/ in trouble.  These distributors all rely on GNU software,
and will slowly fall behind when GPLv3 comes out.  Their only options
will be to fork, rescind the deal, or face off the FSF in court.  Only
cancelling the patent deal is feasible.  Novell is exempt, but their
current deal will expire in 2012 and they will then be on the same
footing as everyone else.

Matthew Flaschen


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Thu Jun  7 16:27:54 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:27:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Xandros
In-Reply-To: <4668197E.9030203@binaryfreedom.info>
References: <31524.138.162.128.58.1181154697.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4666FF93.2000102@gatech.edu>
	<3922422b0706061143j2a06716as67f5a358e20880a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<46670DEF.7050809@binaryfreedom.info>
	<d920a27f0706070438l405a2cabgec44ff3a8e303df6@mail.gmail.com>
	<731719f60706070457l78372e40g2b5912f83a78805d@mail.gmail.com>
	<33568.138.162.128.58.1181221374.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<20070607130621.GA10464@grahamcox.co.uk>
	<23621.138.162.128.38.1181225461.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<4668197E.9030203@binaryfreedom.info>
Message-ID: <3644.138.162.128.58.1181248074.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

That works great when you have enough time, money, and can travel to their
buildings. I could get to the Red Hat building, but they're on our side,
for right now. For the rest of us, e-mails and letters will have to
suffice.

But you are right.

Jacob

> Jacob Maynard wrote:
>> Right, but we're talking about 8 months since Novell turned coat. In 8
>> months, can all of the free developers (I refrain from saying
>> open-source
>> because of the separate ideals, though open-source could join in) get
>> together and enhance the capabilities of a truly free system to the
>> point
>> that there is no need for proprietary anything and is not uncomfortable
>> to
>> switch to from Windows systems? I have no doubts that it COULD happen, I
>> just don't think that it WILL happen. Given time and a clear objective,
>> plus a worldwide collaboration, a system could be made to fit these
>> guidelines. But we have to be realistic about it.
>>
>> So, if another company does this in another 8 months, we're in even
>> bigger
>> trouble. Our timeline gets shortened to develop a distribution that will
>> encourage the general populace to turn from Windows. And we have to have
>> that to keep GNU/Linux free and accomplish our objectives.
>>
>> Jacob
>>
>>
> in my own opinion, we already have the systems one of them is gNewSense
> what we *do* need is for people
> to develop and reverse engineer the drivers and groups of activist
> throwing a lot of pressure to company's, and when I say pressure
> I am not talking about sending them emails, I'm talking about real
> activism, in front of their buildings and such, this has worked well for
> other movements.
>
> Chris F.
>
> --
> FSF member #697
> BinaryFreedom Founder
> gNewSense Developer.
> Digital Rights!
> Free Speech!
> Free Software!!!!!!
> Take back the NET!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From 2600denver at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 18:04:55 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 18:04:55 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Make LGs Phones Ring OFF THE HOOK!
Message-ID: <3922422b0706071504le92febo53b102c96d48d4ed@mail.gmail.com>

LG has decided to pay Microsoft for their "patents" on GNU/Linux. This
is ridiculous. Microsoft has provided no evidence that they have
patents and has been spewing lies that people need to pay up. Demand
that LG stop paying for Microsoft's patents and do not support them or
buy their products until they do so! And even better, make them pay
for the call:
(800) 243-0000
You can also email them a nastygram at
http://us.lge.com/support/contacts_gcsc.jsp

We need to stop the domino effect NOW if we want GNU/Linux to have a
future in the marketplace.

In Solidarity,
Comrade Ringo Kamens


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Thu Jun  7 18:15:45 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:15:45 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Make LGs Phones Ring OFF THE HOOK!
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0706071504le92febo53b102c96d48d4ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0706071504le92febo53b102c96d48d4ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46688391.10909@gatech.edu>

Ringo Kamens wrote:
> LG has decided to pay Microsoft for their "patents" on GNU/Linux. This
> is ridiculous. 

Wait, are you sure this is about GNU/Linux?  I have an LG phone, and I
think it runs a proprietary OS (Symbian).  However, it's still annoying
that people sign licensing agreements that legitimize software patents.

Matthew Flaschen


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 18:19:45 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 18:19:45 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Make LGs Phones Ring OFF THE HOOK!
In-Reply-To: <46688391.10909@gatech.edu>
References: <3922422b0706071504le92febo53b102c96d48d4ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<46688391.10909@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <3922422b0706071519p7cd97943w48109fe2fd7b8f7@mail.gmail.com>

Yes. LG uses Linux for lots of things like handheld devices, phones,
and other things in their electronics category. I don't know which
ones though.
Solidarity
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 6/7/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
> Ringo Kamens wrote:
> > LG has decided to pay Microsoft for their "patents" on GNU/Linux. This
> > is ridiculous.
>
> Wait, are you sure this is about GNU/Linux?  I have an LG phone, and I
> think it runs a proprietary OS (Symbian).  However, it's still annoying
> that people sign licensing agreements that legitimize software patents.
>
> Matthew Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Thu Jun  7 18:21:51 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:21:51 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [ifsa] Make LGs Phones Ring OFF THE HOOK!
In-Reply-To: <46688391.10909@gatech.edu>
References: <3922422b0706071504le92febo53b102c96d48d4ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<46688391.10909@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <466884FF.9050006@gatech.edu>

Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> Ringo Kamens wrote:
>> LG has decided to pay Microsoft for their "patents" on GNU/Linux. This
>> is ridiculous. 
> 
> Wait, are you sure this is about GNU/Linux?  I have an LG phone, and I
> think it runs a proprietary OS (Symbian).  However, it's still annoying
> that people sign licensing agreements that legitimize software patents.

PC World says it does include (GNU/?)Linux devices.  This is disturbing,
because it seems to be a license to LG, not its customers (like with
Novell and Xandros).  That would seem to be an actual violation of GPLv2
section 7.  What do people think?

