From johns at fsf.org Wed Apr 18 17:12:35 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:12:35 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] First post d00d! Message-ID: <87y7kpfku4.fsf@spider.localnet> Testing. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 02:34:19 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:04:19 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] I wrote an article Message-ID: I posted an article on my blog to raise the awareness about BAD vista movement. You can check it from this link http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html Just doing my service for the Free Softwear World. cheers -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070419/1fcad835/attachment.htm From 2600denver at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 10:08:41 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:08:41 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] I wrote an article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3922422b0704190708t1afaebf5kd9a84115b9b50eb2@mail.gmail.com> Props. I also wrote one coming up in Linux+ magazine (lpmagazine.org/en) Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/19/07, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: > I posted an article on my blog to raise the awareness about BAD vista > movement. You can check it from this link > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > Just doing my service for the Free Softwear World. cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > From johns at fsf.org Fri Apr 20 13:12:59 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:12:59 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New post: Support government moves away from Vista Message-ID: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> Please help get the word out about this: http://badvista.fsf.org/blog/support-governments-moving-away-from-windows-vista-and-toward-free-software http://digg.com/software/Support_moves_by_governments_away_from_Vista_and_toward_free_software/blog http://del.icio.us/url/83484d7a1c0456c83a5f55eb7f86e58b If you post this to any other place where people can vote for it, please let the list know! Thanks, -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From johns at fsf.org Fri Apr 20 13:55:35 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:55:35 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New post: Support government moves away from Vista In-Reply-To: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> (John Sullivan's message of "Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:12:59 -0400") References: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <87irbrrkvc.fsf@spider.localnet> Here's a reddit link for this article too: http://reddit.com/info/1jkv6/comments -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From jlp at holodeck1.com Fri Apr 20 15:27:28 2007 From: jlp at holodeck1.com (Jure Repinc) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:27:28 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New post: Support government moves away from Vista In-Reply-To: <87irbrrkvc.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> <87irbrrkvc.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <46291420.2050600@holodeck1.com> John Sullivan pravi: > Here's a reddit link for this article too: > > http://reddit.com/info/1jkv6/comments http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/badvista.fsf.org/blog/support-governments-moving-away-from-windows-vista-and-toward-free-software I've also added it to Stumble Upon. -- JLP's Blog - http://jlp.holodeck1.com/blog/ From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Fri Apr 20 15:30:00 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:30:00 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] New post: Support government moves away from Vista In-Reply-To: <46291420.2050600@holodeck1.com> References: <87irbrt1es.fsf@spider.localnet> <87irbrrkvc.fsf@spider.localnet> <46291420.2050600@holodeck1.com> Message-ID: <462914B8.2000002@binaryfreedom.info> thanks for helping us! Chris Fernandez http://www.binaryfreedom.info Jure Repinc wrote: > John Sullivan pravi: > >> Here's a reddit link for this article too: >> >> http://reddit.com/info/1jkv6/comments >> > > http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/badvista.fsf.org/blog/support-governments-moving-away-from-windows-vista-and-toward-free-software > > I've also added it to Stumble Upon. > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070420/f179c8b9/rek2.vcf From bradleyp at juno.com Sun Apr 22 22:47:05 2007 From: bradleyp at juno.com (bradleyp@juno.com) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:47:05 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Admits Vista Failure - News story by the Inquirer Message-ID: <20070422.194705.3356.2.bradleyp@juno.com> Microsoft doesn't literally admit that Vista is a failure, but their actions are of a nature that suggests they are in a damage control mode. One of the problems is that OEM's like Dell have backpedaled on a total commitment to Vista in favor of XP. http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39087 Spread the word!! Brad From jlp at holodeck1.com Mon Apr 23 00:42:47 2007 From: jlp at holodeck1.com (Jure Repinc) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 06:42:47 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Admits Vista Failure - News story by the Inquirer In-Reply-To: <20070422.194705.3356.2.bradleyp@juno.com> References: <20070422.194705.3356.2.bradleyp@juno.com> Message-ID: <462C3947.6050700@holodeck1.com> bradleyp at juno.com pravi: > Microsoft doesn't literally admit that Vista is a failure, but their > actions are of a nature that suggests they are in a damage control mode. > One of the problems is that OEM's like Dell have backpedaled on a total > commitment to Vista in favor of XP. > > http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39087 > > Spread the word!! People are already spreading the word here: http://digg.com/microsoft/Microsoft_admits_Vista_failure http://reddit.com/info/1jrhp/comments http://del.icio.us/url/d8d04b30a0b78931d856cb400619672c http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/theinquirer.net/default.aspx%3Farticle=39087 Help them out! -- JLP's Blog - http://jlp.holodeck1.com/blog/ From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 07:06:12 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:12 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog Message-ID: Hi guys, I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer some questions. the link for that post is http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html