From johns at fsf.org Wed Apr 18 17:12:35 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:12:35 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] First post d00d! Message-ID: <87y7kpfku4.fsf@spider.localnet> Testing. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 02:34:19 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:04:19 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] I wrote an article Message-ID: I posted an article on my blog to raise the awareness about BAD vista movement. You can check it from this link http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html Just doing my service for the Free Softwear World. cheers -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070419/1fcad835/attachment.htm From 2600denver at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 10:08:41 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:08:41 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] I wrote an article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3922422b0704190708t1afaebf5kd9a84115b9b50eb2@mail.gmail.com> Props. I also wrote one coming up in Linux+ magazine (lpmagazine.org/en) Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/19/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: > I posted an article on my blog to raise the awareness about BAD vista > movement. You can check it from this link > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > Just doing my service for the Free Softwear World. cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > From johns at fsf.org Fri Apr 20 13:12:59 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:12:59 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New post: Support government moves away from Vista Message-ID: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> Please help get the word out about this: http://badvista.fsf.org/blog/support-governments-moving-away-from-windows-vista-and-toward-free-software http://digg.com/software/Support_moves_by_governments_away_from_Vista_and_toward_free_software/blog http://del.icio.us/url/83484d7a1c0456c83a5f55eb7f86e58b If you post this to any other place where people can vote for it, please let the list know! Thanks, -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From johns at fsf.org Fri Apr 20 13:55:35 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:55:35 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New post: Support government moves away from Vista In-Reply-To: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> (John Sullivan's message of "Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:12:59 -0400") References: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <87irbrrkvc.fsf@spider.localnet> Here's a reddit link for this article too: http://reddit.com/info/1jkv6/comments -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From jlp at holodeck1.com Fri Apr 20 15:27:28 2007 From: jlp at holodeck1.com (Jure Repinc) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:27:28 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New post: Support government moves away from Vista In-Reply-To: <87irbrrkvc.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> <87irbrrkvc.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <46291420.2050600@holodeck1.com> John Sullivan pravi: > Here's a reddit link for this article too: > > http://reddit.com/info/1jkv6/comments http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/badvista.fsf.org/blog/support-governments-moving-away-from-windows-vista-and-toward-free-software I've also added it to Stumble Upon. -- JLP's Blog - http://jlp.holodeck1.com/blog/ From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Fri Apr 20 15:30:00 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:30:00 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New post: Support government moves away from Vista In-Reply-To: <46291420.2050600@holodeck1.com> References: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> <87irbrrkvc.fsf@spider.localnet> <46291420.2050600@holodeck1.com> Message-ID: <462914B8.2000002@binaryfreedom.info> thanks for helping us! Chris Fernandez http://www.binaryfreedom.info Jure Repinc wrote: > John Sullivan pravi: > >> Here's a reddit link for this article too: >> >> http://reddit.com/info/1jkv6/comments >> > > http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/badvista.fsf.org/blog/support-governments-moving-away-from-windows-vista-and-toward-free-software > > I've also added it to Stumble Upon. > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070420/f179c8b9/rek2.vcf From bradleyp at juno.com Sun Apr 22 22:47:05 2007 From: bradleyp at juno.com (bradleyp@juno.com) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:47:05 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Admits Vista Failure - News story by the Inquirer Message-ID: <20070422.194705.3356.2.bradleyp@juno.com> Microsoft doesn't literally admit that Vista is a failure, but their actions are of a nature that suggests they are in a damage control mode. One of the problems is that OEM's like Dell have backpedaled on a total commitment to Vista in favor of XP. http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39087 Spread the word!! Brad From jlp at holodeck1.com Mon Apr 23 00:42:47 2007 From: jlp at holodeck1.com (Jure Repinc) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 06:42:47 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Admits Vista Failure - News story by the Inquirer In-Reply-To: <20070422.194705.3356.2.bradleyp@juno.com> References: <20070422.194705.3356.2.bradleyp@juno.com> Message-ID: <462C3947.6050700@holodeck1.com> bradleyp at juno.com pravi: > Microsoft doesn't literally admit that Vista is a failure, but their > actions are of a nature that suggests they are in a damage control mode. > One of the problems is that OEM's like Dell have backpedaled on a total > commitment to Vista in favor of XP. > > http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39087 > > Spread the word!! People are already spreading the word here: http://digg.com/microsoft/Microsoft_admits_Vista_failure http://reddit.com/info/1jrhp/comments http://del.icio.us/url/d8d04b30a0b78931d856cb400619672c http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/theinquirer.net/default.aspx%3Farticle=39087 Help them out! -- JLP's Blog - http://jlp.holodeck1.com/blog/ From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 07:06:12 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:12 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog Message-ID: Hi guys, I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer some questions. the link for that post is http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html cheers -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070424/6659f778/attachment.htm From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 10:47:09 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:47:09 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> Yasith, As I also posted on your blog: Sometimes it's best not to feed trolls. After a honest endeavor to explain something to some one, it sometimes becomes apparent that they are not interested in anything except causing problems, and that they had no intention of either learning, or teaching anyone anything. They exist simply for the attention they believe they get by behaving badly. So the best thing to do, once you have identified such a person, is to simply ignore them. Ignoring them denies them the very thing they are trying to get --feedback which they need to justify their own existence. It's OK to feel sympathy for such people, but what they truly need is psychiatric help. So just do your best to spread the word about what a disaster Vista is, and accept the fact that in doing so you will occasionally run across such people. Keep up the good work, spread the word, ignore the trolls. D. Hensley -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org *************************************************** On Tuesday 24 April 2007 04:06 am, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: Hi guys, I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer some questions. the link for that post is http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html cheers From johns at fsf.org Tue Apr 24 11:25:51 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:25:51 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> (Don Hensley's message of "Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:47:09 -0700") References: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> Don Hensley writes: > Sometimes it's best not to feed trolls. I also don't think that it's the best idea to attack people for being anonymous. Many free software supporters support the ability to be anonymous on the net. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 11:33:51 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:33:51 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <200704240833.51528.Don@donhensley.com> Good catch John. I should have mentioned that myself, being a great believer in the concept of anonymous voting, which I personally equate with anonymous posting. An absolutely vital ingredient for a healthy society is the ability to make your thoughts know, without fear of repercussion. Thanks, Don. **************** On Tuesday 24 April 2007 08:25 am, John Sullivan wrote: Don Hensley writes: > Sometimes it's best not to feed trolls. I also don't think that it's the best idea to attack people for being anonymous. Many free software supporters support the ability to be anonymous on the net. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 11:44:48 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:44:48 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <200704240844.48247.Don@donhensley.com> Sigh, Now writing 100 times on blackboard, "know, is different from known, I will pay more attention to reviewing my writing before hitting the send button." Tearing hair out and searching for more chalk, Don. **************** On Tuesday 24 April 2007 08:25 am, John Sullivan wrote: Don Hensley writes: > Sometimes it's best not to feed trolls. I also don't think that it's the best idea to attack people for being anonymous. Many free software supporters support the ability to be anonymous on the net. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From PPBoy828 at aol.com Tue Apr 24 13:18:04 2007 From: PPBoy828 at aol.com (PPBoy828@aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:18:04 EDT Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog Message-ID: My blog, as well: _All Tech_ (http://alltech828.blogspot.com/) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070424/57bad6b8/attachment.htm From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Tue Apr 24 15:53:37 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Gentlemen, Let's remember that we are not trying to turn this into a battle over whose is better than whose regardless of facts. We can't let it turn into a name-calling battle, either. If you have questions, there are sure to be plenty of people here to help. Thank you, Yasith for asking for help. We can't just let the "trolls" be ignored in blogs, though. What we need is to show them the ways that they are wrong with hard proof. I've seen the DRM slides. There's more proof like that out there. We need it to be publicized. We need to combat the "trolls" with tact. Keep up the good work. Jacob > Hi guys, > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer > some questions. the link for that post is > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Tue Apr 24 16:01:31 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:01:31 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <462E621B.60608@binaryfreedom.info> I agree with Jacob. sometimes is better to show the evidence. Chris Fernandez Founder of BinaryFreedom http://www.binaryfreedom.info Jacob Maynard wrote: > Gentlemen, > > Let's remember that we are not trying to turn this into a battle over > whose is better than whose regardless of facts. We can't let it turn into > a name-calling battle, either. If you have questions, there are sure to be > plenty of people here to help. Thank you, Yasith for asking for help. > > We can't just let the "trolls" be ignored in blogs, though. What we need > is to show them the ways that they are wrong with hard proof. I've seen > the DRM slides. There's more proof like that out there. We need it to be > publicized. We need to combat the "trolls" with tact. > > Keep up the good work. > > Jacob > > > >> Hi guys, >> I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my >> blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much >> thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post >> answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer >> some questions. the link for that post is >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html >> >> cheers >> -- >> \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ >> .