Matthew Flaschen


From adolf at adolflam.com  Thu Jun  7 23:32:17 2007
From: adolf at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 11:32:17 +0800
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [ifsa] Make LGs Phones Ring OFF THE HOOK!
In-Reply-To: <466884FF.9050006@gatech.edu>
References: <3922422b0706071504le92febo53b102c96d48d4ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<46688391.10909@gatech.edu> <466884FF.9050006@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <731719f60706072032p5064f27ncbf3449b24344380@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like this trick from Microsoft is working. We need to think of a
way to stop it =/

-- 
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF Member #5279

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 23:35:50 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 23:35:50 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [ifsa] Make LGs Phones Ring OFF THE HOOK!
In-Reply-To: <731719f60706072032p5064f27ncbf3449b24344380@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0706071504le92febo53b102c96d48d4ed@mail.gmail.com>
	<46688391.10909@gatech.edu> <466884FF.9050006@gatech.edu>
	<731719f60706072032p5064f27ncbf3449b24344380@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0706072035y1025d4c8sdfe3b5302ae5b4ee@mail.gmail.com>

Why don't we have developers of GNU/Linux programs say Microsoft is
violating their intellectual property? I think it's time to take it
into the streets. The LG HQ is in South Korea, so that's kind of far
away unless there is anybody here. Protesting Microsoft won't do any
good, because they'll ride this bike until the wheels fall off. I
don't know what the best solution is. I think for now we just need to
send nastygrams to companies that do this and attack their financial
vectors. Pressure IT companies that buy from them or buy their
products. For instance, don't buy from HP if they sell/use Novell
servers.
Solidarity,
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 6/7/07, Lam YongXian <adolf at adolflam.com> wrote:
> Looks like this trick from Microsoft is working. We need to think of a
> way to stop it =/
>
> --
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF Member #5279
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Thu Jun  7 23:40:52 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:40:52 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [ifsa] Make LGs Phones Ring OFF THE HOOK!
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0706072035y1025d4c8sdfe3b5302ae5b4ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3922422b0706071504le92febo53b102c96d48d4ed@mail.gmail.com>	<46688391.10909@gatech.edu>
	<466884FF.9050006@gatech.edu>	<731719f60706072032p5064f27ncbf3449b24344380@mail.gmail.com>
	<3922422b0706072035y1025d4c8sdfe3b5302ae5b4ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4668CFC4.9050308@gatech.edu>

Ringo Kamens wrote:
> Why don't we have developers of GNU/Linux programs say Microsoft is
> violating their intellectual property?

Both because some don't believe in software patents, and because that's
a harder accusation to make without seeing the source code.

 I think it's time to take it
> into the streets. The LG HQ is in South Korea, so that's kind of far
> away unless there is anybody here. Protesting Microsoft won't do any
> good, because they'll ride this bike until the wheels fall off. I
> don't know what the best solution is. I think for now we just need to
> send nastygrams to companies that do this and attack their financial
> vectors.

I'd like to see the terms of the LG agreement.  It's not clear whether
LG made the license on behalf of their customers (like Novell), or
whether it was a direct license (which could violate GPLv2).  Also, for
people who are ready to see nastygrams, don't take that too literally;
be polite, but explicitly note that this makes you a less likely customer.

Matt Flaschen


From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Fri Jun  8 15:42:59 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:42:59 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Article printed on a Local newspaper.
Message-ID: <4669B143.7090705@binaryfreedom.info>

http://www.bostonnow.com/print_edition/BostonNOW%206-08-07.pdf
page 12

Chris Fernandez.

-- 
FSF member #697
BinaryFreedom Founder
gNewSense Developer.
Digital Rights!
Free Speech!
Free Software!!!!!!
Take back the NET!

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From 2600denver at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 15:52:35 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 15:52:35 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <8014696.1181312222196.JavaMail.weblogic@LGEGCSCSE1C>
References: <8014696.1181312222196.JavaMail.weblogic@LGEGCSCSE1C>
Message-ID: <3922422b0706081252qc38c659r8dddd0650a0ef4@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: customerservice <customerservice at lge.com>
Date: Jun 8, 2007 10:17 AM
Subject: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
To: Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com>


-----------Reply to Customer Enquiry------------
Dear Ringo, We are delighted to hear from you as our Valued Customer.
We regret your dissatisfaction with the actions of our licensing
division. We will forward your concerns to our product licensing
divisions for consideration. If you have other questions or concerns,
please do not hesitate to contact us again either via email, or by
calling our customer service division at 800-243-0000 at your
convenience. Mr. Neil Electronic Correspondence Executive (ECE) LG
Electronics USA 800-243-0000

-----------Customer Details------------
Name : Ringo Kamens
Street :
City :
State :
Zip Code :
Telephone # :
Country/Region : U.S.A.
E-mail : 2600denver at gmail.com

-----------Original Customer Enquiry------------
Received Date : 6/7/2007 17:31:53
The type of inquiry : Other
Product/Model No. : Others/


I am extremely disappointed that you signed a contract with Microsoft
to pay for IP and Patent Licensing. Microsoft has been telling people
for years that GNU/Linux infringes on its IP/Patents and yet has yet
to give us one single patent or line of code. I will not but your
products until you stop paying Microsoft money for patents that don't
even exist.


-------------------------------------------------


From PPBoy828 at aol.com  Sun Jun 10 02:34:06 2007
From: PPBoy828 at aol.com (PPBoy828@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 02:34:06 EDT
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
Message-ID: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>

wow



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Mon Jun 11 03:17:20 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 00:17:20 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>

I was looking over LG products and I am trying to figure out exactly
what and or if any patents they would or were infringing on that is
part of Microsoft.  Anyone have any idea?
We need to come up with some kind of FUD to scare Window users.  If MS
can do it I am quite sure we can find a area also besides viruses and
malware because users all ready know that and seem to not care.

I am going to relate with some of my EU buddies and see if I can fine
a vulnerability that I can prove that has not been written about yet.
There has to be something under all that badly written code that can
be found,  maybe even use of Linux codes.  Thats another area I cannot
understand, if MS is stating patents, how come Linux has not fired
back that there are Linux code in Window products.  I am quite sure
with all the badly written code someone could find Linux in MS
products somewhere.

Monetary wise most companies could not fight MS in a law suit as they
will just drag it on until the company could not afford to further
pursue the suit.  One can take a look at the EU and how long MS has
drug that along.

Now I am reading that Novell is stating that the final draft of the
GPL3 will allow them to pursue their MS pact.  If this is true are we
bending to MS ways?  Since I am not a patent or code lawyer I cannot
figure out exactly what Novell means but they sure made the statement.

