From foetsch at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  1 16:19:08 2007
From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 22:19:08 +0200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
Message-ID: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com>

Something for badvista.org:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forget-about-the-WGA-20-Windows-Vista-Features-and-Services-Harvest-User-Data-for-Microsoft-58752.shtml


From johns at fsf.org  Mon Jul  2 11:54:17 2007
From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:54:17 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
In-Reply-To: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com> (Michael =?utf-8?Q?F=C3=B6tsch's?=
	message of "Sun, 01 Jul 2007 22:19:08 +0200")
References: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87hcom94ye.fsf@spider.office.fsf.org>

Michael F?tsch <foetsch at yahoo.com> writes:

> Something for badvista.org:
>
> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forget-about-the-WGA-20-Windows-Vista-Features-and-Services-Harvest-User-Data-for-Microsoft-58752.shtml
>

Very interesting article -- adding it to the site feed, thanks.


-- 
John Sullivan
Campaigns Manager            | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org
51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl.  | Fax:   (617)542-2652     | http://www.gnu.org
Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA    | GPG:   AE8600B6          | http://www.fsf.org

"Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it
wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of
course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense."
    --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista"


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Mon Jul  2 23:38:21 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 20:38:21 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
In-Reply-To: <87hcom94ye.fsf@spider.office.fsf.org>
References: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com> <87hcom94ye.fsf@spider.office.fsf.org>
Message-ID: <26d2590707022038r10a29fa5uef6c66c149aea2cf@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/07, John Sullivan <johns at fsf.org> wrote:
> Michael F?tsch <foetsch at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > Something for badvista.org:
> >
> > http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forget-about-the-WGA-20-Windows-Vista-Features-and-Services-Harvest-User-Data-for-Microsoft-58752.shtml
> >
>
> Very interesting article -- adding it to the site feed, thanks.
>
>
> --
> John Sullivan
> Campaigns Manager            | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org
> 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl.  | Fax:   (617)542-2652     | http://www.gnu.org
> Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA    | GPG:   AE8600B6          | http://www.fsf.org
>
> "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it
> wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of
> course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense."
>     --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

I been telling everyone that Vista feeds info to MS since the first
Beta of Vista was out. All it takes is a bit of packet gathering to
see what is going back and forth.  The only problem is when the user
agrees with the EULA and license they are accepting this.  You can ask
most home users what the EULA is and get "Whats a EULA?",  plus for
some reason they just do not care.  I explained this to many a Window
user and my response I receive is well Microsoft is not doing anything
to me so what if they get my info.  Or, they already know.  My
question is this:  Are they reaping credit card information, privacy
information (medical or personal), or whatever else without the users
consent or knowledge?

It seems people are afraid to speak out, even the security companies.
The other area is to find this information one must violate Microsoft
EULA's, licenses so this places the finder in a precarious position of
being sued or taken to court by Microsoft and its mass of lawyers and
money.  One has to thread lightly in this area as even the DOJ only
rendered a slap on the wrist to MS for anti-trust compared to the
European Union.  One does not know who MS has in their pockets in the
US and even with proof it could pose a considerable threat upon the
one who goes after Microsoft.  I was advised to go the individual
state route and not federal just because of what I just wrote.


George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux

From 69johnny at comcast.net  Mon Jul  2 23:54:22 2007
From: 69johnny at comcast.net (The Johnny Person)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:54:22 -0500
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
In-Reply-To: <26d2590707022038r10a29fa5uef6c66c149aea2cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com> <87hcom94ye.fsf@spider.office.fsf.org>
	<26d2590707022038r10a29fa5uef6c66c149aea2cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.tuvegwvctfb25q@johnny-machine>

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:38:21 -0500, member greenarrow1  
<greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> wrote:

> The other area is to find this information one must violate Microsoft
> EULA's, licenses so this places the finder in a precarious position

Explain this a little further?   "What information finding" violates the  
EULA?
The method used or the very act/intent itself?


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Tue Jul  3 01:42:36 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 22:42:36 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
In-Reply-To: <op.tuvegwvctfb25q@johnny-machine>
References: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com> <87hcom94ye.fsf@spider.office.fsf.org>
	<26d2590707022038r10a29fa5uef6c66c149aea2cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tuvegwvctfb25q@johnny-machine>
Message-ID: <26d2590707022242y7d87c7c8vf23096d95b8ae87e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/07, The Johnny Person <69johnny at comcast.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:38:21 -0500, member greenarrow1
> <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> wrote:
>
> > The other area is to find this information one must violate Microsoft
> > EULA's, licenses so this places the finder in a precarious position
>
> Explain this a little further?   "What information finding" violates the
> EULA?
> The method used or the very act/intent itself?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
Maybe a little of both.  If I told MS that portions of their software
violate privacy laws they will come back and ask me how I derived this
info.  If I told them I did some modifications of their programs to
see exactly what is being requested and then sent I would violate
their EULA and license which does not allow the user to do this.  It
is not like Linux where I can dive into the software itself as it is
all protected, ie proprietary.  If I disable DRM then at the next
Window Update this would be reflected because in their scan it would
detect the disabled program.  Under the EULA and license I have no
right to disable DRM.

When one buys Vista one is restricted to what they can modify (not
talking functions) in the Vista programs.  You can block transmissions
but there are a lot of areas you cannot disable.  If i disassemble to
see what is going on that violates the EULA and License.   I have done
a lot of research in both the US anti-trust and the EU case.  I find a
lot of troublesome areas in the US case compared to the EU one and I
know laws are different in countries but some areas are really in the
gray zone.  Not being a anti-trust lawyer it takes a lot of research
to find out why and I have still not come to any final conclusions.
Some areas where both laws are almost the same it appears the DOJ was
very lenient with MS compared to the EU.  My main concern with Vista
is the privacy areas but it seems the buyers do not care and when that
happens there is not much one can do to rectify it.  My grand dad use
to tell me, "Once a idiot always a idiot."

I sure hope companies take a real close look before deciding on Vista
for the enterprise.


George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From neugens at limasoftware.net  Tue Jul  3 05:23:22 2007
From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:23:22 +0200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
In-Reply-To: <26d2590707022242y7d87c7c8vf23096d95b8ae87e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com> <87hcom94ye.fsf@spider.office.fsf.org>
	<26d2590707022038r10a29fa5uef6c66c149aea2cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tuvegwvctfb25q@johnny-machine>
	<26d2590707022242y7d87c7c8vf23096d95b8ae87e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1183454602.3462.13.camel@nirvana.limasoftware.net>

Il giorno lun, 02/07/2007 alle 22.42 -0700, member greenarrow1 ha
scritto:

> Maybe a little of both.  If I told MS that portions of their software
> violate privacy laws they will come back and ask me how I derived this
> info.

On a side note, we are currently violating the EULA ;), which forbids
users to reveal portion of itself...

Mario
-- 
Lima Software - http://www.limasoftware.net/
GNU Classpath Developer - http://www.classpath.org/
Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarioTorre
Jabber: neugens at jabber.org
pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF

Please, support open standards:
http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
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From neugens at limasoftware.net  Tue Jul  3 05:15:47 2007
From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:15:47 +0200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
In-Reply-To: <26d2590707022038r10a29fa5uef6c66c149aea2cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com> <87hcom94ye.fsf@spider.office.fsf.org>
	<26d2590707022038r10a29fa5uef6c66c149aea2cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1183454147.3462.11.camel@nirvana.limasoftware.net>

Il giorno lun, 02/07/2007 alle 20.38 -0700, member greenarrow1 ha
scritto:

> It seems people are afraid to speak out, even the security companies.
> The other area is to find this information one must violate Microsoft
> EULA's, licenses so this places the finder in a precarious position of
> being sued or taken to court by Microsoft and its mass of lawyers and
> money.  One has to thread lightly in this area as even the DOJ only
> rendered a slap on the wrist to MS for anti-trust compared to the
> European Union.  One does not know who MS has in their pockets in the
> US and even with proof it could pose a considerable threat upon the
> one who goes after Microsoft.  I was advised to go the individual
> state route and not federal just because of what I just wrote.