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ >> |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070424/2611c35c/rek2.vcf From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 16:12:01 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:12:01 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> I really hope that was not the way you took my comment about trolls. I meant it in exactly the way a troll is defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll "In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding." I did say that one should first make every effort possible, at least that is what I meant by; " After a honest endeavor to explain something to some one, it sometimes becomes apparent that they are not interested in anything except causing problems, and that they had no intention of either learning, or teaching anyone anything." After reading the comments on Yasith's blog, I thought I detected a troll at work. Possibly I was wrong, and it is good that some of you have more patience then I. But at some point we all are going to be faced with a troll, and when that point arrives I think my advice is sound. But we each must decide at what point our efforts are being spent feeding the troll, instead of helping a person. All in all a rather subjective point I'd say. BTW, BinaryFreedom is a really great site. D. Hensley. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org ********************************************** On Tuesday 24 April 2007 12:53 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: Gentlemen, Let's remember that we are not trying to turn this into a battle over whose is better than whose regardless of facts. We can't let it turn into a name-calling battle, either. If you have questions, there are sure to be plenty of people here to help. Thank you, Yasith for asking for help. We can't just let the "trolls" be ignored in blogs, though. What we need is to show them the ways that they are wrong with hard proof. I've seen the DRM slides. There's more proof like that out there. We need it to be publicized. We need to combat the "trolls" with tact. Keep up the good work. Jacob > Hi guys, > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer > some questions. the link for that post is > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Tue Apr 24 16:26:35 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> References: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Even though I didn't take the comment that way, it's something we have to watch for. If we don't we sound like the little kids in the back seat on a long road trip. I just think that since we are trying to convince the general public to switch to open source, I think that we need to maintain our maturity and beware not to let it fall to that level. The trolls will say their things, but we can't let questions go unanswered. Does that make sense? I don't want there to be a question from someone who is obviously baiting, and have it be the question of someone who is legitimately looking for answers, then not have it answered. So once you beat them with proof, they will resort to the little kid in the back seat. As long as our answers are legitimate, people will know that the "trolls" lost. If we get two or three trolls actively throwing stuff out like that, and we have even 8 of us actively countering with proof, we still will have enough people and brainpower to thwart them. This is what the general public will see. Publicity is just politics. If you play it right, people will go with you. Then they will learn that it is better for them in the long run. Jacob > > I really hope that was not the way you took my comment about trolls. > > I meant it in exactly the way a troll is defined here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll > > "In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts > derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an > established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait > users > into responding." > > I did say that one should first make every effort possible, at least that > is > what I meant by; > > " After a honest endeavor to explain something to some one, it sometimes > becomes apparent that they are not interested in anything except causing > problems, and that they had no intention of either learning, or teaching > anyone anything." > > After reading the comments on Yasith's blog, I thought I detected a troll > at > work. Possibly I was wrong, and it is good that some of you have more > patience then I. > > But at some point we all are going to be faced with a troll, and when that > point arrives I think my advice is sound. > > But we each must decide at what point our efforts are being spent feeding > the > troll, instead of helping a person. > > All in all a rather subjective point I'd say. > > BTW, BinaryFreedom is a really great site. > > D. Hensley. > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > ********************************************** > On Tuesday 24 April 2007 12:53 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > Gentlemen, > > Let's remember that we are not trying to turn this into a battle over > whose is better than whose regardless of facts. We can't let it turn into > a name-calling battle, either. If you have questions, there are sure to be > plenty of people here to help. Thank you, Yasith for asking for help. > > We can't just let the "trolls" be ignored in blogs, though. What we need > is to show them the ways that they are wrong with hard proof. I've seen > the DRM slides. There's more proof like that out there. We need it to be > publicized. We need to combat the "trolls" with tact. > > Keep up the good work. > > Jacob > >> Hi guys, >> I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my >> blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much >> thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post >> answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to >> answer >> some questions. the link for that post is >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html >> >> cheers >> -- >> \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ >> .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ >> >> |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| >> >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 18:22:45 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:22:45 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704241522.45267.Don@donhensley.com> An interesting take on things. A view I had not considered - at least not for a very long time. Lets see if I have this right, or at least passably close. I suspect you view it as being a sort of competition - almost a sporting event, for the spectators on the sidelines, as it were. It's not about the troll (if such he be), but rather to show other readers that he is wrong, so they will not go away feeling that the trolls questions were not answered, and by association feeling that all us "geeky, nerd, coder types" are not very helpful, and GNU/Linux is not for them. Mostly because the spectator may not know about trolls and such, and therefore needs to be clear about the points you are making about Free Software. Did I get that about right? Now please believe me, I am not trolling here. The thing is that I'm almost 70 years old, and while I grew up with this industry, or more accurately this industry grew up with me --in truth I helped build some of it. I also am well aware that the future does not belong to me. This just means that I also may have a considerable different take on some things - not necessarily the 'right' or 'only' take, just one that goes with my personal experiences. So this is a very serious question --I'm just trying to see if I understand your point. If I have got it right, then it is an interesting way to look at it, and I will want to think about that method. Off the top I think it is probably very accurate and applicable to today's users. But it would be unlikely to sway me much (as one of the 'spectators'). That's what I meant about patience. For me, after the third or fourth "Asked and Answered", with each side becoming more heated, I lose all interest in what ever the subject was. And just read no further. Which means that from that point on, anything anyone posts is lost to me anyway, because I'm long gone (me, or any 'spectator' that feels the way I do). But I think that I can (dimly) remember a time that I might not have felt that way --I would probably have been in there trying to make my point that way also. Now I just do it differently, and it works quite well for me. But I suspect... well I know, that I deal with a considerably different set of prospective new to GNU/Linux converts, or potential converts, then most of you do. I know this because while I still build and install computer systems, retirement has the advantage of allowing me to only do 100% GNU/Linux systems. I just refuse to work on, install, or fix, anything else. So far --this year-- I've installed 14 GNU/Linux systems for people, the youngest of which was 59 years old, the oldest is 83 (the person, not the system ;). These are all GNU/Linux only users, no dual boot, or second computers running Windows. Some had an old Windows box first, and some are brand new to all this computer/Internet stuff. I'm positive not one of them even knows what a blog is (they may learn - or not, hard to say). But they would all recognize and ignore a troll, even if they would not use the term 'troll' to describe such a person. So my approach is different. Not better, just different. And there is one other little thing my 'old' users do, that I think has value. They tend to be the people that buy the computers for grand-kids, etc. and you know what system they will expect to be on the grand-kids box. Yep, the system they understand --which won't be Windows. I've been doing this for enough years now to have some of my 'people' from years past starting to taste the anger, when they find out they can't simply buy a box with GNU/Linux pre-installed for a son, or daughter, or one of the grand-kids. For them the taste is bitter, for me their anger has the sweet taste of success at achieving my underlying goal. And twice as sweet because this is beginning to change, soon finding a GNU/Linux pre-installed system may be as easy as phoning Dell (or whatever major player that is smart enough to get on the GNU/Linux bandwagon). While it may not (yet) be pure GNU/Linux, it will be a big step towards that goal. We will 'win' this war, as long as we all work at it as best we can. So keep workin' at it, any way you can. That's what I plan to do for as long as I can. D. Hensley -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org ******************************************* On Tuesday 24 April 2007 01:26 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: Even though I didn't take the comment that way, it's something we have to watch for. If we don't we sound like the little kids in the back seat on a long road trip. I just think that since we are trying to convince the general public to switch to open source, I think that we need to maintain our maturity and beware not to let it fall to that level. The trolls will say their things, but we can't let questions go unanswered. Does that make sense? I don't want there to be a question from someone who is obviously baiting, and have it be the question of someone who is legitimately looking for answers, then not have it answered. So once you beat them with proof, they will resort to the little kid in the back seat. As long as our answers are legitimate, people will know that the "trolls" lost. If we get two or three trolls actively throwing stuff out like that, and we have even 8 of us actively countering with proof, we still will have enough people and brainpower to thwart them. This is what the general public will see. Publicity is just politics. If you play it right, people will go with you. Then they will learn that it is better for them in the long run. Jacob From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Tue Apr 24 18:50:43 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <200704241522.45267.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704241522.45267.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <36535.192.168.1.1.1177455043.