George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux



On 6/10/07, PPBoy828 at aol.com <PPBoy828 at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> wow
>
>
> ________________________________
> See what's free at AOL.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Mon Jun 11 03:31:17 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:31:17 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>
	<26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>

member greenarrow1 wrote:
> I was looking over LG products and I am trying to figure out exactly
> what and or if any patents they would or were infringing on that is
> part of Microsoft.  Anyone have any idea?

No, but there are lots of possibilities.  That's the whole point of FUD.

> We need to come up with some kind of FUD to scare Window users.

Let's try to market without FUD.

> I am going to relate with some of my EU buddies and see if I can fine
> a vulnerability that I can prove that has not been written about yet.
> There has to be something under all that badly written code that can
> be found,  maybe even use of Linux codes.
> Thats another area I cannot
> understand, if MS is stating patents, how come Linux has not fired
> back that there are Linux code in Window products.


It's a lot harder to find in proprietary software, and there are fewer
Linux-related patents, but Microsoft is probably infringing.

> Monetary wise most companies could not fight MS in a law suit as they
> will just drag it on until the company could not afford to further
> pursue the suit.

There are some companies that can.  Think of IBM, Red Hat, Novell, Cisco.

> Now I am reading that Novell is stating that the final draft of the
> GPL3 will allow them to pursue their MS pact.  If this is true are we
> bending to MS ways?

Not exactly.  The FSF thinks that MS is a co-distibutor under the deal,
and so when Novell/Microsoft distributes GPLv3 code Microsoft's patent
covenant will apply to all GPLv3 users, solving the problem.  I'm a
little skeptical, but it's worth a try.  Anyway, no deals after 3/28/07
are allowed.  That means the Xandros deal, and any future ones, are
non-compliant and those distributors won't be able to use GPLv3
software.  In 2012, Novell's deal will expire and they'll be in the same
place as everyone else.

Best,

Matt Flaschen


From adolf at adolflam.com  Mon Jun 11 05:07:31 2007
From: adolf at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:07:31 +0800
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>
	<26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>
	<466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <731719f60706110207o336ab524la50bcf55a592271c@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible to form a community to pull all our funds together to
fight microsoft?

-- 
Lam YongXian
Adolflam.com

FSF Member #5279

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 11:18:16 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 01:18:16 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <731719f60706110207o336ab524la50bcf55a592271c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>
	<26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>
	<466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>
	<731719f60706110207o336ab524la50bcf55a592271c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120706110818l5ca3682eyf16f76d9fcf05b35@mail.gmail.com>

2007/6/11, Lam YongXian <adolf at adolflam.com>:
>
> Is it possible to form a community to pull all our funds together to
> fight microsoft?


If one is formed, maybe this organisation can spend its fund to get as many
patent as they can, and grants everyone permission to use the patent
provided they also grant everyone to use their patents under the same
condition; that is, GPL for patents, if you like.

--
> Lam YongXian
> Adolflam.com
>
> FSF Member #5279
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>



-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
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From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Mon Jun 11 21:51:23 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:51:23 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120706110818l5ca3682eyf16f76d9fcf05b35@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>	<26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>	<466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>	<731719f60706110207o336ab524la50bcf55a592271c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120706110818l5ca3682eyf16f76d9fcf05b35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <466DFC1B.8010300@gatech.edu>

Sunnz wrote:
> 2007/6/11, Lam YongXian <adolf at adolflam.com>:
>>
>> Is it possible to form a community to pull all our funds together to
>> fight microsoft?
> 
> 
> If one is formed, maybe this organisation can spend its fund to get as many
> patent as they can, and grants everyone permission to use the patent
> provided they also grant everyone to use their patents under the same
> condition; that is, GPL for patents, if you like.

This is similar to what OIN already does
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Invention_Network).  But they should
only sue if someone sues GNU/Linux distributors first.

Matt Flaschen


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Mon Jun 11 22:39:03 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:39:03 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>
	<26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>
	<466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <26d2590706111939q770ba3c8j6b0aadb690334401@mail.gmail.com>

> Not exactly.  The FSF thinks that MS is a co-distibutor under the deal,
> and so when Novell/Microsoft distributes GPLv3 code Microsoft's patent
> covenant will apply to all GPLv3 users, solving the problem.  I'm a
> little skeptical, but it's worth a try.  Anyway, no deals after 3/28/07
> are allowed.  That means the Xandros deal, and any future ones, are
> non-compliant and those distributors won't be able to use GPLv3
> software.  In 2012, Novell's deal will expire and they'll be in the same
> place as everyone else.

Aok, Thank you and I did not know the Novell-MS deal expired in 2012,
but still that is a long time away from the present.

I already dug up some dirt with Windows Genuine Advantage using my
forensic tools.  I have to dig through all my MS files now and find the replies
I have from MS about this program as they out right lied to me and a research
company.  Either that or in their last update of WGA they added it back in.
The area I have proof about is WGA accesses physical memory and changes it
unless the user has some type of program monitor that could prevent
this, but then
they could not validate Vista.  Most Window users would not even know this and
previously I pointed this out to MS with "Proof of Concept" and
backing by GrayMagic
from Israel.  They corrected this eventually but I tested all Windows
and it is back again.
Talk about a back door avenue this is it.  Since they corrected it
last time I did not
go public but this time I will after I get all my files together.  I
have always been
against this type of validation because there are other ways of
validating a OS that
does not punish the user making them feel like they are the ones
pirating softwares.
If all software was generated without proprietary codes this would not
even be needed,
but this program has a very high avenue for abuse.

I have packet examiner programs and can decode what is in packets and I have
caught this program requesting and sending private data back and forth to MS,
not only your personal info but what software and hardware is on your machine.
MS has no reason to even know this and it is none of their business what you run
on your computer, point blank and the European Union proved that.  The US DOJ
are either in their pockets or lack the power to stop MS.  I am
researching and I
will find where the WGA program violates US laws and I already know it
does violate
some state laws.  Once I gather enough evidence I will find someone in legal to
present my findings to the US Courts.  Money wise I could not do this
myself as I
own a small computer forensics company and could not afford a case against MS.
I do have friends in certain US computer security companies and I am working at
getting some insiders from IBM legal department contacts.

A lot of Vista base is built around the WGA as if one cannot get this
program to validate
Vista it reverts to a useless OS.  If I can place a kink in MS armor
by getting this program
banned by the courts it would place Vista in jeopardy.