In Italy we are trying (and I fear it will take eons to really do..) to
organize free legal support for people who don't agree with EULA. The
EULA breaks some Italian laws too, but on very corner cases it seems so
it is never clear how to move.

Another thing we are trying to do is to go in mega stores and talk about
Linux. We want to get signed authorization to move on behalf of the
users to get the license cost back if one switches.

Sometimes, I feel like a lost battle, but in these years lots is going
better and better, and I interpret these last actions against the FLOSS
community (i.e. the patent deals) like the last strike of a dying enemy.

Mario
-- 
Lima Software - http://www.limasoftware.net/
GNU Classpath Developer - http://www.classpath.org/
Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarioTorre
Jabber: neugens at jabber.org
pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF

Please, support open standards:
http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
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From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Sat Jul  7 00:48:23 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:48:23 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
In-Reply-To: <1183454602.3462.13.camel@nirvana.limasoftware.net>
References: <46880C3C.5020606@yahoo.com> <87hcom94ye.fsf@spider.office.fsf.org>
	<26d2590707022038r10a29fa5uef6c66c149aea2cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tuvegwvctfb25q@johnny-machine>
	<26d2590707022242y7d87c7c8vf23096d95b8ae87e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1183454602.3462.13.camel@nirvana.limasoftware.net>
Message-ID: <26d2590707062148j439e7adbj2e3815af58bbd953@mail.gmail.com>

Only if we bench test but not talk about.  This is what the problem is
as you stated because if one tears apart anything you are violating
the EULA and license.  The EULA back talks itself in areas allowing
you in one statement then denying you in another.  One area of concern
is WGA as it requests to change and modify the physical memory thus
creating a back door avenue for root kits.  MS told me they fixed this
months ago but I found it back again with the last WGA update so whom
are they trying to fool.

Besides Google has now been in contact with me about the info I have.
As much as I do not really like Google privacy and rules at least this
is a avenue for me for financial and lawyer support against Vista and
MS.  If Vista and MS do not violate anti-trust in certain software and
software areas then we all might as well forget everything because
they have the higher ups in their pockets.  Plus regardless of what
the EULA and license states and the user agrees does not mean the EULA
does not violate federal or state privacy laws.  The EULA leaves that
open as to what MS can do with private info in the future and needs
court clarification.  I want to know what law gives them the right to
collect this data in the first place.  Preventing piracy is not a
legal reason nor do I feel it would stand up in court.   MS is a big
backer of DRM and one of the reasons is their wanting control of what
you do, the internet, and everything that you have on your computer.
They want the user to be totally dependent on Microsoft.

George

On 7/3/07, Mario Torre <neugens at limasoftware.net> wrote:
> Il giorno lun, 02/07/2007 alle 22.42 -0700, member greenarrow1 ha
> scritto:
>
> > Maybe a little of both.  If I told MS that portions of their software
> > violate privacy laws they will come back and ask me how I derived this
> > info.
>
> On a side note, we are currently violating the EULA ;), which forbids
> users to reveal portion of itself...
>
> Mario
> --
> Lima Software - http://www.limasoftware.net/
> GNU Classpath Developer - http://www.classpath.org/
> Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarioTorre
> Jabber: neugens at jabber.org
> pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
> Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF
>
> Please, support open standards:
> http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/
> http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>
>


-- 
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From bradleyp at juno.com  Sat Jul  7 01:42:14 2007
From: bradleyp at juno.com (bradleyp@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 22:42:14 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
Message-ID: <20070706.224215.3864.0.bradleyp@juno.com>

If one were merely capturing the packets that Vista was sending to M$,
surely that wouldn't qualify as reverse engineering or circumventing DRM.
 Comments?

Brad

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:48:23 -0700 "member greenarrow1"
<greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> writes:
> Only if we bench test but not talk about.  This is what the problem 
> is
> as you stated because if one tears apart anything you are violating
> the EULA and license.  The EULA back talks itself in areas allowing
> you in one statement then denying you in another.  One area of 
> concern
> is WGA as it requests to change and modify the physical memory thus
> creating a back door avenue for root kits.  MS told me they fixed 
> this
> months ago but I found it back again with the last WGA update so 
> whom
> are they trying to fool.
> 
> Besides Google has now been in contact with me about the info I 
> have.
> As much as I do not really like Google privacy and rules at least 
> this
> is a avenue for me for financial and lawyer support against Vista 
> and
> MS.  If Vista and MS do not violate anti-trust in certain software 
> and
> software areas then we all might as well forget everything because
> they have the higher ups in their pockets.  Plus regardless of what
> the EULA and license states and the user agrees does not mean the 
> EULA
> does not violate federal or state privacy laws.  The EULA leaves 
> that
> open as to what MS can do with private info in the future and needs
> court clarification.  I want to know what law gives them the right 
> to
> collect this data in the first place.  Preventing piracy is not a
> legal reason nor do I feel it would stand up in court.   MS is a 
> big
> backer of DRM and one of the reasons is their wanting control of 
> what
> you do, the internet, and everything that you have on your 
> computer.
> They want the user to be totally dependent on Microsoft.
> 
> George
> 
> On 7/3/07, Mario Torre <neugens at limasoftware.net> wrote:
> > Il giorno lun, 02/07/2007 alle 22.42 -0700, member greenarrow1 ha
> > scritto:
> >
> > > Maybe a little of both.  If I told MS that portions of their 
> software
> > > violate privacy laws they will come back and ask me how I derived 
> this
> > > info.
> >
> > On a side note, we are currently violating the EULA ;), which 
> forbids
> > users to reveal portion of itself...
> >
> > Mario
> > --
> > Lima Software - http://www.limasoftware.net/
> > GNU Classpath Developer - http://www.classpath.org/
> > Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarioTorre
> > Jabber: neugens at jabber.org
> > pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
> > Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF
> >
> > Please, support open standards:
> > http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/
> > http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> 
> 
 


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Sat Jul  7 22:50:36 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 22:50:36 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: LG Customer Enquiry-[Ringo Kamens]
In-Reply-To: <f5nlb2$n0a$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <bdf.14fa05af.339cf55e@aol.com>	<26d2590706110017q3b69665bu31cd15fe3c8ccba2@mail.gmail.com>	<466CFA45.7060303@gatech.edu>	<26d2590706111939q770ba3c8j6b0aadb690334401@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5nlb2$n0a$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <469050FC.3080703@gatech.edu>

nixed wrote:
> The closest thing I can think of is finding some BSD code in Microsoft's 
> DOS FTP program.

They admit to having BSD code (they have to as a condition of the
license).  That doesn't mean the BSD code infringes any patents or
copyrights.  /That/ code probably doesn't infringe copyright (because of
the BSD license) or patents (because it's so old).

Matt Flaschen


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Sat Jul  7 22:53:49 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 22:53:49 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>	<f5nii2$h20$1@sea.gmane.org>	<37323.138.162.128.53.1182775322.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<46808041.6040000@gatech.edu>	<19680.138.162.128.55.1182874339.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<20070626162828.GA31070@grahamcox.co.uk>
	<4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>

member greenarrow1 wrote:
> Can you honestly say the Linux Documentation Project is written in the
> way a Windows user just coming to Linux would understand?

It isn't always written clearly.  The solution is to improve it.

>  And, when searching for this how does the new Linux wannabe search for it?  Its
> not even on the first couple of pages if you search Linux newbie.

Again, GNU/Linux newbies do not need or want distro-independent
information.  Once (if) they are no longer a newbie they will more
easily understand LDP and similar information.