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> This was a lot to think about and respond to, but we have several things that we could bring to the benefit of the open source community. Already, Dell is working to decide which distribution to install for users. It needs to be something simple with KDE or GNOME already set as default so as not to confuse the "I've only used Windows so I don't know anything else and don't want to take the time to learn something else" users. It needs to have all of your basics for productivity and entertainment. Then, we also have to cater to the gamers, who are in a very large number. One thing I'm sad to say is that Linux does not have the same multimedia support that Windows has, and I say this in the sense of codecs. It is too complicated to set it up for a normal Windows user. This is why the choosing of the distribution is of the utmost importance for the "word of mouth" type of publicity. Linux doesn't have the income to support television or radio or newspaper advertisements to get the word out there that there is an alternative. I am only 24 years old and I own 5 computers. I do this as a hobby, not a job. I have one computer set up as a server (overloaded, I might add, but still operating fantastically!) with Fedora Core 5, one as a backup server/mess around with computer running SuSE 10. One computer is a 1996 Toshiba Satellite which runs Slackware for my "have to have only command prompt days." The last one is my Windows XP Alienware that was purchased for gaming. This is another things about Linux that upsets me; the gaming situation. My point with that last paragraph was actually to say that we have different viewpoints because of generational opinions on the "troll" situatiton. It needs to be handled delicately. You may stop reading when debate becomes heated, but for the new generation of "I love soap opera drama" information seekers, they thrive on it. The trick is to make it seem like an argument that is not an argument. That way, yes, the sidelined, knowledge thirsty individuals reaching for answers or alternatives can see. If we lose the battle to the "troll", our cause is viewed as weak. If we win because we said, "I'm right and you're wrong" more times, our cause is not taken seriously and people go back to surfing the rest of the internet. Our goal should be to win with facts that other people, not necessarily the "troll", can ponder and mull over. If we lose the "troll", we've only lost one. If our facts persuade anybody who stumbles on or watches this site, then we've gained that many. Our chances are greater to sway people when we keep our cool. That's what I had to say in a nutshell. And my wife is beating me to come to dinner, but I will write more on this topic as the situations come up, or if I can think of anything else. Thanks for your time and well thought-out responses. Jacob > > An interesting take on things. A view I had not considered - at least not > for > a very long time. > > Lets see if I have this right, or at least passably close. > > I suspect you view it as being a sort of competition - almost a sporting > event, for the spectators on the sidelines, as it were. > > It's not about the troll (if such he be), but rather to show other readers > that he is wrong, so they will not go away feeling that the trolls > questions > were not answered, and by association feeling that all us "geeky, nerd, > coder > types" are not very helpful, and GNU/Linux is not for them. > > Mostly because the spectator may not know about trolls and such, and > therefore > needs to be clear about the points you are making about Free Software. > > Did I get that about right? > > Now please believe me, I am not trolling here. The thing is that I'm > almost 70 > years old, and while I grew up with this industry, or more accurately this > industry grew up with me --in truth I helped build some of it. I also am > well > aware that the future does not belong to me. > > This just means that I also may have a considerable different take on some > things - not necessarily the 'right' or 'only' take, just one that goes > with > my personal experiences. > > So this is a very serious question --I'm just trying to see if I > understand > your point. > > If I have got it right, then it is an interesting way to look at it, and I > will want to think about that method. > > Off the top I think it is probably very accurate and applicable to today's > users. But it would be unlikely to sway me much (as one of the > 'spectators'). > > That's what I meant about patience. For me, after the third or fourth > "Asked > and Answered", with each side becoming more heated, I lose all interest in > what ever the subject was. And just read no further. > > Which means that from that point on, anything anyone posts is lost to me > anyway, because I'm long gone (me, or any 'spectator' that feels the way I > do). > > But I think that I can (dimly) remember a time that I might not have felt > that > way --I would probably have been in there trying to make my point that way > also. > > Now I just do it differently, and it works quite well for me. But I > suspect... > well I know, that I deal with a considerably different set of prospective > new > to GNU/Linux converts, or potential converts, then most of you do. > > I know this because while I still build and install computer systems, > retirement has the advantage of allowing me to only do 100% GNU/Linux > systems. I just refuse to work on, install, or fix, anything else. > > So far --this year-- I've installed 14 GNU/Linux systems for people, the > youngest of which was 59 years old, the oldest is 83 (the person, not the > system ;). > > These are all GNU/Linux only users, no dual boot, or second computers > running > Windows. Some had an old Windows box first, and some are brand new to all > this computer/Internet stuff. > > I'm positive not one of them even knows what a blog is (they may learn - > or > not, hard to say). But they would all recognize and ignore a troll, even > if > they would not use the term 'troll' to describe such a person. So my > approach > is different. > > Not better, just different. > > And there is one other little thing my 'old' users do, that I think has > value. > They tend to be the people that buy the computers for grand-kids, etc. and > you know what system they will expect to be on the grand-kids box. > > Yep, the system they understand --which won't be Windows. > > I've been doing this for enough years now to have some of my 'people' from > years past starting to taste the anger, when they find out they can't > simply > buy a box with GNU/Linux pre-installed for a son, or daughter, or one of > the > grand-kids. > > For them the taste is bitter, for me their anger has the sweet taste of > success at achieving my underlying goal. > > And twice as sweet because this is beginning to change, soon finding a > GNU/Linux pre-installed system may be as easy as phoning Dell (or whatever > major player that is smart enough to get on the GNU/Linux bandwagon). > > While it may not (yet) be pure GNU/Linux, it will be a big step towards > that > goal. > > We will 'win' this war, as long as we all work at it as best we can. > > So keep workin' at it, any way you can. That's what I plan to do for as > long > as I can. > > D. Hensley > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > ******************************************* > On Tuesday 24 April 2007 01:26 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > Even though I didn't take the comment that way, it's something we have to > watch for. If we don't we sound like the little kids in the back seat on a > long road trip. I just think that since we are trying to convince the > general public to switch to open source, I think that we need to maintain > our maturity and beware not to let it fall to that level. The trolls will > say their things, but we can't let questions go unanswered. Does that make > sense? I don't want there to be a question from someone who is obviously > baiting, and have it be the question of someone who is legitimately > looking for answers, then not have it answered. > > So once you beat them with proof, they will resort to the little kid in > the back seat. As long as our answers are legitimate, people will know > that the "trolls" lost. > > If we get two or three trolls actively throwing stuff out like that, and > we have even 8 of us actively countering with proof, we still will have > enough people and brainpower to thwart them. This is what the general > public will see. Publicity is just politics. If you play it right, people > will go with you. Then they will learn that it is better for them in the > long run. > > Jacob > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 11:18:49 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:48:49 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <36535.192.168.1.1.1177455043.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704241522.45267.Don@donhensley.com> <36535.192.168.1.1.1177455043.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: I won't attack anyone because of anonymity in the futeure, thank you all for your support On 4/25/07, Jacob Maynard wrote: > > This was a lot to think about and respond to, but we have several things > that we could bring to the benefit of the open source community. Already, > Dell is working to decide which distribution to install for users. It > needs to be something simple with KDE or GNOME already set as default so > as not to confuse the "I've only used Windows so I don't know anything > else and don't want to take the time to learn something else" users. It > needs to have all of your basics for productivity and entertainment. Then, > we also have to cater to the gamers, who are in a very large number. > > One thing I'm sad to say is that Linux does not have the same multimedia > support that Windows has, and I say this in the sense of codecs. It is too > complicated to set it up for a normal Windows user. This is why the > choosing of the distribution is of the utmost importance for the "word of > mouth" type of publicity. Linux doesn't have the income to support > television or radio or newspaper advertisements to get the word out there > that there is an alternative. > > I am only 24 years old and I own 5 computers. I do this as a hobby, not a > job. I have one computer set up as a server (overloaded, I might add, but > still operating fantastically!) with Fedora Core 5, one as a backup > server/mess around with computer running SuSE 10. One computer is a 1996 > Toshiba Satellite which runs Slackware for my "have to have only command > prompt days." The last one is my Windows XP Alienware that was purchased > for gaming. This is another things about Linux that upsets me; the gaming > situation. > > My point with that last paragraph was actually to say that we have > different viewpoints because of generational opinions on the "troll" > situatiton. It needs to be handled delicately. You may stop reading when > debate becomes heated, but for the new generation of "I love soap opera > drama" information seekers, they thrive on it. The trick is to make it > seem like an argument that is not an argument. That way, yes, the > sidelined, knowledge thirsty individuals reaching for answers or > alternatives can see. If we lose the battle to the "troll", our cause is > viewed as weak. If we win because we said, "I'm right and you're wrong" > more times, our cause is not taken seriously and people go back to surfing > the rest of the internet. > > Our goal should be to win with facts that other people, not necessarily > the "troll", can ponder and mull over. If we lose the "troll", we've only > lost one. If our facts persuade anybody who stumbles on or watches this > site, then we've gained that many. Our chances are greater to sway people > when we keep our cool. > > That's what I had to say in a nutshell. And my wife is beating me to come > to dinner, but I will write more on this topic as the situations come up, > or if I can think of anything else. > > Thanks for your time and well thought-out responses. > > Jacob > > > > > An interesting take on things. A view I had not considered - at least > not > > for > > a very long time. > > > > Lets see if I have this right, or at least passably close. > > > > I suspect you view it as being a sort of competition - almost a sporting > > event, for the spectators on the sidelines, as it were. > > > > It's not about the troll (if such he be), but rather to show other > readers > > that he is wrong, so they will not go away feeling that the trolls > > questions > > were not answered, and by association feeling that all us "geeky, nerd, > > coder > > types" are not very helpful, and GNU/Linux is not for them. > > > > Mostly because the spectator may not