George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux




On 6/11/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
> member greenarrow1 wrote:
> > I was looking over LG products and I am trying to figure out exactly
> > what and or if any patents they would or were infringing on that is
> > part of Microsoft.  Anyone have any idea?
>
> No, but there are lots of possibilities.  That's the whole point of FUD.
>
> > We need to come up with some kind of FUD to scare Window users.
>
> Let's try to market without FUD.
>
> > I am going to relate with some of my EU buddies and see if I can fine
> > a vulnerability that I can prove that has not been written about yet.
> > There has to be something under all that badly written code that can
> > be found,  maybe even use of Linux codes.
> > Thats another area I cannot
> > understand, if MS is stating patents, how come Linux has not fired
> > back that there are Linux code in Window products.
>
>
> It's a lot harder to find in proprietary software, and there are fewer
> Linux-related patents, but Microsoft is probably infringing.
>
> > Monetary wise most companies could not fight MS in a law suit as they
> > will just drag it on until the company could not afford to further
> > pursue the suit.
>
> There are some companies that can.  Think of IBM, Red Hat, Novell, Cisco.
>
> > Now I am reading that Novell is stating that the final draft of the
> > GPL3 will allow them to pursue their MS pact.  If this is true are we
> > bending to MS ways?
>
.
>
> Best,
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From sunnzy at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 01:31:23 2007
From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:31:23 +1000
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <466DFC1B.8010300@gatech.edu>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>
	<26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>
	<466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>
	<731719f60706110207o336ab524la50bcf55a592271c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b35fa3120706110818l5ca3682eyf16f76d9fcf05b35@mail.gmail.com>
	<466DFC1B.8010300@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <b35fa3120706112231g41cdac6am71f48c6b9c1b79c2@mail.gmail.com>

2007/6/12, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu>:
>
> Sunnz wrote:
> > 2007/6/11, Lam YongXian <adolf at adolflam.com>:
> >>
> >> Is it possible to form a community to pull all our funds together to
> >> fight microsoft?
> >
> >
> > If one is formed, maybe this organisation can spend its fund to get as
> many
> > patent as they can, and grants everyone permission to use the patent
> > provided they also grant everyone to use their patents under the same
> > condition; that is, GPL for patents, if you like.
>
> This is similar to what OIN already does
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Invention_Network).  But they should
> only sue if someone sues GNU/Linux distributors first.


And Novell is one of the founder of OIN? But then they still have this deal
with MS... what are they thinking? Are they just getting "free money" from
MS?

Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>



-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
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From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Tue Jun 12 01:48:15 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 01:48:15 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <b35fa3120706112231g41cdac6am71f48c6b9c1b79c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>	<26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>	<466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>	<731719f60706110207o336ab524la50bcf55a592271c@mail.gmail.com>	<b35fa3120706110818l5ca3682eyf16f76d9fcf05b35@mail.gmail.com>	<466DFC1B.8010300@gatech.edu>
	<b35fa3120706112231g41cdac6am71f48c6b9c1b79c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <466E339F.9040006@gatech.edu>

Sunnz wrote:
> 
> And Novell is one of the founder of OIN? But then they still have this deal
> with MS... what are they thinking?

Companies change just like people.  I guess Novell's story is that they
no longer thought OIN was enough to fend MS off.  Luckily, the OIN
patents aren't affected by any of this.

> Are they just getting "free money" from
> MS?

They did get some money from MS (and have to pay royalties back), but I
think the real point was to sell to the middle managers who are scared
of MS's FUD.

Matt Flaschen


From nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt  Wed Jun 13 17:04:33 2007
From: nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt (Nuno J. Silva)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:04:33 +0100
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Windows Vista in Portugal
Message-ID: <20070613220433.5f03e58a@localhost>

Just FYI:

Two weeks ago, the portuguese government announced a new initiative
which would give our students and teachers the opportunity to buy
computers and have internet access for cheaper prices.

A week ago, another announcement was made, about the "software partner"
for the initiative. Guess who is going to "provide" software for the
computers? And guess what software are we talking about... "Just" a
"little" corporation from Redmond...

Having national FLOSS projects, as CaixaM?gica[1] and Alinex
[2], there is no doubt that if there was given an opportunity to show
proposals, these two projects would be able to offer something
different, cheaper and plenty of freedom. But our government must
have a different idea of what's in our Law...

ANSOL[3], our national association for free software, has also
published a press release[4] (in portuguese), and this subject is being
discussed in (at least) two portuguese free software lists, the ANSOL
one [5], and another, about free software in public administration [6].

I've also slashdotted about this in english [7], explaining briefly what
is the initiative and what am I afraid of.

[1] <http://www.caixamagica.pt/>
[2] <http://www.alinex.org/>
[3] <http://ansol.org/>
[4] <http://blog.softwarelivre.sapo.pt/2007/06/05/que-casamento-e-este/>
[5] <http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral>
[6]
<http://www.softwarelivre.citiap.gov.pt:8080/mailman/listinfo/sw_livre>
[7] <http://slashdot.org/~nunojsilva/journal/173803/>
-- 
Nuno J. Silva
Lisbon, Portugal
Homepage: <http://njsg.no.sapo.pt/> & <http://palpatine.hopto.org/>
Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org

Using Claws Mail 2.9.0

Gentoo Base System release 1.12.9
Linux 2.6.17-gentoo-r7 i686 Pentium II (Deschutes)

-=-=-
HAL 9000: Dave. Put down those Windows disks, Dave. DAVE!
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From 2600denver at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 17:06:37 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:06:37 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Windows Vista in Portugal
In-Reply-To: <20070613220433.5f03e58a@localhost>
References: <20070613220433.5f03e58a@localhost>
Message-ID: <3922422b0706131406y6989fc2fq3e1cf8e24ff1c808@mail.gmail.com>