Matthew FLaschen


From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 23:05:42 2007
From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:05:42 +0600
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5nii2$h20$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<37323.138.162.128.53.1182775322.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46808041.6040000@gatech.edu>
	<19680.138.162.128.55.1182874339.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<20070626162828.GA31070@grahamcox.co.uk> <4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>

Best way to  come out of the newbie standard is to mess around with your
system :)

On 7/8/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
>
> member greenarrow1 wrote:
> > Can you honestly say the Linux Documentation Project is written in the
> > way a Windows user just coming to Linux would understand?
>
> It isn't always written clearly.  The solution is to improve it.
>
> >  And, when searching for this how does the new Linux wannabe search for
> it?  Its
> > not even on the first couple of pages if you search Linux newbie.
>
> Again, GNU/Linux newbies do not need or want distro-independent
> information.  Once (if) they are no longer a newbie they will more
> easily understand LDP and similar information.
>
> Matthew FLaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>



-- 
\ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
.\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
  |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
  http://tuxv.blogspot.com
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Don't send me word attachments.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Sat Jul  7 23:11:33 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:11:33 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>	<f5nii2$h20$1@sea.gmane.org>	<37323.138.162.128.53.1182775322.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<46808041.6040000@gatech.edu>	<19680.138.162.128.55.1182874339.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<20070626162828.GA31070@grahamcox.co.uk>
	<4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469055E5.3010301@gatech.edu>

Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote:
> Best way to  come out of the newbie standard is to mess around with your
> system :)

I agree.  But when people have /just/ switched to GNU/Linux they won't
be ready to "mess around" like that.  They just want simple tutorials,
screencasts, and the like.  All of these are distro-specific.

Matt Flaschen


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Sun Jul  8 21:01:47 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 21:01:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5nii2$h20$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<37323.138.162.128.53.1182775322.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46808041.6040000@gatech.edu>
	<19680.138.162.128.55.1182874339.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<20070626162828.GA31070@grahamcox.co.uk> <4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Agreed, but not a workable option in the case of someone new switching to
GNU/Linux. Not enough people are interested in learning on their own by
messing around with it. You have to give them a resource to use for their
information. Something simple and straight forward. Telling them to mess
around with it will make them upset and make them give up.

Jacob

> Best way to  come out of the newbie standard is to mess around with your
> system :)
>
> On 7/8/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
>>
>> member greenarrow1 wrote:
>> > Can you honestly say the Linux Documentation Project is written in the
>> > way a Windows user just coming to Linux would understand?
>>
>> It isn't always written clearly.  The solution is to improve it.
>>
>> >  And, when searching for this how does the new Linux wannabe search
>> for
>> it?  Its
>> > not even on the first couple of pages if you search Linux newbie.
>>
>> Again, GNU/Linux newbies do not need or want distro-independent
>> information.  Once (if) they are no longer a newbie they will more
>> easily understand LDP and similar information.
>>
>> Matthew FLaschen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
>
> --
> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> Don't send me word attachments.
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Sun Jul  8 22:36:35 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:36:35 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>	<f5nii2$h20$1@sea.gmane.org>	<37323.138.162.128.53.1182775322.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<46808041.6040000@gatech.edu>	<19680.138.162.128.55.1182874339.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<20070626162828.GA31070@grahamcox.co.uk>
	<4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>

Jacob Maynard wrote:
> Agreed, but not a workable option in the case of someone new switching to
> GNU/Linux. Not enough people are interested in learning on their own by
> messing around with it. You have to give them a resource to use for their
> information. Something simple and straight forward.

I agree.  The most straight-forward way to start someone out is to point
them to a very detailed tutorial for installing a particular distro.

Matt Flaschen


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Sun Jul  8 23:19:33 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:19:33 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
In-Reply-To: <20070706.224215.3864.0.bradleyp@juno.com>
References: <20070706.224215.3864.0.bradleyp@juno.com>
Message-ID: <26d2590707082019w376097c0m73e324a38a16ded1@mail.gmail.com>

Brad,

Its not the packets I am worrying about, it is divulging what is in
the packets.  I have some legal people at Google looking at some of
the areas I found since they seem to be pursuing anti-trust against
MS.  I figure Google the lessor of 2 evils and they are looking at
ways to get at Microsoft so why not add some ammo for Google.

George

On 7/6/07, bradleyp at juno.com <bradleyp at juno.com> wrote:
> If one were merely capturing the packets that Vista was sending to M$,
> surely that wouldn't qualify as reverse engineering or circumventing DRM.
>  Comments?
>
> Brad
>
>
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:48:23 -0700 "member greenarrow1"
> <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> writes:
> > Only if we bench test but not talk about.  This is what the problem
> > is
> > as you stated because if one tears apart anything you are violating
> > the EULA and license.  The EULA back talks itself in areas allowing
> > you in one statement then denying you in another.  One area of
> > concern
> > is WGA as it requests to change and modify the physical memory thus
> > creating a back door avenue for root kits.  MS told me they fixed
> > this
> > months ago but I found it back again with the last WGA update so
> > whom
> > are they trying to fool.
> >
> > Besides Google has now been in contact with me about the info I
> > have.
> > As much as I do not really like Google privacy and rules at least
> > this
> > is a avenue for me for financial and lawyer support against Vista
> > and
> > MS.  If Vista and MS do not violate anti-trust in certain software
> > and
> > software areas then we all might as well forget everything because
> > they have the higher ups in their pockets.  Plus regardless of what
> > the EULA and license states and the user agrees does not mean the
> > EULA
> > does not violate federal or state privacy laws.  The EULA leaves
> > that
> > open as to what MS can do with private info in the future and needs
> > court clarification.  I want to know what law gives them the right
> > to
> > collect this data in the first place.  Preventing piracy is not a
> > legal reason nor do I feel it would stand up in court.   MS is a
> > big
> > backer of DRM and one of the reasons is their wanting control of
> > what
> > you do, the internet, and everything that you have on your
> > computer.
> > They want the user to be totally dependent on Microsoft.
> >
> > George
> >
> > On 7/3/07, Mario Torre <neugens at limasoftware.net> wrote:
> > > Il giorno lun, 02/07/2007 alle 22.42 -0700, member greenarrow1 ha
> > > scritto:
> > >
> > > > Maybe a little of both.  If I told MS that portions of their
> > software
> > > > violate privacy laws they will come back and ask me how I derived
> > this
> > > > info.
> > >
> > > On a side note, we are currently violating the EULA ;), which
> > forbids
> > > users to reveal portion of itself...
> > >
> > > Mario
> > > --
> > > Lima Software - http://www.limasoftware.net/
> > > GNU Classpath Developer - http://www.classpath.org/
> > > Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarioTorre
> > > Jabber: neugens at jabber.org
> > > pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
> > > Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF
> > >
> > > Please, support open standards:
> > > http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/
> > > http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > greenarrow1
> > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> > GoBoLinux
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


-- 
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From bradleyp at juno.com  Mon Jul  9 00:03:08 2007
From: bradleyp at juno.com (bradleyp@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 21:03:08 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Newspick: Vista "phones home"
Message-ID: <20070708.210308.1932.0.bradleyp@juno.com>

I understand that you are concerned with what's in the packets.  My point
was only that you couldn't be taken to court for examining the packets
without actually reverse engineering the OS.

Good luck with Google.