know about trolls and such, and > > therefore > > needs to be clear about the points you are making about Free Software. > > > > Did I get that about right? > > > > Now please believe me, I am not trolling here. The thing is that I'm > > almost 70 > > years old, and while I grew up with this industry, or more accurately > this > > industry grew up with me --in truth I helped build some of it. I also am > > well > > aware that the future does not belong to me. > > > > This just means that I also may have a considerable different take on > some > > things - not necessarily the 'right' or 'only' take, just one that goes > > with > > my personal experiences. > > > > So this is a very serious question --I'm just trying to see if I > > understand > > your point. > > > > If I have got it right, then it is an interesting way to look at it, and > I > > will want to think about that method. > > > > Off the top I think it is probably very accurate and applicable to > today's > > users. But it would be unlikely to sway me much (as one of the > > 'spectators'). > > > > That's what I meant about patience. For me, after the third or fourth > > "Asked > > and Answered", with each side becoming more heated, I lose all interest > in > > what ever the subject was. And just read no further. > > > > Which means that from that point on, anything anyone posts is lost to me > > anyway, because I'm long gone (me, or any 'spectator' that feels the way > I > > do). > > > > But I think that I can (dimly) remember a time that I might not have > felt > > that > > way --I would probably have been in there trying to make my point that > way > > also. > > > > Now I just do it differently, and it works quite well for me. But I > > suspect... > > well I know, that I deal with a considerably different set of > prospective > > new > > to GNU/Linux converts, or potential converts, then most of you do. > > > > I know this because while I still build and install computer systems, > > retirement has the advantage of allowing me to only do 100% GNU/Linux > > systems. I just refuse to work on, install, or fix, anything else. > > > > So far --this year-- I've installed 14 GNU/Linux systems for people, the > > youngest of which was 59 years old, the oldest is 83 (the person, not > the > > system ;). > > > > These are all GNU/Linux only users, no dual boot, or second computers > > running > > Windows. Some had an old Windows box first, and some are brand new to > all > > this computer/Internet stuff. > > > > I'm positive not one of them even knows what a blog is (they may learn - > > or > > not, hard to say). But they would all recognize and ignore a troll, even > > if > > they would not use the term 'troll' to describe such a person. So my > > approach > > is different. > > > > Not better, just different. > > > > And there is one other little thing my 'old' users do, that I think has > > value. > > They tend to be the people that buy the computers for grand-kids, etc. > and > > you know what system they will expect to be on the grand-kids box. > > > > Yep, the system they understand --which won't be Windows. > > > > I've been doing this for enough years now to have some of my 'people' > from > > years past starting to taste the anger, when they find out they can't > > simply > > buy a box with GNU/Linux pre-installed for a son, or daughter, or one of > > the > > grand-kids. > > > > For them the taste is bitter, for me their anger has the sweet taste of > > success at achieving my underlying goal. > > > > And twice as sweet because this is beginning to change, soon finding a > > GNU/Linux pre-installed system may be as easy as phoning Dell (or > whatever > > major player that is smart enough to get on the GNU/Linux bandwagon). > > > > While it may not (yet) be pure GNU/Linux, it will be a big step towards > > that > > goal. > > > > We will 'win' this war, as long as we all work at it as best we can. > > > > So keep workin' at it, any way you can. That's what I plan to do for as > > long > > as I can. > > > > D. Hensley > > -- > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > ******************************************* > > On Tuesday 24 April 2007 01:26 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > > Even though I didn't take the comment that way, it's something we have > to > > watch for. If we don't we sound like the little kids in the back seat on > a > > long road trip. I just think that since we are trying to convince the > > general public to switch to open source, I think that we need to > maintain > > our maturity and beware not to let it fall to that level. The trolls > will > > say their things, but we can't let questions go unanswered. Does that > make > > sense? I don't want there to be a question from someone who is obviously > > baiting, and have it be the question of someone who is legitimately > > looking for answers, then not have it answered. > > > > So once you beat them with proof, they will resort to the little kid in > > the back seat. As long as our answers are legitimate, people will know > > that the "trolls" lost. > > > > If we get two or three trolls actively throwing stuff out like that, and > > we have even 8 of us actively countering with proof, we still will have > > enough people and brainpower to thwart them. This is what the general > > public will see. Publicity is just politics. If you play it right, > people > > will go with you. Then they will learn that it is better for them in the > > long run. > > > > Jacob > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070425/148aea34/attachment-0001.htm From fred.k at ieee.org Wed Apr 25 23:39:39 2007 From: fred.k at ieee.org (Fred Okuma) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:39:39 +0900 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070426121448.0346bbd8@pop.md.point.ne.jp> All, I'd thank all members of this list, especially, Yasith for starting this discussion with your (nice) blog posting, Jacob for serving as an anchor (do I use the term right?), and Don for giving very warming take on the issue of trolls. Makes me think of many other issues including politics, humanity, volunteerism, etc. Keep on, Gals and Guys! BTW, I'm 7^2 yrs old, recent convert to GNU/Linux ( < 2 yrs). Fred Okuma From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 07:12:10 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:42:10 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070426121448.0346bbd8@pop.md.point.ne.jp> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070426121448.0346bbd8@pop.md.point.ne.jp> Message-ID: Let's make linux rock and let's spread the word that vista is bad On 4/26/07, Fred Okuma wrote: > > All, > > I'd thank all members of this list, especially, > Yasith for starting this discussion with your (nice) blog posting, > Jacob for serving as an anchor (do I use the term right?), and > Don for giving very warming take on the issue of trolls. Makes me think > of many other issues including politics, humanity, volunteerism, etc. > > Keep on, Gals and Guys! > > BTW, I'm 7^2 yrs old, recent convert to GNU/Linux ( < 2 yrs). > > Fred Okuma > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070426/cc2d0574/attachment.htm From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Fri Apr 27 14:47:46 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Hello to all, I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in a different way. My thoughts are that we need to provide more information about Linux on the site that actually pertains to your average user. I think that a "council" should decide a couple of distributions, focus on them, and explain them in detail. My thoughts even went to creating interactive tutorials via Shockwave, or something like that, to demonstrate what it looks like to use Linux. Of course, this "council" could just be everyone coming to a decision on all of this stuff. One of the major problems is that we need to get the "super-geek" image out of everyone's head when the name Linux is mentioned. It needs to be associated with everyone. I thought I'd throw this out there and get everyone's opinion on the matter. If you have an opinion, please let me know. I have become quite attuned to this issue in the last couple of days. Jacob > Hi guys, > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer > some questions. the link for that post is > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 15:52:38 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 03:52:38 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: > I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about > it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused > direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in > a different way. I second that, the site seems to need some arrangement. PS: While rms is not directly in charge of BadVista, may I propose that the term GNU/Linux be used instead of Linux while advocating for free alternative operating systems? Regards Koh Choon Lin From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Fri Apr 27 16:07:17 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:07:17 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <463257F5.10604@binaryfreedom.info> I agree with this.. GNU/Linux is not a RMS thing may of us agree that is the right definition. Chris F. BinaryFreedom Koh Choon Lin wrote: >> I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about >> it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused >> direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in >> a different way. >> > > I second that, the site seems to need some arrangement. > > PS: While rms is not directly in charge of BadVista, may I propose > that the term GNU/Linux be used instead of Linux while advocating for > free alternative operating systems? > > > > Regards > Koh Choon Lin > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070427/0ccab2e4/rek2.vcf From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Fri Apr 27 16:08:14 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <1117.192.168.1.1.1177704494.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I will personally agree to that. Jacob >> I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking >> about >> it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused >> direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged >> in >> a different way. > > I second that, the site seems to need some arrangement. > > PS: While rms is not directly in charge of BadVista, may I propose > that the term GNU/Linux be used instead of Linux while advocating for > free alternative operating systems? > > > > Regards > Koh Choon Lin > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From johns at fsf.org Fri Apr 27 16:58:13 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:58:13 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: (Koh Choon Lin's message of "Sat, 28 Apr 2007 03:52:38 +0800") References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> "Koh Choon Lin" writes: >> I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about >> it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused >> direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in >> a different way. > > I second that, the site seems to need some arrangement. > > PS: While rms is not directly in charge of BadVista, may I propose > that the term GNU/Linux be used instead of Linux while advocating for > free alternative operating systems? > Likewise, I think it is important to talk about "free software" rather than "open source" for our purposes. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html is a good article about this, with the basic point being that we are urging people to reject Vista specifically because of the ways in which it takes away their freedoms. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From Don at donhensley.com Fri Apr 27 20:41:58 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:41:58 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Hi Jacob, I think you have a good idea there, except that, so far as I know, Shockwave is closed proprietary software, possibly not the best thing for a GNU/Linux web site. I think we should, as the saying goes "Eat our own dog food". Adobe is talking about releasing the source for Flex and some of the SDK tools, but it is not clear just when, nor exactly what license they may use. Flex has a basic problem though, in that a web site developed in Flex requires some special ports to be open... a problem in and of it's self, for people like me. And then the Flex platform is likely to sill require some non free software to actually deliver content. There are other ways of doing highly interactive stuff, but I think it might be best if they were developed on our own servers. The reason I say this is that for the FSF to grant people access to their servers would no doubt be very problematic. They are not set up as a host, as in virtual hosting, and any access to the back end routines for serving interactive pages would be very difficult for them (I think - John can correct me if I've guessed wrong here). Have you any particular GNU /Linux Distro's in mind? I'd think one we should include by default, as it were, is gNewSense http://www.gnewsense.org/ It allows you, among other things, to build your own Distro. Pretty cool, no? Don. *************************************** On Friday 27 April 2007 11:47 am, Jacob Maynard wrote: Hello to all, I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in a different way. My thoughts are that we need to provide more information about Linux on the site that actually pertains to your average user. I think that a "council" should decide a couple of distributions, focus on them, and explain them in detail. My thoughts even went to creating interactive tutorials via Shockwave, or something like that, to demonstrate what it looks like to use Linux. Of course, this "council" could just be everyone coming to a decision on all of this stuff. One of the major problems is that we need to get the "super-geek" image out of everyone's head when the name Linux is mentioned. It needs to be associated with everyone. I thought I'd throw this out there and get everyone's opinion on the matter. If you have an opinion, please let me know. I have become quite attuned to this issue in the last couple of days. Jacob > Hi guys, > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer > some questions. the link for that post is > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Fri Apr 27 23:12:36 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 20:12:36 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have a Vista box up and running? One of the real problems I have, is that as all my systems are GNU/Linux (I left Windows behind quite some time ago), I really am hard pressed to actually get into technical problems with Vista. I can read what information is available, and I can see the impossible problem presented in the "If you can't open it, you don't own it" aspect of any proprietary software. And the underling problems with DRM are apparent as a simple exercise in logic. The problem is "How do I explain to a Vista user, or prospective Vista user, exactly what Freedom his software lacks (and what freedoms he is giving up by using Vista), when I don't even use it at all?" That is a point by point issue that perhaps we could work on getting into a form that might reach "Joe Sixpack", or "Anonymous". Every time I get serious about explaining this, I see eyeballs glaze over. Well what can I say, I am an engineer by training, a hacker by inclination (not the hacker the news media has corrupted the honorable title into). So how do I reach the average end user? I don't believe it's a requirement to reach "Granny", she will come to it on her own, or go with whatever the family geek sets up for her. (I get all my 'old people' because either I am recommended, or they have had such a bad experience with Windows that they are out searching for something better, and run across me). So long as it's set up for them, they are the easiest bunch I know of to get to be happy GNU/Linux users. Notice that I am in a de facto manner, simply becoming a non evil Redmond for them. I have made it all work, from the first time they use it, I hold their hand as long as is needed, and am available to help (i.e.; fix it.) when they do have a problem. This is not "Joe Sixpack" gets a distro and tries to install it... Games????? where are games??? No Second Life! Why!! But then gaming is not often a big thing with my clients, maybe poker or solitaire. Frozen Bubble is always a big hit. So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that is written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit from using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using Vista. Why giving up some things that Microsoft is using to entice you (and developers) with, is the right thing to do. And why it's going to ultimately benefit them to forgo some of those poisonous things. And the FAQ needs to be in easy to understand terms and verbiage. As Jacob and I not long ago discovered, what seems obvious to one person (or age group) may not be obvious at all to another. This is one of the things that needs to be considered when creating any sort of "come on over, this is great" sort of page, be it a FAQ or otherwise. I await some feedback from all of you. As most of you know (I hope) feedback that does not agree with my take is fine with me. I'll leave you all with this observation about life (at least my life, and I'll bet yours too): "I have never, ever, not once, learned anything from someone that agreed with me." If he agreed what was there to learn from him? Don. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Fri Apr 27 23:53:48 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> References: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <1942.192.168.1.1.1177732428.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Let me sleep on these e-mails. I like the thought on both of these e-mails. I will get back to you with my opinions. I know we can come up with a good plan, and I'm sure that some of us are willing to donate some help from our own servers for this effort. I know I am. Jacob > > Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have > a > Vista box up and running? > > One of the real problems I have, is that as all my systems are GNU/Linux > (I > left Windows behind quite some time ago), I really am hard pressed to > actually get into technical problems with Vista. > > I can read what information is available, and I can see the impossible > problem > presented in the "If you can't open it, you don't own it" aspect of any > proprietary software. > > And the underling problems with DRM are apparent as a simple exercise in > logic. > > The problem is "How do I explain to a Vista user, or prospective Vista > user, > exactly what Freedom his software lacks (and what freedoms he is giving up > by > using Vista), when I don't even use it at all?" > > That is a point by point issue that perhaps we could work on getting into > a > form that might reach "Joe Sixpack", or "Anonymous". > > Every time I get serious about explaining this, I see eyeballs glaze over. > Well what can I say, I am an engineer by training, a hacker by inclination > (not the hacker the news media has corrupted the honorable title into). > > So how do I reach the average end user? > > I don't believe it's a requirement to reach "Granny", she will come to it > on > her own, or go with whatever the family geek sets up for her. (I get all > my > 'old people' because either I am recommended, or they have had such a bad > experience with Windows that they are out searching for something better, > and > run across me). > > So long as it's set up for them, they are the easiest bunch I know of to > get > to be happy GNU/Linux users. Notice that I am in a de facto manner, simply > becoming a non evil Redmond for them. I have made it all work, from the > first > time they use it, I hold their hand as long as is needed, and am available > to > help (i.e.; fix it.) when they do have a problem. > > This is not "Joe Sixpack" gets a distro and tries to install it... > Games????? > where are games??? No Second Life! Why!! > > But then gaming is not often a big thing with my clients, maybe poker or > solitaire. Frozen Bubble is always a big hit. > > So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that > is > written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit > from > using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using > Vista. > > Why giving up some things that Microsoft is using to entice you (and > developers) with, is the right thing to do. And why it's going to > ultimately > benefit them to forgo some of those poisonous things. > > And the FAQ needs to be in easy to understand terms and verbiage. > > As Jacob and I not long ago discovered, what seems obvious to one person > (or > age group) may not be obvious at all to another. This is one of the things > that needs to be considered when creating any sort of "come on over, this > is > great" sort of page, be it a FAQ or otherwise. > > I await some feedback from all of you. > > As most of you know (I hope) feedback that does not agree with my take is > fine > with me. > > I'll leave you all with this observation about life (at least my life, and > I'll bet yours too): > > "I have never, ever, not once, learned anything from someone that agreed > with > me." If he agreed what was there to learn from him? > > Don. > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 00:14:13 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:14:13 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <1942.192.168.1.1.1177732428.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> <1942.192.168.1.1.1177732428.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: > > Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have > > a > > Vista box up and running? >From BadVista website: "With this campaign, we will ensure that each time reporters mention Vista, they will be comparing it not to Windows XP or Mac OS/X, but to gNewSense and other free software distributions. By making our criticisms from a place of freedom, we will ensure that comparisons focus on the ethical relationship between user and software ? not only on which system has the better graphical transparency or the superior benchmark performance." http://badvista.fsf.org/blog/article-from-the-fsf-bulletin Is there a table or something which we can use to compare operating systems side by side? Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group From mjj at syntaktisk.dk Sat Apr 28 03:28:21 2007 From: mjj at syntaktisk.dk (Morten Juhl Johansen) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 09:28:21 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: References: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> <1942.192.168.1.1.1177732428.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <4632F795.6080703@syntaktisk.dk> Koh Choon Lin wrote: >>> Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have >>> a >>> Vista box up and running? > >>From BadVista website: > > "With this campaign, we will ensure that each time reporters mention > Vista, they will be comparing it not to Windows XP or Mac OS/X, but to > gNewSense and other free software distributions. By making our > criticisms from a place of freedom, we will ensure that comparisons > focus on the ethical relationship between user and software ? not only > on which system has the better graphical transparency or the superior > benchmark performance." > > http://badvista.fsf.org/blog/article-from-the-fsf-bulletin > > Is there a table or something which we can use to compare operating > systems side by side? I found Yegulalp's recent article here > http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199201179&pgno=1&queryText= very useful. Now, Ubuntu may nit be the best example because of their passion for the proprietary bits, but I actually learned a few things from it. My wife has bought a Vista box. I have tried it, but it slows me down. I have only seen things on the surface, I haven't really powerplayed with it. One argument I found interesting, though, was her insisting on getting a Windows box, because she knows it; and there are just enough similarities in Vista to make it feel like Windows, so when it behaves completely different, she is caught off guard. For the same reason, she wishes she had bought an XP box. I had her use Pardus Linux, when I was playing with it, and she says changing to Vista and changing to Pardus is not much different. Yours, M __ http://www.syntaktisk.dk From jlp at holodeck1.com Sat Apr 28 08:13:11 2007 From: jlp at holodeck1.com (Jure Repinc) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:13:11 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? Message-ID: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> There is a very interesting discussion about Vista on CNet forums: http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7810_102-0.html?forumID=77&threadID=244924&start=0 It is a thread about a poll that asks When will you start using Windows Vista? Currently it looks like a lot of people don't like Windows Vista. Never: 22% When I'm forced to: 21% When Microsoft stops supporting XP: 16% I don't do Windows: 14% I'm already using it: 13% Maybe within the year: 6% After