If you can give us contacts for Portugese officials, we can start an
anti-vista letter/call campaign.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 6/13/07, Nuno J. Silva <nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
> Just FYI:
>
> Two weeks ago, the portuguese government announced a new initiative
> which would give our students and teachers the opportunity to buy
> computers and have internet access for cheaper prices.
>
> A week ago, another announcement was made, about the "software partner"
> for the initiative. Guess who is going to "provide" software for the
> computers? And guess what software are we talking about... "Just" a
> "little" corporation from Redmond...
>
> Having national FLOSS projects, as CaixaM?gica[1] and Alinex
> [2], there is no doubt that if there was given an opportunity to show
> proposals, these two projects would be able to offer something
> different, cheaper and plenty of freedom. But our government must
> have a different idea of what's in our Law...
>
> ANSOL[3], our national association for free software, has also
> published a press release[4] (in portuguese), and this subject is being
> discussed in (at least) two portuguese free software lists, the ANSOL
> one [5], and another, about free software in public administration [6].
>
> I've also slashdotted about this in english [7], explaining briefly what
> is the initiative and what am I afraid of.
>
> [1] <http://www.caixamagica.pt/>
> [2] <http://www.alinex.org/>
> [3] <http://ansol.org/>
> [4] <http://blog.softwarelivre.sapo.pt/2007/06/05/que-casamento-e-este/>
> [5] <http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral>
> [6]
> <http://www.softwarelivre.citiap.gov.pt:8080/mailman/listinfo/sw_livre>
> [7] <http://slashdot.org/~nunojsilva/journal/173803/>
> --
> Nuno J. Silva
> Lisbon, Portugal
> Homepage: <http://njsg.no.sapo.pt/> & <http://palpatine.hopto.org/>
> Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org
>
> Using Claws Mail 2.9.0
>
> Gentoo Base System release 1.12.9
> Linux 2.6.17-gentoo-r7 i686 Pentium II (Deschutes)
>
> -=-=-
> HAL 9000: Dave. Put down those Windows disks, Dave. DAVE!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>
>


From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Wed Jun 13 17:42:47 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:42:47 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Windows Vista in Portugal
In-Reply-To: <20070613220433.5f03e58a@localhost>
References: <20070613220433.5f03e58a@localhost>
Message-ID: <467064D7.8030006@binaryfreedom.info>

I think you guys need more activists and lobbying, unfurtunally projects 
and organizations  alone don't convince politicians by them self...
good luck keep up the fight!


Chris F
http://www.binaryfreedom.info




From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Wed Jun 13 17:44:14 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:44:14 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Windows Vista in Portugal
In-Reply-To: <3922422b0706131406y6989fc2fq3e1cf8e24ff1c808@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070613220433.5f03e58a@localhost>
	<3922422b0706131406y6989fc2fq3e1cf8e24ff1c808@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4670652E.80902@binaryfreedom.info>

Ringo Kamens wrote:
> If you can give us contacts for Portugese officials, we can start an
> anti-vista letter/call campaign.
> Comrade Ringo Kamens
>
> O
Yes indeed we can help, but still we need local people, for translations 
and
personal means.. personal contacts..

so if t hey are willing  to let us help them... we will fight with them.


Chris F.
http://www.binaryfreedom.info


From nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt  Fri Jun 15 09:39:31 2007
From: nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt (Nuno J. Silva)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:39:31 +0100
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Windows Vista in Portugal
In-Reply-To: <4670652E.80902@binaryfreedom.info>
References: <20070613220433.5f03e58a@localhost>
	<3922422b0706131406y6989fc2fq3e1cf8e24ff1c808@mail.gmail.com>
	<4670652E.80902@binaryfreedom.info>
Message-ID: <20070615143931.5a33d0c7@localhost>

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:44:14 -0400
rek2GNU/Linux <rek2 at binaryfreedom.info> wrote:

> Ringo Kamens wrote:
> > If you can give us contacts for Portugese officials, we can start an
> > anti-vista letter/call campaign.
> > Comrade Ringo Kamens
> >
> > O
> Yes indeed we can help, but still we need local people, for
> translations and
> personal means.. personal contacts..
> 
> so if t hey are willing  to let us help them... we will fight with
> them.
> 

I've sent a message to the ANSOL list linking this thread, so this will
be discussed in the next days (at least I hope that :-).

I got also one reply saying that, accordingly to other information
source, the operating system will be Windows XP.

I found no article saying that, but I found another page[1] saying it
will be Vista. And this is from the "Plano Tecnologico" (technological
plan) homepage.

"Better": this page presents "Curriculum Microsoft de Literacia
Digital" (Microsoft Digital Literacy Curriculum, in a free
translation), and says that Microsoft will, in the agreement, made that
"knowledge" available to "everyone" trough a public site[2].

Nice. I enter the site and click on "Iniciar este curso" (start this
course). Strange. The only content is an error message complaining
about a non up-to-date MSIE version...


Fortunately we have also good news: the ministry of education is
going to give every school access to a /Moodle/ e-learning
platform[3].


(And, again, everything is in portuguese. Two of these sites have
enlish versions, but the articles I'm linking have no translation.)
[1]
<http://www.planotecnologico.pt/InnerPage.aspx?idCat=19&idMasterCat=17&idLang=1&idContent=1481&idLayout=6&site=planotecnologico>
[2] <www.literaciadigital.pt>
[3]
<http://www.portugal.gov.pt/Portal/PT/Governos/Governos_Constitucionais/GC17/Ministerios/ME/Comunicacao/Notas_de_Imprensa/20070613_ME_Com_Ensino_Online.htm>
-- 
Nuno J. Silva
Lisbon, Portugal
Homepage: <http://njsg.no.sapo.pt/> & <http://palpatine.hopto.org/>
Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org

Using Claws Mail 2.9.0

Gentoo Base System release 1.12.9
Linux 2.6.17-gentoo-r7 i686 Pentium II (Deschutes)

-=-=-
"Nobody will ever need more than 640k RAM!" -- Bill Gates, 1981
"Windows 95 needs at least 8 MB RAM." -- Bill Gates, 1996
"Nobody will ever need Windows 95." -- logical conclusion
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From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Mon Jun 18 00:28:19 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:28:19 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Gpl3 and Linspire
Message-ID: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>

I cannot figure out why Kevin from Linspire decided to partner up with
Microsoft mainly because he was one of the biggest protesters about
the Novell/MS deal.  I am trying to figure out why he turned and was
wondering, does he know something about Gpl3 I do not?  The way I read
the final draft Linspire would be doomed in the future for signing a
deal with MS but after reading Kevin's remarks he does not think so.
I also think this was a avenue where he could get big time
advertisement for Linspire/Freespire as I see the media had this deal
all over it.

So does anyone know if there is a loop hole in the Gpl3?  or, is this
a deal that is going to back fire in Kevin's face?  At one time I was
a member of the Freespire development group but dropped out after
realizing if was not proactive but rather closed to just the Linspire
developers.  I still receive their list emails because I want to see
what they are doing which has dwindled to maybe a email every couple
of weeks.