Brad

On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:19:33 -0700 "member greenarrow1"
<greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> writes:
> Brad,
> 
> Its not the packets I am worrying about, it is divulging what is in
> the packets.  I have some legal people at Google looking at some of
> the areas I found since they seem to be pursuing anti-trust against
> MS.  I figure Google the lessor of 2 evils and they are looking at
> ways to get at Microsoft so why not add some ammo for Google.
> 
> George
> 
> On 7/6/07, bradleyp at juno.com <bradleyp at juno.com> wrote:
> > If one were merely capturing the packets that Vista was sending to 
> M$,
> > surely that wouldn't qualify as reverse engineering or 
> circumventing DRM.
> >  Comments?
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:48:23 -0700 "member greenarrow1"
> > <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> writes:
> > > Only if we bench test but not talk about.  This is what the 
> problem
> > > is
> > > as you stated because if one tears apart anything you are 
> violating
> > > the EULA and license.  The EULA back talks itself in areas 
> allowing
> > > you in one statement then denying you in another.  One area of
> > > concern
> > > is WGA as it requests to change and modify the physical memory 
> thus
> > > creating a back door avenue for root kits.  MS told me they 
> fixed
> > > this
> > > months ago but I found it back again with the last WGA update 
> so
> > > whom
> > > are they trying to fool.
> > >
> > > Besides Google has now been in contact with me about the info I
> > > have.
> > > As much as I do not really like Google privacy and rules at 
> least
> > > this
> > > is a avenue for me for financial and lawyer support against 
> Vista
> > > and
> > > MS.  If Vista and MS do not violate anti-trust in certain 
> software
> > > and
> > > software areas then we all might as well forget everything 
> because
> > > they have the higher ups in their pockets.  Plus regardless of 
> what
> > > the EULA and license states and the user agrees does not mean 
> the
>  > EULA
> > > does not violate federal or state privacy laws.  The EULA 
> leaves
> > > that
> > > open as to what MS can do with private info in the future and 
> needs
> > > court clarification.  I want to know what law gives them the 
> right
> > > to
> > > collect this data in the first place.  Preventing piracy is not 
> a
> > > legal reason nor do I feel it would stand up in court.   MS is 
> a
> > > big
> > > backer of DRM and one of the reasons is their wanting control 
> of
> > > what
> > > you do, the internet, and everything that you have on your
> > > computer.
> > > They want the user to be totally dependent on Microsoft.
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > > On 7/3/07, Mario Torre <neugens at limasoftware.net> wrote:
> > > > Il giorno lun, 02/07/2007 alle 22.42 -0700, member greenarrow1 
> ha
> > > > scritto:
> > > >
> > > > > Maybe a little of both.  If I told MS that portions of 
> their
> > > software
> > > > > violate privacy laws they will come back and ask me how I 
> derived
> > > this
> > > > > info.
> > > >
> > > > On a side note, we are currently violating the EULA ;), which
> > > forbids
> > > > users to reveal portion of itself...
> > > >
> > > > Mario
> > > > --
> > > > Lima Software - http://www.limasoftware.net/
> > > > GNU Classpath Developer - http://www.classpath.org/
> > > > Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarioTorre
> > > > Jabber: neugens at jabber.org
> > > > pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
> > > > Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 
> 40CF
> > > >
> > > > Please, support open standards:
> > > > http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/
> > > > http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Advocate mailing list
> > > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > greenarrow1
> > > InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> > > SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> > > GoBoLinux
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Advocate mailing list
> > > Advocate at badvista.org
> > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> 
> 
 


From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us  Mon Jul  9 00:35:33 2007
From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 21:35:33 -0700
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<46808041.6040000@gatech.edu>
	<19680.138.162.128.55.1182874339.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<20070626162828.GA31070@grahamcox.co.uk> <4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
> Jacob Maynard wrote:
> > Agreed, but not a workable option in the case of someone new switching to
> > GNU/Linux. Not enough people are interested in learning on their own by
> > messing around with it. You have to give them a resource to use for their
> > information. Something simple and straight forward.
>
> I agree.  The most straight-forward way to start someone out is to point
> them to a very detailed tutorial for installing a particular distro.
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

And this is the area we are lacking in.  No one wants to open a
tutorial and read something that looks like it came from a engineering
programmer.  In teaching individuals that want to try or switch to
Linux I found that using "Show Me's" with written instructions work a
lot better than just words.  Words are dull to a newbie but if they
see a picture or illustration that tends to catch their eye.

I could write a general Linux article, what to look for in Distro's,
how to search, the difference between a Window OS and a Linux distro,
etc but to get it to new users would be the problem.  I would need
screen shots of non-proprietary distros and actually others that do
not include proprietary in their base install.  I can say this even if
they use an all OpenSource distro if they want to play certain songs
or DVD's they are still going to find a way to install proprietary
code to use what they want.  This is one area people are not going to
give up and until we create programs that can do this within Linux we
are not going to be able to stop it.

This is a area I have been talking to Google about and seeing if this
is a anti-trust violation.  It seems to me it is because Microsoft is
trying to lock all this in their windows base.  Being that codecs and
Dvd's are universal locking them into one operating system would be
monopolizing them.  So far looks good as they are gong to further
study this area.  I went the Google route because they are already
filing anti-trust violations against MS and even though it is like
using the lessor of 2 evils at least it is against MS.


George
greenarrow1
InNetInvestigations-Forensic
SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
GoBoLinux


From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 06:35:13 2007
From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:05:13 +0530
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<19680.138.162.128.55.1182874339.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<20070626162828.GA31070@grahamcox.co.uk> <4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>

If we had that IRC channel we discussed earlier in this mailing list, it
should have helped a lot. Some one would be able to find help directly from
another user. What do you guys think?

cheers

On 7/9/07, member greenarrow1 <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> wrote:
>
> On 7/8/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
> > Jacob Maynard wrote:
> > > Agreed, but not a workable option in the case of someone new switching
> to
> > > GNU/Linux. Not enough people are interested in learning on their own
> by
> > > messing around with it. You have to give them a resource to use for
> their
> > > information. Something simple and straight forward.
> >
> > I agree.  The most straight-forward way to start someone out is to point
> > them to a very detailed tutorial for installing a particular distro.
> >
> > Matt Flaschen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
> And this is the area we are lacking in.  No one wants to open a
> tutorial and read something that looks like it came from a engineering
> programmer.  In teaching individuals that want to try or switch to
> Linux I found that using "Show Me's" with written instructions work a
> lot better than just words.  Words are dull to a newbie but if they
> see a picture or illustration that tends to catch their eye.
>
> I could write a general Linux article, what to look for in Distro's,
> how to search, the difference between a Window OS and a Linux distro,
> etc but to get it to new users would be the problem.  I would need
> screen shots of non-proprietary distros and actually others that do
> not include proprietary in their base install.  I can say this even if
> they use an all OpenSource distro if they want to play certain songs
> or DVD's they are still going to find a way to install proprietary
> code to use what they want.  This is one area people are not going to
> give up and until we create programs that can do this within Linux we
> are not going to be able to stop it.
>
> This is a area I have been talking to Google about and seeing if this
> is a anti-trust violation.  It seems to me it is because Microsoft is
> trying to lock all this in their windows base.  Being that codecs and
> Dvd's are universal locking them into one operating system would be
> monopolizing them.  So far looks good as they are gong to further
> study this area.  I went the Google route because they are already
> filing anti-trust violations against MS and even though it is like
> using the lessor of 2 evils at least it is against MS.
>
>
> George
> greenarrow1
> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
> GoBoLinux
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>



-- 
\ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
.\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
  |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
  http://tuxv.blogspot.com
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Don't send me word attachments.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Mon Jul  9 08:20:11 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 08:20:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<19680.138.162.128.55.1182874339.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<20070626162828.GA31070@grahamcox.co.uk> <4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I think that should be used in conjunction with it, but not a separate
entity. Take away the blogging and forums that other sites utilize and put
up flashy, good looking tutorials and the IRC channel in the page. That
would be great.