a year: 6% I'll upgrade soon: 2% Maybe it would be a good thing to tell people that there is another choice in GNU/Linux and that there are more dangers and restrictions behind the pretty face of Vista then they could ever imagine. -- JLP's Blog - http://jlp.holodeck1.com/blog/ From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 08:47:39 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:17:39 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: Hi all, It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about vista in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image out of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). As for interactive things i think java applets will be the answer. And if we can make the bad vista site look cool, I mean adding some stylish images. And the best thing to do will be to point out the BAD things about DRM in a horrible way ;) And when i read anonymouseh!'s comments i think that there is a great issue with the myth about device drivers ( I say this is a myth because he seems to be thinking that all the drivers for all the devices hould be configured). Actually the only problems are with wireless network cards, fingerprint devices and stuff like that. And another point is that the console, windows users (after using their childish command prompt) seems to be thinking of the console as an advanced, geeky thing (Now i can't live without the command line) so we must point out things like these and linux will conquer for sure. Let's make linux better :) Yasith On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > > Hi Jacob, > I think you have a good idea there, except that, so far as I know, > Shockwave > is closed proprietary software, possibly not the best thing for a > GNU/Linux > web site. > > I think we should, as the saying goes "Eat our own dog food". > > Adobe is talking about releasing the source for Flex and some of the SDK > tools, but it is not clear just when, nor exactly what license they may > use. > > Flex has a basic problem though, in that a web site developed in Flex > requires > some special ports to be open... a problem in and of it's self, for people > like me. And then the Flex platform is likely to sill require some non > free > software to actually deliver content. > > There are other ways of doing highly interactive stuff, but I think it > might > be best if they were developed on our own servers. > > The reason I say this is that for the FSF to grant people access to their > servers would no doubt be very problematic. They are not set up as a host, > as > in virtual hosting, and any access to the back end routines for serving > interactive pages would be very difficult for them (I think - John can > correct me if I've guessed wrong here). > > Have you any particular GNU /Linux Distro's in mind? > > I'd think one we should include by default, as it were, is gNewSense > http://www.gnewsense.org/ > > It allows you, among other things, to build your own Distro. > > Pretty cool, no? > > Don. > *************************************** > On Friday 27 April 2007 11:47 am, Jacob Maynard wrote: > Hello to all, > > I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about > it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused > direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in > a different way. > > My thoughts are that we need to provide more information about Linux on > the site that actually pertains to your average user. I think that a > "council" should decide a couple of distributions, focus on them, and > explain them in detail. My thoughts even went to creating interactive > tutorials via Shockwave, or something like that, to demonstrate what it > looks like to use Linux. Of course, this "council" could just be everyone > coming to a decision on all of this stuff. > > One of the major problems is that we need to get the "super-geek" image > out of everyone's head when the name Linux is mentioned. It needs to be > associated with everyone. > > I thought I'd throw this out there and get everyone's opinion on the > matter. If you have an opinion, please let me know. I have become quite > attuned to this issue in the last couple of days. > > Jacob > > > Hi guys, > > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to > answer > > some questions. the link for that post is > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > > > cheers > > -- > > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > > > > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > > > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/e0ba5848/attachment.htm From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 08:58:27 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:58:27 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about vista > in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image out > of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky > distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). Maybe we can have screenshots of gNewSense and compare them with Vista at the website? Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 09:04:11 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:34:11 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: Yeah screenshots comparing vista and linux (screenshots with Beryl) will be good. Great idea Koh Choon we'll need ideas like these. So everyone speak up and give your ideas :) maybe we can have links to the amazing beryl videos at youtube too :P or play them in the site cheers On 4/28/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about > vista > > in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image > out > > of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky > > distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). > > Maybe we can have screenshots of gNewSense and compare them with Vista > at the website? > > > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/dfe3454b/attachment-0001.htm From foetsch at yahoo.com Sat Apr 28 09:39:19 2007 From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners Message-ID: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Don Hensley wrote: > So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that is > written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit from > using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using > Vista. I'm all for it. How do we go about this? Having written lots of "executive summaries" myself, to make technical complexities appear less complex to managers, I think I'd be able to contribute to this effort. If it's possible to explain to a project manager what an "API" is, it should be quite easy to explain to a Windows user what a "GNU/Linux" is. Here are a few more ideas, that I think would go well with what you suggested: - It's very likely that those people who are going to visit the site at all have heard about GNU/Linux before. What they probably heard was that it's only for hackers; that it's hard to install; that in order to install applications, you need to compile them; that the console is the only user interface. You know, all these horror stories from the 90s. ("I tried SuSE 1.0 ten years ago and it crashed. I'm not willing to try GNU/Linux again.") What we need: Get rid of the myths and show the state of affairs in 2007. - If someone shows the willingness to give GNU/Linux a try, we need to show them how to do this. It wouldn't be wise for us to try to maintain GNU/Linux installation instructions ourselves, but we can point visitors to the information that is already available elsewhere on the web. What we need: Provide instructions for how to start using GNU/Linux, and show that it *is* possible to migrate your data from Windows/Mac to GNU/Linux. - Have plenty of freedom talk, as this is what's unique about the BadVista approach. We shouldn't (only) talk about saving money, or about the technical merits of the Unix heritage. What we need: Pointers to free software philosophy on the web. In my opinion, it would be very useful to have a wiki of some sort, which we can use to collect ideas and to prepare the drafts. I also think that the actual FAQ page shouldn't be the wiki itself, but that it should be a polished and edited version of the wiki. This gives us a chance to try out ideas freely, while not scaring off readers with unfinished material. (Sending drafts back and forth through the mailing list would work, but it's far from efficient.) How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and effort? Could BadVista host this? Kind Regards, M.F. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From news at adolflam.com Sat Apr 28 09:56:43 2007 From: news at adolflam.com (news@adolflam.com) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> Message-ID: <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Hello, One thing about Windows users is that most of them arent to that level of computing that they would be interested in geek topics on computer OS, even if they even bother to visit such forum at the first place. So, I wouldn't say the data is reliable. Windows is still making big, we wouldn't become compliacent =) --- Lam YongXian Adolf Lam @ www.adolflam.com > There is a very interesting discussion about Vista on CNet forums: > > http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7810_102-0.html?forumID=77&threadID=244924&start=0 > > It is a thread about a poll that asks When will you start using Windows > Vista? Currently it looks like a lot of people don't like Windows Vista. > > Never: 22% > When I'm forced to: 21% > When Microsoft stops supporting XP: 16% > I don't do Windows: 14% > I'm already using it: 13% > Maybe within the year: 6% > After a year: 6% > I'll upgrade soon: 2% > > Maybe it would be a good thing to tell people that there is another > choice in GNU/Linux and that there are more dangers and restrictions > behind the pretty face of Vista then they could ever imagine. > > -- > JLP's Blog - http://jlp.holodeck1.com/blog/ > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 10:04:35 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:04:35 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: > One thing about Windows users is that most of them arent to that level of > computing that they would be interested in geek topics on computer OS, > even if they even bother to visit such forum at the first place. I believe the reason why the FSF started the BadVista campaign is due to a possible "sudden mass reduction of software freedom" if Vista is adopted by the public and this is a real socio-political issue about demanding for freedom, which everyone should be concerned about, rather than about geek-ness. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt Sat Apr 28 11:03:57 2007 From: nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt (Nuno J. Silva) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:03:57 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <20070428160357.675e424c@localhost> On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:17:39 +0530 "Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi" wrote: > Hi all, > > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about > vista in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the > geeky image out of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an > introduction to non-geeky distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, > Ubuntu, Kubuntu). That'd be good, but we should drop SUSE from the list, as Novell is now linked to Microsoft. > > As for interactive things i think java applets will be the answer. > And if we can make the bad vista site look cool, I mean adding some > stylish images. And the best thing to do will be to point out the BAD > things about DRM in a horrible way ;) If java is going to be used, please create also alternative HTML pages for the applets. > > And when i read anonymouseh!'s comments i think that there is a great > issue with the myth about device drivers ( I say this is a myth > because he seems to be thinking that all the drivers for all the > devices hould be configured). Actually the only problems are with > wireless network cards, fingerprint devices and stuff like that. I think that there are more hardware issues with windows than with GNU/Linux: the drivers which are already in the kernel are prepared to meet a quality level which is much more stable than the windows drivers, because the windows ones are not bundled with the OS kernel, and as the opposite happens with Linux, that results in better, safer and more stable drivers. And with open drivers, GNU/linux developers may develop frontends which are able to deal with several hardware pieces with simillar or equal features. In windows we can