To be honest I am looking for any information I can fire back at Kevin
for making what I see as a disastrous mistake.  I do not want to flame
him but point out areas that are going to suffer because of this deal.

George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Mon Jun 18 00:39:19 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 00:39:19 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>

member greenarrow1 wrote:
> I cannot figure out why Kevin from Linspire decided to partner up with
> Microsoft mainly because he was one of the biggest protesters about
> the Novell/MS deal.

Really?  Do you have a source for this?

> I am trying to figure out why he turned and was
> wondering, does he know something about Gpl3 I do not?  The way I read
> the final draft Linspire would be doomed in the future for signing a
> deal with MS but after reading Kevin's remarks he does not think so.

As far as I can tell, you're right.  They're basically screwed unless
they back out of the deal.  No need to speculate though.  GPLv3 is in 11
days, and I predict a lot of programs will jump right away (not to
mention GNU).  It won't be long before GPLv3 updates are needed to
address critical security vulnerabilities, and we'll see what happens.

Matthew Flaschen



From xaos at xaositects.com  Mon Jun 18 13:01:08 2007
From: xaos at xaositects.com (xaos)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:01:08 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>

On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 00:39 -0400, Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> member greenarrow1 wrote:
> > I cannot figure out why Kevin from Linspire decided to partner up with
> > Microsoft mainly because he was one of the biggest protesters about
> > the Novell/MS deal.
> 
> Really?  Do you have a source for this?

This letter would seem to contradict his current stance.

http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=36

I understand people change... money has a grand influence in a
capitalist society.

Tom

> 
> > I am trying to figure out why he turned and was
> > wondering, does he know something about Gpl3 I do not?  The way I read
> > the final draft Linspire would be doomed in the future for signing a
> > deal with MS but after reading Kevin's remarks he does not think so.
> 
> As far as I can tell, you're right.  They're basically screwed unless
> they back out of the deal.  No need to speculate though.  GPLv3 is in 11
> days, and I predict a lot of programs will jump right away (not to
> mention GNU).  It won't be long before GPLv3 updates are needed to
> address critical security vulnerabilities, and we'll see what happens.
> 
> Matthew Flaschen
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate


From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info  Mon Jun 18 13:20:06 2007
From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:20:06 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>
	<1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>
Message-ID: <4676BEC6.8070005@binaryfreedom.info>

xaos wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 00:39 -0400, Matthew Flaschen wrote:
>   
>> member greenarrow1 wrote:
>>     
>>> I cannot figure out why Kevin from Linspire decided to partner up with
>>> Microsoft mainly because he was one of the biggest protesters about
>>> the Novell/MS deal.
>>>       
>> Really?  Do you have a source for this?
>>     
>
> This letter would seem to contradict his current stance.
>
> http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=36
>
> I understand people change... money has a grand influence in a
> capitalist society.
>
> Tom
>
>   
unfortunately yes,
Chris Fernandez

-- 
FSF member #697
BinaryFreedom Founder
gNewSense Developer.
Digital Rights!
Free Speech!
Free Software!!!!!!
Take back the NET!

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From foetsch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 14:16:28 2007
From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:16:28 +0200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Bulk] Re:  Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>
	<1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>
Message-ID: <4676CBFC.7040307@yahoo.com>

xaos wrote:
> I understand people change... money has a grand influence in a
> capitalist society.

I can't see a change. Linspire never valued freedom. As far as I know, 
they always were the prototypical "open-source company" that RMS 
describes in his essays.

Don't forget that they're the company that Eric Raymond chose to put his 
"World Domination" plans into practice 
(http://catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html)



member greenarrow1 wrote:
 > So does anyone know if there is a loop hole in the Gpl3?

If the recent deals are causing some doubts -- well, that's just the "D" 
in FUD...


Kind Regards,
M.F.



From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Mon Jun 18 15:56:18 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:56:18 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>
	<1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>
Message-ID: <4676E362.6090302@gatech.edu>

xaos wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 00:39 -0400, Matthew Flaschen wrote:
>> member greenarrow1 wrote:
>>> I cannot figure out why Kevin from Linspire decided to partner up with
>>> Microsoft mainly because he was one of the biggest protesters about
>>> the Novell/MS deal.
>> Really?  Do you have a source for this?
> 
> This letter would seem to contradict his current stance.
> 
> http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=36

Thanks.  It's hard to see how:

"This part of their agreement, by its very nature, suggests two things:
1) that Microsoft HAS IP in open source Linux, and 2) that Microsoft
should be paid a licensing fee for this IP. I don't think the rest of
the world agrees with these points, or that they've ever been proven in
any court. By making such assertions, and now with Novell as their
poster child for these claims, Microsoft is in a position to either try
to kill open source Linux with exorbitant fees, or to make sure they
share in its success, should they prove unable to kill it."

doesn't apply to Linspire's own patent covenants, regardless of
rationalizations.

Matthew Flaschen


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Mon Jun 18 15:57:41 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:57:41 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Bulk] Re:  Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <4676CBFC.7040307@yahoo.com>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>	<1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>
	<4676CBFC.7040307@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4676E3B5.3010106@gatech.edu>

Michael F?tsch wrote:
> xaos wrote:
>> I understand people change... money has a grand influence in a
>> capitalist society.
> 
> I can't see a change. Linspire never valued freedom. As far as I know, 
> they always were the prototypical "open-source company" that RMS 
> describes in his essays.

It's not fair to tar the whole open source community with ESR's views.
Linspire isn't an open source company any more than they are a free
software one.  A significant amount of their software is proprietary,
and that isn't open source or free.

Matt Flaschen


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Mon Jun 18 23:47:30 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:47:30 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Bulk] Re: Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <4676E3B5.3010106@gatech.edu>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu> <1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>
	<4676CBFC.7040307@yahoo.com> <4676E3B5.3010106@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <26d2590706182047q4c165655p4f89e9245c022807@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/18/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
> Michael F?tsch wrote:
> > xaos wrote:
> >> I understand people change... money has a grand influence in a
> >> capitalist society.
> >
> > I can't see a change. Linspire never valued freedom. As far as I know,
> > they always were the prototypical "open-source company" that RMS
> > describes in his essays.
>
> It's not fair to tar the whole open source community with ESR's views.
> Linspire isn't an open source company any more than they are a free
> software one.  A significant amount of their software is proprietary,
> and that isn't open source or free.