Jacob

> If we had that IRC channel we discussed earlier in this mailing list, it
> should have helped a lot. Some one would be able to find help directly
> from
> another user. What do you guys think?
>
> cheers
>
> On 7/9/07, member greenarrow1 <greenarrow1 at opensuse.us> wrote:
>>
>> On 7/8/07, Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu> wrote:
>> > Jacob Maynard wrote:
>> > > Agreed, but not a workable option in the case of someone new
>> switching
>> to
>> > > GNU/Linux. Not enough people are interested in learning on their own
>> by
>> > > messing around with it. You have to give them a resource to use for
>> their
>> > > information. Something simple and straight forward.
>> >
>> > I agree.  The most straight-forward way to start someone out is to
>> point
>> > them to a very detailed tutorial for installing a particular distro.
>> >
>> > Matt Flaschen
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>> And this is the area we are lacking in.  No one wants to open a
>> tutorial and read something that looks like it came from a engineering
>> programmer.  In teaching individuals that want to try or switch to
>> Linux I found that using "Show Me's" with written instructions work a
>> lot better than just words.  Words are dull to a newbie but if they
>> see a picture or illustration that tends to catch their eye.
>>
>> I could write a general Linux article, what to look for in Distro's,
>> how to search, the difference between a Window OS and a Linux distro,
>> etc but to get it to new users would be the problem.  I would need
>> screen shots of non-proprietary distros and actually others that do
>> not include proprietary in their base install.  I can say this even if
>> they use an all OpenSource distro if they want to play certain songs
>> or DVD's they are still going to find a way to install proprietary
>> code to use what they want.  This is one area people are not going to
>> give up and until we create programs that can do this within Linux we
>> are not going to be able to stop it.
>>
>> This is a area I have been talking to Google about and seeing if this
>> is a anti-trust violation.  It seems to me it is because Microsoft is
>> trying to lock all this in their windows base.  Being that codecs and
>> Dvd's are universal locking them into one operating system would be
>> monopolizing them.  So far looks good as they are gong to further
>> study this area.  I went the Google route because they are already
>> filing anti-trust violations against MS and even though it is like
>> using the lessor of 2 evils at least it is against MS.
>>
>>
>> George
>> greenarrow1
>> InNetInvestigations-Forensic
>> SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache
>> GoBoLinux
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>
>
>
> --
> \ \ / /__ _  __ (_) | |_ |  |_
> .\ V// _` |(_-<  |  ||  _| |  '  \
>   |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_|
>   http://tuxv.blogspot.com
> 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
> Don't send me word attachments.
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From iskren.chernev at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 11:00:42 2007
From: iskren.chernev at gmail.com (Iskren Chernev)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:00:42 +0300
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>

bool CONDITION (long long x) {
	long long int s = 0;
	for (int i = 0; i < n - 1; i++)
		s = A[i].y - x + s - (A[i + 1].x - A[i].x);

	if ((A[n - 1].y - x + s) >= 0)
		return 1;
	return 0;
}

tova 4udo e gre6no - ako a[i].y - x + s e po golqmo ot 0, no po malko
ot A[i+1].x - A[i].x - t.e pri cqlata operaciq s stava otricatelno ti
vse edno si imal dostatu4no riba no pak iska6 o6te ot sledva6tiq i go
precakva6. Li4no az mislq 4e ne moje da re6i6 zada4ata samo s formula
- trqbva i pone nqkakyv if (e moje i da moje bez no tova sys sigurnost
e gre6no).

P.S. Identaciqta ti e pod vsqkakva kritika, funkciqta nqma nujda da se
kazva sys zvy4noto CONDITION - to po skoro na makrso mqzi - ako ima6 3
bsrch-ta v edna zada4a kak 6te gi kry6tava6 :). Za6to pi6e6 using
namespace std sled kato nqma6 ni6to C++ v koda?

P.S.2 zada4ata ne vyrvi na nito edin test - daje se symnqvam za
vhodniq no se nadqvam pone tam da si q proveril. Moje da nameri6
uslovieto i testovete tuk:
http://iskren.info/info-arh/HSIN/2005/National/day2/Juniors/
/////////////////////////////////
na circle ti vyrvqt do 6ti test, drugite davat segmentation fault (az
sum na linux na win moje i da vyrvi). Zna4i qvno ne6to ograni4eniqta
si oburkal (neznam i ne mi e rabota da ti opravqm re6enieto).

Fix-vai i pra6tai :)

Iskren


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Fri Jul 13 14:06:31 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:06:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45822.138.162.128.53.1184349991.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

I hate to seem ignorant, but what language is this?

Jacob

> bool CONDITION (long long x) {
> 	long long int s = 0;
> 	for (int i = 0; i < n - 1; i++)
> 		s = A[i].y - x + s - (A[i + 1].x - A[i].x);
>
> 	if ((A[n - 1].y - x + s) >= 0)
> 		return 1;
> 	return 0;
> }
>
> tova 4udo e gre6no - ako a[i].y - x + s e po golqmo ot 0, no po malko
> ot A[i+1].x - A[i].x - t.e pri cqlata operaciq s stava otricatelno ti
> vse edno si imal dostatu4no riba no pak iska6 o6te ot sledva6tiq i go
> precakva6. Li4no az mislq 4e ne moje da re6i6 zada4ata samo s formula
> - trqbva i pone nqkakyv if (e moje i da moje bez no tova sys sigurnost
> e gre6no).
>
> P.S. Identaciqta ti e pod vsqkakva kritika, funkciqta nqma nujda da se
> kazva sys zvy4noto CONDITION - to po skoro na makrso mqzi - ako ima6 3
> bsrch-ta v edna zada4a kak 6te gi kry6tava6 :). Za6to pi6e6 using
> namespace std sled kato nqma6 ni6to C++ v koda?
>
> P.S.2 zada4ata ne vyrvi na nito edin test - daje se symnqvam za
> vhodniq no se nadqvam pone tam da si q proveril. Moje da nameri6
> uslovieto i testovete tuk:
> http://iskren.info/info-arh/HSIN/2005/National/day2/Juniors/
> /////////////////////////////////
> na circle ti vyrvqt do 6ti test, drugite davat segmentation fault (az
> sum na linux na win moje i da vyrvi). Zna4i qvno ne6to ograni4eniqta
> si oburkal (neznam i ne mi e rabota da ti opravqm re6enieto).
>
> Fix-vai i pra6tai :)
>
> Iskren
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From lukasz at eot.pl  Fri Jul 13 14:08:19 2007
From: lukasz at eot.pl (=?iso-8859-2?Q?=A3ukasz_Sochanowski?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:08:19 +0200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <45822.138.162.128.53.1184349991.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>	<4681B6AA.4060600@gatech.edu>	<26d2590706282218wb4c495lfaf12eebf4cab2b2@mail.gmail.com>	<469051BD.6010502@gatech.edu>	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>	<19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>	<587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>
	<45822.138.162.128.53.1184349991.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7c578$cc1a46d0$644ed470$@pl>

I have the same question 

-----Original Message-----
From: advocate-bounces at badvista.org [mailto:advocate-bounces at badvista.org]
On Behalf Of Jacob Maynard
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:07 PM
To: BadVista.org Advocacy
Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies

I hate to seem ignorant, but what language is this?