see this in TWAIN, but it still needs a software layer which depends on the manufacturer (in linux SANE provides backends and the frontend is the same). So my point of view is that after all, who wins in the drivers issues is GNU/Linux. Just look for hardware with *open* linux drivers and you'll have something which works better in GNU/Linux than in windows. > > And another point is that the console, windows users (after using > their childish command prompt) seems to be thinking of the console as > an advanced, geeky thing (Now i can't live without the command line) > so we must point out things like these and linux will conquer for > sure. That thing which had no tab-completion until windows 5.0? :-) A comparation between that toy and *n?x shells is a must-have. -- Nuno J. Silva Lisbon, Portugal Homepage: & Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org Using Claws Mail 2.9.0 Gentoo Base System release 1.12.9 Linux 2.6.17-gentoo-r7 i686 Pentium II (Deschutes) -=-=- Arithmetic is being able to count up to twenty without taking off your shoes. -- Mickey Mouse -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/4e705d56/signature.pgp From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 11:23:59 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:23:59 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <20070428160357.675e424c@localhost> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> <20070428160357.675e424c@localhost> Message-ID: > > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about > > vista in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the > > geeky image out of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an > > introduction to non-geeky distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, > > Ubuntu, Kubuntu). > > That'd be good, but we should drop SUSE from the list, as Novell is now > linked to Microsoft. Actually, I am in favor of dropping all of them since none is an ethically free distribution. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From hom.sepanta at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 11:24:53 2007 From: hom.sepanta at gmail.com (Mostafa Razavi) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:54:53 +0330 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: <46336745.2080305@gmail.com> > I believe the reason why the FSF started the BadVista campaign is due > to a possible "sudden mass reduction of software freedom" if Vista is > adopted by the public and this is a real socio-political issue about > demanding for freedom, which everyone should be concerned about, > rather than about geek-ness. > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > I agree with you. And Vista adoption basically means the industry can integrate DRM and Trusted Computing into the hardware and software more than before; and this is going to affect everyone, including the users of free software operating systems. In fact, I guess this is the major reason for which one might bother participating in the campaign. Homayoon From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 12:12:05 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:12:05 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704280912y63d882fdq1ecfe6d363b22055@mail.gmail.com> I have an oem copy of Windows Vista home available (that I wiped from my hard drive the minute I got the machine) if somebody wants it. You can send me a S.A.S.E.. Email me for my addy In Solidarity, Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Michael F?tsch wrote: > Don Hensley wrote: > > So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that is > > written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit from > > using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using > > Vista. > > I'm all for it. How do we go about this? > > Having written lots of "executive summaries" myself, to make technical complexities appear less complex to managers, I think I'd be able to contribute to this effort. If it's possible to explain to a project manager what an "API" is, it should be quite easy to explain to a Windows user what a "GNU/Linux" is. > > Here are a few more ideas, that I think would go well with what you suggested: > - It's very likely that those people who are going to visit the site at all have heard about GNU/Linux before. What they probably heard was that it's only for hackers; that it's hard to install; that in order to install applications, you need to compile them; that the console is the only user interface. You know, all these horror stories from the 90s. ("I tried SuSE 1.0 ten years ago and it crashed. I'm not willing to try GNU/Linux again.") > > What we need: Get rid of the myths and show the state of affairs in 2007. > > - If someone shows the willingness to give GNU/Linux a try, we need to show them how to do this. It wouldn't be wise for us to try to maintain GNU/Linux installation instructions ourselves, but we can point visitors to the information that is already available elsewhere on the web. > > What we need: Provide instructions for how to start using GNU/Linux, and show that it *is* possible to migrate your data from Windows/Mac to GNU/Linux. > > - Have plenty of freedom talk, as this is what's unique about the BadVista approach. We shouldn't (only) talk about saving money, or about the technical merits of the Unix heritage. > > What we need: Pointers to free software philosophy on the web. > > > In my opinion, it would be very useful to have a wiki of some sort, which we can use to collect ideas and to prepare the drafts. I also think that the actual FAQ page shouldn't be the wiki itself, but that it should be a polished and edited version of the wiki. This gives us a chance to try out ideas freely, while not scaring off readers with unfinished material. > > (Sending drafts back and forth through the mailing list would work, but it's far from efficient.) > > > How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and effort? Could BadVista host this? > > Kind Regards, > M.F. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 13:05:23 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:05:23 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" Message-ID: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> Please correct this ridiculous notion: http://texyt.com/Microsoft+bets+Windows+Vista+fewer+bugs+than+XP+066 Don't let Microsoft brainwash the media! Comrade Ringo Kamens From sunnzy at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 13:28:33 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 03:28:33 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea Message-ID: You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free software video. All the current free software activities are good per se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to read through the stuff on badvista. So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: ======================================= Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their parents work at day. One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB says. Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the restrictive things, and was free forever. ======================================= Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around with it.... i think it would be beneficial if some kind of video can metaphorically explain to the general public, and these days with the high bandwidth internet and stream video, it isn't so hard to distribute the video, especially if it is creative and entertaining, and lots of people has done it like Apple, Sun Microsystems, and even Google, so yea. -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 13:36:41 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:36:41 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3922422b0704281036k24fad1e7je406f4bad919a3ad@mail.gmail.com> Here are a few to get ideas from also: http://showusthecode.com/alternatives.htm In Solidarity, Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Sunnz wrote: > You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? > > Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they > holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free > software video. All the current free software activities are good per > se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, > and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to > read through the stuff on badvista. > > So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: > > ======================================= > Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be > doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their > parents work at day. > > One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command > how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can > imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't > like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB > says. > > Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a > beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and > the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother > and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family > as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should > work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. > > Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the > restrictive things, and was free forever. > ======================================= > > Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has > potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around with it.... > > i think it would be beneficial if some kind of video can > metaphorically explain to the general public, and these days with the > high bandwidth internet and stream video, it isn't so hard to > distribute the video, especially if it is creative and entertaining, > and lots of people has done it like Apple, Sun Microsystems, and even > Google, so yea. > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From shroomling at googlemail.com Sat Apr 28 13:37:00 2007 From: shroomling at googlemail.com (Wayne Moore) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:37:00 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92448cdd0704281037o46a29ff7s4572b9bb2443bcf4@mail.gmail.com> I think that's a great idea, which reminded me of a few Mac vs PC spoofs that Novell did with GNU/Linux added into the mix. Here they are for those of you who haven't seen them [warning, flash required]: Spoof 1 Spoof 2 Spoof 3 laterz wayne On 28/04/07, Sunnz wrote: > > You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? > > Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they > holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free > software video. All the current free software activities are good per > se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, > and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to > read through the stuff on badvista. > > So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: > > ======================================= > Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be > doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their > parents work at day. > > One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command > how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can > imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't > like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB > says. > > Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a > beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and > the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother > and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family > as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should > work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. > > Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the > restrictive things, and was free forever. > ======================================= > > Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has > potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around with it.... > > i think it would be beneficial if some kind of video can > metaphorically explain to the general public, and these days with the > high bandwidth internet and stream video, it isn't so hard to > distribute the video, especially if it is creative and entertaining, > and lots of people has done it like Apple, Sun Microsystems, and even > Google, so yea. > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/4e0527c4/attachment.htm From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 14:19:24 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 02:19:24 