When I became involved with Freespire ( the OpenSource choice over
Linspire) I almost immediately seen that this was a big farce.  They
tried to open it to a community but did not allow the community to
input.  When there was very good input they hid it from others view
unless one happened to receive the original list input.  It was a
Linspire developer dominated community which did not allow anything
that was said against any Linspire programs.  I tried to get them to
place some open source programs in lieu of the proprietary ones and
was immediately shot down even if I proved the open source program was
better secured plus usability was as good.

>
> Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
I am still working on the anti trust violations in Vista.  The one
area I do not fully understand is if a program violated the EU anti
trust why it is not a violation in the US because under our laws they
are the same type violations.  No wonder why some of the US states are
in a uproar over what the feds found and seem to just pass by them.
In looking at past cases against Microsoft it looks like one would
have to choose the right area to file in and not the actual case proof
to win.  The mid-west is ideal as MS loses most cases presented in
that area and even lose their appeals.  Federal is bad as MS wins most
cases against them.  The way to go is individual state cases or
enjoining multiple states together.  I know this is a tedious but
getting the state Attorney Generals together would be the best way to
go against Microsoft.  This way they do not have the federal help in
only getting a slap on the wrist.  I have experience from the AT&T
anti-trust back in the late 1960's to 1970's and to take them down
took a vast amount of time.  One would have to be blind not to see the
areas Vista violate but proving it is another thing, especially to a
US Federal Judge.  Proving that Microsoft is trying to monopolize the
internet with Vista and their other programs is the reality.  Do not
even think that if I do prove my case against them they will not use
the recent deals in any court actions to try and prove they have Linux
partners.  But, just maybe I can use the deals against Microsoft.

George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux

From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Tue Jun 19 00:32:36 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:32:36 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Bulk] Re: Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <26d2590706182047q4c165655p4f89e9245c022807@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>
	<1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>	<4676CBFC.7040307@yahoo.com>
	<4676E3B5.3010106@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706182047q4c165655p4f89e9245c022807@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46775C64.2050006@gatech.edu>

member greenarrow1 wrote:

> When I became involved with Freespire ( the OpenSource choice over
> Linspire) I almost immediately seen that this was a big farce.

Well, regular Freespire is still very proprietary, but supposedly
Freespire OSS at least makes an effort to exclude all proprietary software.

Matt Flaschen


From foetsch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 19 08:37:49 2007
From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?windows-1252?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:37:49 +0200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Bulk] Re:  Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <4676E3B5.3010106@gatech.edu>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>	<1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>	<4676CBFC.7040307@yahoo.com>
	<4676E3B5.3010106@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <4677CE1D.3080901@yahoo.com>

Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> It's not fair to tar the whole open source community with ESR's views.

Not the whole community. I'm referring to Linspire specifically, because 
as far as I know, Eric Raymond is involved with them. See, for example:

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS2603651519.html

> Linspire isn't an open source company any more than they are a free
> software one.

I'm using "open source company" in the sense it's described in this essay:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html

"In effect, these companies seek to gain the favorable cachet of ?open 
source? for their proprietary software products?even though those are 
not ?open source software??because they have some relationship to free 
software or because the same company also maintains some free software."

 > A significant amount of their software is proprietary,
> and that isn't open source or free.

This seems to make them an "open source company" just in the sense of 
the essay.

Anyway, I don't want to criticize Linspire any more than I criticize 
Novell or Xandros, or ESR, for that matter. I don't use their products 
and I don't share their views. I just don't understand why it's 
surprising that Linspire made this move...

Kind Regards,
M.F.



From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Tue Jun 19 13:31:36 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:31:36 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Bulk] Re:  Gpl3 and Linspire
In-Reply-To: <4677CE1D.3080901@yahoo.com>
References: <26d2590706172128t4b970aaaq3bc9c9fa026b58f0@mail.gmail.com>	<46760C77.9030101@gatech.edu>	<1182186068.21831.4.camel@xaos>	<4676CBFC.7040307@yahoo.com>	<4676E3B5.3010106@gatech.edu>
	<4677CE1D.3080901@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <467812F8.2040504@gatech.edu>

Michael F?tsch wrote:
> Matthew Flaschen wrote:
>> It's not fair to tar the whole open source community with ESR's views.
> 
> Not the whole community. I'm referring to Linspire specifically, because 
> as far as I know, Eric Raymond is involved with them.

That's true.

>  > A significant amount of their software is proprietary,
>> and that isn't open source or free.
> 
> This seems to make them an "open source company" just in the sense of 
> the essay.

Yes, but I don't think most in the open source community would agree
that a company distributing mostly proprietary software is an "open
source company".  In that respect, the essay isn't fair either.

> Anyway, I don't want to criticize Linspire any more than I criticize 
> Novell or Xandros, or ESR, for that matter. I don't use their products 
> and I don't share their views. I just don't understand why it's 
> surprising that Linspire made this move...

Oh, it certainly isn't.  I was just expecting Mandriva first.

Matthew Flaschen


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Wed Jun 20 23:10:59 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:10:59 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
Message-ID: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>

I just finished reading a interesting article about Linux and newbies.
 Rather then rendering the link and boring everyone with the whole
writing I will iterate one area I felt was very true.  I even did a
internet search like the writer did and I was amazed of the lack of up
to date tutorials for helping newbies find material or installing, or
just using Linux.  I mean I found some but they were not written for a
newbie or they were so lackadasical I could not even understand them.
Plus the fact they kept referring to computers with 128MB RAM and P2
computers, I found if I was a windows user I would think that Linux is
old and no one with new computers use it.  Why we keep stating this
fact is beyond me since most window users now have at least P4 or
better AMD computers with minimum of 526MB (most 1G now), better video
and sound.

Search led me to sites that were for Linux users to Linux users and
not for newbies, written only for a knowledgeable Linux user, etc.  I
admit if I go through page after page I find information but this
should be on the first page they search.  Now if the user knew exactly
what distro they wanted there was some information but for a user who
did not know anything about Linux and wanting to learn the basics
where they would understand what is written there is really not much
available.  A lot of the information I did find was very poorly
designed, very out dated, and was detrimental in attracting a window
user.

Now do not start pointing me to links but show me where this info is
that the person searching doesnt have to flip page after page to find
it.  A newbie is not going to do that and like was written in what I
was reading I agree that if it is not on the first or second page the
newbie is going to lose interest or if he read info that he does not
understand he will leave also.