Jacob

> bool CONDITION (long long x) {
> 	long long int s = 0;
> 	for (int i = 0; i < n - 1; i++)
> 		s = A[i].y - x + s - (A[i + 1].x - A[i].x);
>
> 	if ((A[n - 1].y - x + s) >= 0)
> 		return 1;
> 	return 0;
> }
>
> tova 4udo e gre6no - ako a[i].y - x + s e po golqmo ot 0, no po malko
> ot A[i+1].x - A[i].x - t.e pri cqlata operaciq s stava otricatelno ti
> vse edno si imal dostatu4no riba no pak iska6 o6te ot sledva6tiq i go
> precakva6. Li4no az mislq 4e ne moje da re6i6 zada4ata samo s formula
> - trqbva i pone nqkakyv if (e moje i da moje bez no tova sys sigurnost
> e gre6no).
>
> P.S. Identaciqta ti e pod vsqkakva kritika, funkciqta nqma nujda da se
> kazva sys zvy4noto CONDITION - to po skoro na makrso mqzi - ako ima6 3
> bsrch-ta v edna zada4a kak 6te gi kry6tava6 :). Za6to pi6e6 using
> namespace std sled kato nqma6 ni6to C++ v koda?
>
> P.S.2 zada4ata ne vyrvi na nito edin test - daje se symnqvam za
> vhodniq no se nadqvam pone tam da si q proveril. Moje da nameri6
> uslovieto i testovete tuk:
> http://iskren.info/info-arh/HSIN/2005/National/day2/Juniors/
> /////////////////////////////////
> na circle ti vyrvqt do 6ti test, drugite davat segmentation fault (az
> sum na linux na win moje i da vyrvi). Zna4i qvno ne6to ograni4eniqta
> si oburkal (neznam i ne mi e rabota da ti opravqm re6enieto).
>
> Fix-vai i pra6tai :)
>
> Iskren
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>



_______________________________________________
Advocate mailing list
Advocate at badvista.org
http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate



From iskren.chernev at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 14:16:41 2007
From: iskren.chernev at gmail.com (Iskren Chernev)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 21:16:41 +0300
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <000001c7c578$cc1a46d0$644ed470$@pl>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>
	<45822.138.162.128.53.1184349991.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<000001c7c578$cc1a46d0$644ed470$@pl>
Message-ID: <587fc9ca0707131116w7f6810b2u5da4e12e9c32932d@mail.gmail.com>

I'm _terribly_ sorry. Really! It seams like I've send a mail to the
wrong list :(. Gmail had some problems an hour ago... but the problem
may be in me. I'm very very sorry again! I'll try to never make the
same mistake again.

Sorry to all of you again!

Iskren

On 7/13/07, ?ukasz Sochanowski <lukasz at eot.pl> wrote:
> I have the same question
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advocate-bounces at badvista.org [mailto:advocate-bounces at badvista.org]
> On Behalf Of Jacob Maynard
> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:07 PM
> To: BadVista.org Advocacy
> Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
>
> I hate to seem ignorant, but what language is this?
>
> Jacob
>
> > bool CONDITION (long long x) {
> >       long long int s = 0;
> >       for (int i = 0; i < n - 1; i++)
> >               s = A[i].y - x + s - (A[i + 1].x - A[i].x);
> >
> >       if ((A[n - 1].y - x + s) >= 0)
> >               return 1;
> >       return 0;
> > }
> >
> > tova 4udo e gre6no - ako a[i].y - x + s e po golqmo ot 0, no po malko
> > ot A[i+1].x - A[i].x - t.e pri cqlata operaciq s stava otricatelno ti
> > vse edno si imal dostatu4no riba no pak iska6 o6te ot sledva6tiq i go
> > precakva6. Li4no az mislq 4e ne moje da re6i6 zada4ata samo s formula
> > - trqbva i pone nqkakyv if (e moje i da moje bez no tova sys sigurnost
> > e gre6no).
> >
> > P.S. Identaciqta ti e pod vsqkakva kritika, funkciqta nqma nujda da se
> > kazva sys zvy4noto CONDITION - to po skoro na makrso mqzi - ako ima6 3
> > bsrch-ta v edna zada4a kak 6te gi kry6tava6 :). Za6to pi6e6 using
> > namespace std sled kato nqma6 ni6to C++ v koda?
> >
> > P.S.2 zada4ata ne vyrvi na nito edin test - daje se symnqvam za
> > vhodniq no se nadqvam pone tam da si q proveril. Moje da nameri6
> > uslovieto i testovete tuk:
> > http://iskren.info/info-arh/HSIN/2005/National/day2/Juniors/
> > /////////////////////////////////
> > na circle ti vyrvqt do 6ti test, drugite davat segmentation fault (az
> > sum na linux na win moje i da vyrvi). Zna4i qvno ne6to ograni4eniqta
> > si oburkal (neznam i ne mi e rabota da ti opravqm re6enieto).
> >
> > Fix-vai i pra6tai :)
> >
> > Iskren
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>

From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Fri Jul 13 14:23:01 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:23:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <587fc9ca0707131116w7f6810b2u5da4e12e9c32932d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707072005t343f623chec72a937499ce6a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<55020.192.168.1.1.1183942907.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>
	<45822.138.162.128.53.1184349991.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<000001c7c578$cc1a46d0$644ed470$@pl>
	<587fc9ca0707131116w7f6810b2u5da4e12e9c32932d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52995.138.162.128.53.1184350981.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

It doesn't upset me. I just didn't want you to go unanswered if it was an
important issue.

Jacob

> I'm _terribly_ sorry. Really! It seams like I've send a mail to the
> wrong list :(. Gmail had some problems an hour ago... but the problem
> may be in me. I'm very very sorry again! I'll try to never make the
> same mistake again.
>
> Sorry to all of you again!
>
> Iskren
>
> On 7/13/07, ?ukasz Sochanowski <lukasz at eot.pl> wrote:
>> I have the same question
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: advocate-bounces at badvista.org
>> [mailto:advocate-bounces at badvista.org]
>> On Behalf Of Jacob Maynard
>> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:07 PM
>> To: BadVista.org Advocacy
>> Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
>>
>> I hate to seem ignorant, but what language is this?
>>
>> Jacob
>>
>> > bool CONDITION (long long x) {
>> >       long long int s = 0;
>> >       for (int i = 0; i < n - 1; i++)
>> >               s = A[i].y - x + s - (A[i + 1].x - A[i].x);
>> >
>> >       if ((A[n - 1].y - x + s) >= 0)
>> >               return 1;
>> >       return 0;
>> > }
>> >
>> > tova 4udo e gre6no - ako a[i].y - x + s e po golqmo ot 0, no po malko
>> > ot A[i+1].x - A[i].x - t.e pri cqlata operaciq s stava otricatelno ti
>> > vse edno si imal dostatu4no riba no pak iska6 o6te ot sledva6tiq i go
>> > precakva6. Li4no az mislq 4e ne moje da re6i6 zada4ata samo s formula
>> > - trqbva i pone nqkakyv if (e moje i da moje bez no tova sys sigurnost
>> > e gre6no).
>> >
>> > P.S. Identaciqta ti e pod vsqkakva kritika, funkciqta nqma nujda da se
>> > kazva sys zvy4noto CONDITION - to po skoro na makrso mqzi - ako ima6 3
>> > bsrch-ta v edna zada4a kak 6te gi kry6tava6 :). Za6to pi6e6 using
>> > namespace std sled kato nqma6 ni6to C++ v koda?
>> >
>> > P.S.2 zada4ata ne vyrvi na nito edin test - daje se symnqvam za
>> > vhodniq no se nadqvam pone tam da si q proveril. Moje da nameri6
>> > uslovieto i testovete tuk:
>> > http://iskren.info/info-arh/HSIN/2005/National/day2/Juniors/
>> > /////////////////////////////////
>> > na circle ti vyrvqt do 6ti test, drugite davat segmentation fault (az
>> > sum na linux na win moje i da vyrvi). Zna4i qvno ne6to ograni4eniqta
>> > si oburkal (neznam i ne mi e rabota da ti opravqm re6enieto).
>> >
>> > Fix-vai i pra6tai :)
>> >
>> > Iskren
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Advocate mailing list
>> > Advocate at badvista.org
>> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advocate mailing list
>> Advocate at badvista.org
>> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From iskren.chernev at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 14:43:12 2007
From: iskren.chernev at gmail.com (Iskren Chernev)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 21:43:12 +0300
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <52995.138.162.128.53.1184350981.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>
	<45822.138.162.128.53.1184349991.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<000001c7c578$cc1a46d0$644ed470$@pl>
	<587fc9ca0707131116w7f6810b2u5da4e12e9c32932d@mail.gmail.com>
	<52995.138.162.128.53.1184350981.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <587fc9ca0707131143w5b93e620r7ca9e0fc0a9f0216@mail.gmail.com>

Back to the topic I think that an IRC channel is the _most_
appropriate thing for newbies, because 'live' help is better than any
article or blog or tutorial, because it is possible to actually ask
questions rather than try to figure out what the person writhing the
article/tutorial was trying to say :). I thing that there should be
one major IRC channel for all distributions but it is important to
make it well known for the public (like badvista.org is on the first
page of googling "vista").