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <92448cdd0704281037o46a29ff7s4572b9bb2443bcf4@mail.gmail.com> References: <92448cdd0704281037o46a29ff7s4572b9bb2443bcf4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Spoof 1 > Spoof 2 > Spoof 3 Youtube would require non-free software to view.. ogg are available but they made the mistake of calling GNU as linux. http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux.OGG http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux_2.OGG http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux_3.OGG Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From shroomling at googlemail.com Sat Apr 28 14:29:49 2007 From: shroomling at googlemail.com (Wayne Moore) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 19:29:49 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: <92448cdd0704281037o46a29ff7s4572b9bb2443bcf4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <92448cdd0704281129u40457e28g269bbd3160ef6467@mail.gmail.com> You're absolutely right, my bad :-/ Thanks for the OGG links. laterz wayne On 28/04/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > > Spoof 1 > > Spoof 2 > > Spoof 3 > > Youtube would require non-free software to view.. ogg are available > but they made the mistake of calling GNU as linux. > > http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux.OGG > http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux_2.OGG > http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux_3.OGG > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/64ede41a/attachment.htm From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sat Apr 28 15:12:22 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I'm for it. I would be willing to bet that with all of us chiming in on wanting to help with the BadVista site, BadVista wouldn't have any problems helping out. I see you have already defined your position in this effort. That's outstanding. We need to cover some basic areas on this one: 1. Games - Cover the games that are out there and which run natively on GNU/Linux, and cover which ones run with WinE. But this is going to be the toughest selling point because there's not a huge push for games on GNU/Linux with the same reputation as major video games on Windows and the XBox/PS. 2. Productivity - Obviously OpenOffice.org is on the list. We can include StarOffice, if anyone thinks it is worth mentioning while we are presenting it to the users. The biggest thing that we need to focus on is agreeing on standards. Thunderbird or Evolution for e-mail, even though I think that most of us use Evolution. GNUCash should be included, too. 3. Multimedia - Our distribution should have support for all of this already, or an easy place to download a binary codec package. This is almost as big as the games, if not more so. More advanced areas we can work on may include the command line. You don't want to start off with the command line, though. That's where people say, "Umm, I have something else to do." I know that most of us can't live without the command prompt, but your average user is intimidated by it. Sorry, Yasith. You can't just open them up right off of the bat to this. So I guess that the question should come up; are we intending on creating a distribution of our own that includes all of this support, or are we going to decide on a distribution collectively. I've heard gNewSense, and from the short amount of reading I've done on it, this is creating our own distro. Can we clarify and take a vote on this? This should come second to the website, though. More later. Jacob > Don Hensley wrote: >> So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ >> that is >> written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit >> from >> using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using >> Vista. > > I'm all for it. How do we go about this? > > Having written lots of "executive summaries" myself, to make technical > complexities appear less complex to managers, I think I'd be able to > contribute to this effort. If it's possible to explain to a project > manager what an "API" is, it should be quite easy to explain to a Windows > user what a "GNU/Linux" is. > > Here are a few more ideas, that I think would go well with what you > suggested: > - It's very likely that those people who are going to visit the site at > all have heard about GNU/Linux before. What they probably heard was that > it's only for hackers; that it's hard to install; that in order to install > applications, you need to compile them; that the console is the only user > interface. You know, all these horror stories from the 90s. ("I tried SuSE > 1.0 ten years ago and it crashed. I'm not willing to try GNU/Linux > again.") > > What we need: Get rid of the myths and show the state of affairs in 2007. > > - If someone shows the willingness to give GNU/Linux a try, we need to > show them how to do this. It wouldn't be wise for us to try to maintain > GNU/Linux installation instructions ourselves, but we can point visitors > to the information that is already available elsewhere on the web. > > What we need: Provide instructions for how to start using GNU/Linux, and > show that it *is* possible to migrate your data from Windows/Mac to > GNU/Linux. > > - Have plenty of freedom talk, as this is what's unique about the BadVista > approach. We shouldn't (only) talk about saving money, or about the > technical merits of the Unix heritage. > > What we need: Pointers to free software philosophy on the web. > > > In my opinion, it would be very useful to have a wiki of some sort, which > we can use to collect ideas and to prepare the drafts. I also think that > the actual FAQ page shouldn't be the wiki itself, but that it should be a > polished and edited version of the wiki. This gives us a chance to try out > ideas freely, while not scaring off readers with unfinished material. > > (Sending drafts back and forth through the mailing list would work, but > it's far from efficient.) > > > How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and > effort? Could BadVista host this? > > Kind Regards, > M.F. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 15:28:19 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 03:28:19 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: Dear all I feel that, when advocating for BadVista, we must not recommend another proprietary software to replace Vista! That would be just as bad. I have a rather ambitious idea to expand the BadVista campaign, maybe we can setup a gratis CDs shipping service for gNewSense a la ShipIt of Canonical? Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 15:42:19 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:42:19 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704281242s5789b603l1754690a5eef88ba@mail.gmail.com> I would be willing to contribute $10 to a shipit for gnewsense Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > Dear all > > I feel that, when advocating for BadVista, we must not recommend > another proprietary software to replace Vista! That would be just as > bad. > > I have a rather ambitious idea to expand the BadVista campaign, maybe > we can setup a gratis CDs shipping service for gNewSense a la ShipIt > of Canonical? > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt Sat Apr 28 15:44:54 2007 From: nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt (Nuno J. Silva) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:44:54 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <20070428204454.20c382f6@localhost> On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:12:22 -0400 (EDT) "Jacob Maynard" wrote: > I'm for it. I would be willing to bet that with all of us chiming in > on wanting to help with the BadVista site, BadVista wouldn't have any > problems helping out. > > I see you have already defined your position in this effort. That's > outstanding. > > We need to cover some basic areas on this one: > 1. Games - Cover the games that are out there and which run natively > on GNU/Linux, and cover which ones run with WinE. But this is going > to be the toughest selling point because there's not a huge push for > games on GNU/Linux with the same reputation as major video games on > Windows and the XBox/PS. A section about console emulators (PS, NES, SNES, GameCube, XBox, etc) would be interesting too. > 2. Productivity - Obviously OpenOffice.org is on the list. We can > include StarOffice, if anyone thinks it is worth mentioning while we > are presenting it to the users. The biggest thing that we need to > focus on is agreeing on standards. Thunderbird or Evolution for > e-mail, even though I think that most of us use Evolution. GNUCash > should be included, too. IMO StarOffice shouldn't be included, it isn't FLOSS. For email, claws mail would be on the list too. And please include (La)TeX and The GIMP. > 3. Multimedia - Our distribution should have > support for all of this already, or an easy place to download a > binary codec package. This is almost as big as the games, if not more > so. Video edition software may be another big point. > > More advanced areas we can work on may include the command line. You > don't want to start off with the command line, though. That's where > people say, "Umm, I have something else to do." I know that most of > us can't live without the command prompt, but your average user is > intimidated by it. Sorry, Yasith. You can't just open them up right > off of the bat to this. If there isn't already one, an introduction to all *n?x shells (or maybe one introduction per shell) would do it. > So I guess that the question should come up; are we intending on > creating a distribution of our own that includes all of this support, > or are we going to decide on a distribution collectively. I've heard > gNewSense, and from the short amount of reading I've done on it, this > is creating our own distro. Can we clarify and take a vote on this? > This should come second to the website, though. Something which is lightweight, fast, and includes only free software (and, if needed, open source software - I don't know what would be the FSF position about this, since OS is not the same as FS), the free software we specify here, will fit. But some technical decisions must be taken. The work of building a distro from zero and widespread it implies building package repositories and a compatible and lightweight package manager. It is easier to pick an existing package system and use it (Debian's system and apt-get, Gentoo Portage and Paludis, &c). -- Nuno J. Silva Lisbon, Portugal Homepage: & Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org Using Claws Mail 2.9.0 Gentoo Base System release 1.12.9 Linux 2.6.17-gentoo-r7 i686 Pentium II (Deschutes) -=-=- ?In all recorded history there has not been one economist who has had to worry about where the next meal would come from.? -- Peter S. Drucker, who invented management -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/ec5e94ff/signature.pgp From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sat Apr 28 16:58:26 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista, specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable? Jacob > You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? > > Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they > holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free > software video. All the current free software activities are good per > se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, > and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to > read through the stuff on badvista. > > So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: > > ======================================= > Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be > doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their > parents work at day. > > One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command > how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can > imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't > like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB > says. > > Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a > beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and > the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother > and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family > as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should > work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. > > Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the > restrictive things, and was free forever. > ======================================= > > Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has > potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around