We want people to switch but we are also not making it easy for them
to find current and updated material.  How many window users really
even know how to search?  They going to enter Linux, Linux Newbie,
Linux tutorials.  Seriously do the latter and then read what is there.
 Not very well written or it is dated material.  Here we are updating
Linux everywhere but no one is looking at tutorials for new users that
a new user can read.  We seem to have forgotten that a new user does
not have the know how of developers and most window users have never
had to install a operating system before.

George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 23:13:40 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:13:40 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3922422b0706202013u6bee9386sed0e6251bb7c708d@mail.gmail.com>

I think that with things like Ubuntu (the free version) coming out,
this isn't a real issue. Ubuntu is very newbie-friendly and of all the
computer-illiterates I've switched I haven't had any major problems.
But this is something we need to continue considering.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 6/20/07, member greenarrow1 <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> wrote:
> I just finished reading a interesting article about Linux and newbies.
>  Rather then rendering the link and boring everyone with the whole
> writing I will iterate one area I felt was very true.  I even did a
> internet search like the writer did and I was amazed of the lack of up
> to date tutorials for helping newbies find material or installing, or
> just using Linux.  I mean I found some but they were not written for a
> newbie or they were so lackadasical I could not even understand them.
> Plus the fact they kept referring to computers with 128MB RAM and P2
> computers, I found if I was a windows user I would think that Linux is
> old and no one with new computers use it.  Why we keep stating this
> fact is beyond me since most window users now have at least P4 or
> better AMD computers with minimum of 526MB (most 1G now), better video
> and sound.
>
> Search led me to sites that were for Linux users to Linux users and
> not for newbies, written only for a knowledgeable Linux user, etc.  I
> admit if I go through page after page I find information but this
> should be on the first page they search.  Now if the user knew exactly
> what distro they wanted there was some information but for a user who
> did not know anything about Linux and wanting to learn the basics
> where they would understand what is written there is really not much
> available.  A lot of the information I did find was very poorly
> designed, very out dated, and was detrimental in attracting a window
> user.
>
> Now do not start pointing me to links but show me where this info is
> that the person searching doesnt have to flip page after page to find
> it.  A newbie is not going to do that and like was written in what I
> was reading I agree that if it is not on the first or second page the
> newbie is going to lose interest or if he read info that he does not
> understand he will leave also.
>
> We want people to switch but we are also not making it easy for them
> to find current and updated material.  How many window users really
> even know how to search?  They going to enter Linux, Linux Newbie,
> Linux tutorials.  Seriously do the latter and then read what is there.
>  Not very well written or it is dated material.  Here we are updating
> Linux everywhere but no one is looking at tutorials for new users that
> a new user can read.  We seem to have forgotten that a new user does
> not have the know how of developers and most window users have never
> had to install a operating system before.
>
> George
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Wed Jun 20 23:57:04 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:57:04 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4679F710.4070104@gatech.edu>

member greenarrow1 wrote:

> Now if the user knew exactly what distro they wanted there was some 
> information but for a user who did not know anything about Linux and 
> wanting to learn the basics where they would understand what is written
> there is really not much available.

Well, this is the problem.  It is impossible to teach a newbie "generic"
GNU/Linux.  They need step-by-step instructions, with precise detail,
and you can only provide that for a particular version of a particular
distribution.  So hopefully they /will/ hear of a distro by the time
they get serious about installation (I think this is actually fairly
common).

If not, they still need to find distro-specific instructions when they
search for "Linux tutorial" or whatever.  The solution there is
Google-bombing.  Because of the nature of GNU/Linux, though, no
distribution is dominant to become the standard site for such searches.

So the best thing to do is recommend a distro to people in person.

Matt Flaschen


From iskren.chernev at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 04:15:52 2007
From: iskren.chernev at gmail.com (Iskren Chernev)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:15:52 +0300
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <4679F710.4070104@gatech.edu>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4679F710.4070104@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <587fc9ca0706210115l7036db68h3767dd1add87128b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone!

I'd like to point out some things about 'Newbies'. Everyone is busy
nowadays and uses a
computer as an instrument to be more productive. If a typical windows
user has problems
with their computer, they will pay for professional help, or (how it
happens here in my
country and in many others) ask a more experienced friend for help.
They (refer to typical user) are so concerned that computers are
extremely complicated that they do NOT believe
they can fix it in their own.

In Linux nowadays most problems for newbies, I think, come from
hardware and more
precisely - additional gadgets (printers, scanners, usb drives, etc.).
I'll give an example. My
girlfriend has a Xerox Phaser 3117 laser printer. Previously on fedora
4/6, now in Ubuntu
7.04 I had to install it. Almost every distribution uses CUPS but
unfortunately this printer is not
listed there. I tried several other Xerox drivers but non of them
worked. I searched and
search and searched ... and there were sites telling me that this
printer works fantastic with
some kind of generic Post Script Driver .... but it didn't. I
understood that there were specific
files for cups, specifying the different printers, so I only needed
that file (*.ppd). I kept
searching but non such file was found :(. Recently when I installed
ubuntu 7.04 and had the
same problem, the searches I made gave the result - I had to use the
driver for Samsung
ML 6040 (just tell CUPS it was samsung). I have to admit - this is NOT
user friendly! I don't
understand why there isn't a big and cool web site for cups where
every newbie can find the
information needed. And why is Phaser 3117 not in the list with the
driver for samsung - I
don't thing it is too complicated and time consuming to do that.

My point was that most newbies will have problems whit connecting
their printers, scanners
etc. and the information they need is specific to the distribution and
to the device itself. This
thing do not need tutorials - they need properly managed 'systems'
(for example CUPS).
Others thing that newbies need are: office and multimedia. The
openoffice is pretty similar to
the MS one, and the multimedia nowadays is becoming easier and easier
to use (I was
surprised how good Ubuntu 7.04 managed missing codecs :) ).

Tutorials are for people who want to learn. Newbies don't want to
learn - they want to use with
as little effort as possible. I have to admit that I'm kind of newbie
to linux (only use it for 2
years), but I want to learn about it and I don't care that tutorials
are old and outdated,
because I learn a bit from any one of them. I thing a well supported
forum for each
distribution (but only ONE such forum for every distro) is enough to
keep newbies happy :)


Iskren Chernev


From foetsch at yah