Newbies will feel comfortable to know that whatever problem they have
someone could help them solve it, rather than trying to search with
google and find misleading / old / wrong information.

It will be quite annoying to answer the same dumb questions over and
over again but I thing that after time we can make a FAQ based on the
asked questions and keep this FAQ as brief as possible, coz no newbie
will search in a FAQ longer than one screen :)

Iskren


From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Fri Jul 13 14:56:50 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:56:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <587fc9ca0707131143w5b93e620r7ca9e0fc0a9f0216@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<46919F33.9090304@gatech.edu>
	<26d2590707082135o4dc9eb85xd0875b0de11cc4fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>
	<45822.138.162.128.53.1184349991.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<000001c7c578$cc1a46d0$644ed470$@pl>
	<587fc9ca0707131116w7f6810b2u5da4e12e9c32932d@mail.gmail.com>
	<52995.138.162.128.53.1184350981.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<587fc9ca0707131143w5b93e620r7ca9e0fc0a9f0216@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13902.138.162.128.53.1184353010.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Agreed. Since I'm not yet a developer, and I don't use IRC (attach a yet
to that), how do we get it to look aesthetically pleasing, and where can
we implement it? Hosting is the biggest thing I wonder about.

Jacob


> Back to the topic I think that an IRC channel is the _most_
> appropriate thing for newbies, because 'live' help is better than any
> article or blog or tutorial, because it is possible to actually ask
> questions rather than try to figure out what the person writhing the
> article/tutorial was trying to say :). I thing that there should be
> one major IRC channel for all distributions but it is important to
> make it well known for the public (like badvista.org is on the first
> page of googling "vista").
>
> Newbies will feel comfortable to know that whatever problem they have
> someone could help them solve it, rather than trying to search with
> google and find misleading / old / wrong information.
>
> It will be quite annoying to answer the same dumb questions over and
> over again but I thing that after time we can make a FAQ based on the
> asked questions and keep this FAQ as brief as possible, coz no newbie
> will search in a FAQ longer than one screen :)
>
> Iskren
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From iskren.chernev at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 16:22:24 2007
From: iskren.chernev at gmail.com (Iskren Chernev)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:22:24 +0300
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Linux for Newbies
In-Reply-To: <13902.138.162.128.53.1184353010.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
References: <26d2590706202010s8e85f98ica2fb26ef0b2c23b@mail.gmail.com>
	<d920a27f0707090335r2cc2c5d4kd8a17443ab1a25ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<19993.138.162.128.53.1183983611.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<587fc9ca0707130800m13f43114x89d1f627a58d5883@mail.gmail.com>
	<45822.138.162.128.53.1184349991.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<000001c7c578$cc1a46d0$644ed470$@pl>
	<587fc9ca0707131116w7f6810b2u5da4e12e9c32932d@mail.gmail.com>
	<52995.138.162.128.53.1184350981.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
	<587fc9ca0707131143w5b93e620r7ca9e0fc0a9f0216@mail.gmail.com>
	<13902.138.162.128.53.1184353010.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <587fc9ca0707131322o553f0dd2i460465eccb2b15a1@mail.gmail.com>

Any computer with linux and a nice connection to the internet is a
potential host (or for example maintain the server at many computers
which will share the traffic - I don't understand that kind of stuff
(yet)). I'm not sure if an IRC room can be integrated in a web page
but since icq2go exists I think it can. About the pleasant view - I
personally am not good at it, but there surely are some more talented
developers / supporters.

On 7/13/07, Jacob Maynard <indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com> wrote:
> Agreed. Since I'm not yet a developer, and I don't use IRC (attach a yet
> to that), how do we get it to look aesthetically pleasing, and where can
> we implement it? Hosting is the biggest thing I wonder about.
>
> Jacob
>
>
> > Back to the topic I think that an IRC channel is the _most_
> > appropriate thing for newbies, because 'live' help is better than any
> > article or blog or tutorial, because it is possible to actually ask
> > questions rather than try to figure out what the person writhing the
> > article/tutorial was trying to say :). I thing that there should be
> > one major IRC channel for all distributions but it is important to
> > make it well known for the public (like badvista.org is on the first
> > page of googling "vista").
> >
> > Newbies will feel comfortable to know that whatever problem they have
> > someone could help them solve it, rather than trying to search with
> > google and find misleading / old / wrong information.
> >
> > It will be quite annoying to answer the same dumb questions over and
> > over again but I thing that after time we can make a FAQ based on the
> > asked questions and keep this FAQ as brief as possible, coz no newbie
> > will search in a FAQ longer than one screen :)
> >
> > Iskren
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Advocate mailing list
> > Advocate at badvista.org
> > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>


From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu  Fri Jul 27 00:10:38 2007
From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:10:38 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Fwd: [ifsa] Why not Windows?]
Message-ID: <46A9703E.8050807@gatech.edu>

This looks like a good site that could serve as the single Linux site 
for newbies people were discussing.

Matt Flaschen
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Subject: [ifsa] Why not Windows?
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:19:03 -0400
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From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Fri Jul 27 17:47:53 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:47:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Fwd: [ifsa] Why not Windows?]
In-Reply-To: <46A9703E.8050807@gatech.edu>
References: <46A9703E.8050807@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <41136.192.168.1.1.1185572873.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Which site? Did you mean to send a link? I didn't get it.

Jacob

> This looks like a good site that could serve as the single Linux site
> for newbies people were discussing.
>
> Matt Flaschen
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com  Fri Jul 27 17:52:11 2007
From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:52:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [Fwd: [ifsa] Why not Windows?]
In-Reply-To: <46A9703E.8050807@gatech.edu>
References: <46A9703E.8050807@gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <47951.192.168.1.1.1185573131.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com>

Ignore me. I didn't see the attachment. Idiot, I know.

Jacob

> This looks like a good site that could serve as the single Linux site
> for newbies people were discussing.
>
> Matt Flaschen
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>




From 2600denver at gmail.com  Sun Jul 29 12:49:10 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:49:10 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Fwd: [ifsa] [Good example] Massive Protests in
	Chile anti-microsoft
In-Reply-To: <46ACA0A0.9050809@binaryfreedom.info>
References: <46ACA0A0.9050809@binaryfreedom.info>
Message-ID: <3922422b0707290949n1128718ei1535d41d178cd49d@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: rek2GNU/Linux <rek2 at binaryfreedom.info>
Date: Jul 29, 2007 10:13 AM
Subject: [ifsa] [Good example] Massive Protests in Chile anti-microsoft
To: Independent Free Software Global Activist
<independentfreesoftwareactivists at binaryfreedom.info>


Looks like Chile government after thinking in moving to free software,
and of course the US diplomats and Microsoft black agents
got in the middle and turn the whole thing back again, for this there
are massive protests in Chile for the government decision is on front
pages on all
Spanish news papers..(yes regular news papers not technical)
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2007/07/29/catalejo/1185698217.html

--
Chris Fernandez
BinaryFreedom Founder
http://www.binaryfreedom.info
gNewSense KDE Developer
Socialist Party USA
http://www.spboston.org
-------------------
"We are dealing with class issues. Something is wrong with capitalism...
maybe America must move toward democratic socialism." Martin Luther King Jr.
------------------
"For profit health care is ethically and morally bankrupt."
------------------
Those who make peacefull revolution impossible, will make violent
revolution inevitable. John F Kennedy.

--

IndependentFreeSoftwareActivists mailing list
IndependentFreeSoftwareActivists at binaryfreedom.info
http://www.binaryfreedom.info/mailman/listinfo/independentfreesoftwareactivists
List rules: http://www.binaryfreedom.info/?q=node/48


From 2600denver at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 19:25:37 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:25:37 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Stop Vista in our Schools!
Message-ID: <3922422b0707301625w57f03a72ydfeae7fec5800b33@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for Christian for the heads up on this. The Department of
Education is conducting a survey about technology in schools. Many of
us have been trying to get free software in schools and running into
block after block as to why they won't use it. For many people this
block has been that the state/national Department of Education doesn't
really support Free Software and won't support it. The same problems
happen when we want our schools to use open formats. Please use this
opportunity to give the department of education you thoughts on Vista,
Free Software, DRM, and our children's future.
http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/os/technology/roundtable.html
In Solidarity,
Comrade Ringo Kamens
This posting was originally made to the Binary Freedom Announcements
List for Binary Freedom Boston. For more information please visit
http://www.binaryfreedom.info


From trmusson at ihug.co.nz  Tue Jul 31 09:35:37 2007
From: trmusson at ihug.co.nz (Timothy Musson)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 01:35:37 +1200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Question about Vista's EULA
Message-ID: <20070731133537.GA28872@pratfall>

Hi,

Here's Vista's EULA:

  http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20Vista_Ultimate_English_36d0fe99-75e4-4875-8153-889cf5105718.pdf

I think that's the license for retail boxes of Vista. It begins with the
following text:

  "By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept
   them, do not use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for
   a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund there, contact
   Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for
   information about Microsoft's refund policies.
   See www.microsoft.com/worldwide."

Does anyone know if OEM versions (i.e., the Vista that comes
pre-installed on laptops) include that piece of text?

(In case it's relevant, I'm especially interested in Dell laptops and
IBM ThinkPads.)

So that was my question. In case you're interested, here's why I'm
asking:

I've decided to buy a laptop, but I have no intention of paying the
"Microsoft tax". Unfortunately, where I live (New Zealand), it's
impossible to buy a laptop without Windows pre-installed.

So it looks like my only option is to buy the laptop, then fight to get
a refund on Windows.

After reading about the experiences of other people, here's what I'm
thinking:

1) Let the retailer know I'm about to order a laptop, that I don't use
   or want Windows, and that I plan to ask for a refund as described in
   the EULA.

2) Switch the laptop on for the first time in the presence of a JP, and
   make a video or take photos, to verify that I don't agree to the
   EULA. Boot with a live CD and install GNU/Linux.

3) Ask the retailer for a refund on Windows - or, failing that, ask
   Microsoft for a refund on Windows.

4) Failing (3), try "Fair Go" (local 'consumer' advocacy TV programme)
   or small claims court.


If anyone has advice/suggestions, it'd be very welcome :^)

Thanks very much,

Tim
-- 
Timothy Musson                FSF Associate Member #1262
http://www.russsoc.org.nz/           http://www.fsf.org/


From neugens at limasoftware.net  Tue Jul 31 11:35:31 2007
From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:35:31 +0200
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Question about Vista's EULA
In-Reply-To: <20070731133537.GA28872@pratfall>
References: <20070731133537.GA28872@pratfall>
Message-ID: <1185896131.3202.13.camel@nirvana.limasoftware.net>

Il giorno mer, 01/08/2007 alle 01.35 +1200, Timothy Musson ha scritto:

> If anyone has advice/suggestions, it'd be very welcome :^)
> 
> Thanks very much,
> 
> Tim

Hello!

I hope to be wrong, but we discussed that while trying to organize a
movement to help people doing just that, avoid the m$ tax.

It seems that some companies require you give back the whole computer if
you don't accept the m$ license. This is because m$ sold to, say, HP
(Dell, IBM for that matter) the right to use the software, then these
companies give you, under the EULA, right to use the software, following
that a given copy of the software is tied to exactly one machine (the
one you get).

On a side note, I've got an HP laptop and this was clearly stated: with
the m$ EULA, there was an HP EULA stating that the software installed
was subject to license, I had the right to remove that, but not to copy
it or install on a different computer (bla bla bla), and that if I
wanted money back I had to return the machine as is to the shop within a
month or so, or to a valid HP support center.

I hate to admit that I gave up on that.

We are in the middle of a petition to ask our Government to give
customers the right to get money back if they don't use the
pre-installed software and to make that easy.

So my guess is that this really depends on your own country. If you
manage to get these money back, please share your experience with us.

Mario
-- 
Lima Software - http://www.limasoftware.net/
GNU Classpath Developer - http://www.classpath.org/
Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarioTorre
Jabber: neugens at jabber.org
pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF

Please, support open standards:
http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
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From 2600denver at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 11:40:13 2007
From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:40:13 -0400
Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Question about Vista's EULA
In-Reply-To: <1185896131.3202.13.camel@nirvana.limasoftware.net>
References: <20070731133537.GA28872@pratfall>
	<1185896131.3202.13.camel@nirvana.limasoftware.net>
Message-ID: <3922422b0707310840wb200fcayd248b0e37d73cc33@mail.gmail.com>

I have heard about people sucessfully getting a refund for their
windows software by going back to the retailer. I believe this is more
likely to work at small-time computer shops as opposed to
mega-conglomerates like wal-mart or best buy. It's worth a try. If
they refuse to take back the software or computer (as in they refuse
to take back anything) then you can launch a fraud claim against them
in small claims court. 99% of the time they give you what you want and
you don't really even need a lawyer for it. Check out NOLOs books on
small claims court and lawsuits.
Comrade Ringo Kamens

On 7/31/07, Mario Torre <neugens at limasoftware.net> wrote:
> Il giorno mer, 01/08/2007 alle 01.35 +1200, Timothy Musson ha scritto:
>
> > If anyone has advice/suggestions, it'd be very welcome :^)
> >
> > Thanks very much,
> >
> > Tim
>
> Hello!
>
> I hope to be wrong, but we discussed that while trying to organize a
> movement to help people doing just that, avoid the m$ tax.
>
> It seems that some companies require you give back the whole computer if
> you don't accept the m$ license. This is because m$ sold to, say, HP
> (Dell, IBM for that matter) the right to use the software, then these
> companies give you, under the EULA, right to use the software, following
> that a given copy of the software is tied to exactly one machine (the
> one you get).
>
> On a side note, I've got an HP laptop and this was clearly stated: with
> the m$ EULA, there was an HP EULA stating that the software installed
> was subject to license, I had the right to remove that, but not to copy
> it or install on a different computer (bla bla bla), and that if I
> wanted money back I had to return the machine as is to the shop within a
> month or so, or to a valid HP support center.
>
> I hate to admit that I gave up on that.
>
> We are in the middle of a petition to ask our Government to give
> customers the right to get money back if they don't use the
> pre-installed software and to make that easy.
>
> So my guess is that this really depends on your own country. If you
> manage to get these money back, please share your experience with us.
>
> Mario
> --
> Lima Software - http://www.limasoftware.net/
> GNU Classpath Developer - http://www.classpath.org/
> Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarioTorre
> Jabber: neugens at jabber.org
> pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
> Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF
>
> Please, support open standards:
> http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/
> http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Advocate mailing list
> Advocate at badvista.org
> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate
>
>
>