cheers -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070424/6659f778/attachment.htm From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 10:47:09 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:47:09 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> Yasith, As I also posted on your blog: Sometimes it's best not to feed trolls. After a honest endeavor to explain something to some one, it sometimes becomes apparent that they are not interested in anything except causing problems, and that they had no intention of either learning, or teaching anyone anything. They exist simply for the attention they believe they get by behaving badly. So the best thing to do, once you have identified such a person, is to simply ignore them. Ignoring them denies them the very thing they are trying to get --feedback which they need to justify their own existence. It's OK to feel sympathy for such people, but what they truly need is psychiatric help. So just do your best to spread the word about what a disaster Vista is, and accept the fact that in doing so you will occasionally run across such people. Keep up the good work, spread the word, ignore the trolls. D. Hensley -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org *************************************************** On Tuesday 24 April 2007 04:06 am, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: Hi guys, I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer some questions. the link for that post is http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html cheers From johns at fsf.org Tue Apr 24 11:25:51 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:25:51 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> (Don Hensley's message of "Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:47:09 -0700") References: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> Don Hensley writes: > Sometimes it's best not to feed trolls. I also don't think that it's the best idea to attack people for being anonymous. Many free software supporters support the ability to be anonymous on the net. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 11:33:51 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:33:51 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <200704240833.51528.Don@donhensley.com> Good catch John. I should have mentioned that myself, being a great believer in the concept of anonymous voting, which I personally equate with anonymous posting. An absolutely vital ingredient for a healthy society is the ability to make your thoughts know, without fear of repercussion. Thanks, Don. **************** On Tuesday 24 April 2007 08:25 am, John Sullivan wrote: Don Hensley writes: > Sometimes it's best not to feed trolls. I also don't think that it's the best idea to attack people for being anonymous. Many free software supporters support the ability to be anonymous on the net. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 11:44:48 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:44:48 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <200704240747.09887.Don@donhensley.com> <87lkghg5fk.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <200704240844.48247.Don@donhensley.com> Sigh, Now writing 100 times on blackboard, "know, is different from known, I will pay more attention to reviewing my writing before hitting the send button." Tearing hair out and searching for more chalk, Don. **************** On Tuesday 24 April 2007 08:25 am, John Sullivan wrote: Don Hensley writes: > Sometimes it's best not to feed trolls. I also don't think that it's the best idea to attack people for being anonymous. Many free software supporters support the ability to be anonymous on the net. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From PPBoy828 at aol.com Tue Apr 24 13:18:04 2007 From: PPBoy828 at aol.com (PPBoy828@aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:18:04 EDT Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog Message-ID: My blog, as well: _All Tech_ (http://alltech828.blogspot.com/) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070424/57bad6b8/attachment.htm From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Tue Apr 24 15:53:37 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Gentlemen, Let's remember that we are not trying to turn this into a battle over whose is better than whose regardless of facts. We can't let it turn into a name-calling battle, either. If you have questions, there are sure to be plenty of people here to help. Thank you, Yasith for asking for help. We can't just let the "trolls" be ignored in blogs, though. What we need is to show them the ways that they are wrong with hard proof. I've seen the DRM slides. There's more proof like that out there. We need it to be publicized. We need to combat the "trolls" with tact. Keep up the good work. Jacob > Hi guys, > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer > some questions. the link for that post is > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Tue Apr 24 16:01:31 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:01:31 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <462E621B.60608@binaryfreedom.info> I agree with Jacob. sometimes is better to show the evidence. Chris Fernandez Founder of BinaryFreedom http://www.binaryfreedom.info Jacob Maynard wrote: > Gentlemen, > > Let's remember that we are not trying to turn this into a battle over > whose is better than whose regardless of facts. We can't let it turn into > a name-calling battle, either. If you have questions, there are sure to be > plenty of people here to help. Thank you, Yasith for asking for help. > > We can't just let the "trolls" be ignored in blogs, though. What we need > is to show them the ways that they are wrong with hard proof. I've seen > the DRM slides. There's more proof like that out there. We need it to be > publicized. We need to combat the "trolls" with tact. > > Keep up the good work. > > Jacob > > > >> Hi guys, >> I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my >> blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much >> thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post >> answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer >> some questions. the link for that post is >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html >> >> cheers >> -- >> \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ >> .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ >> |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070424/2611c35c/rek2.vcf From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 16:12:01 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:12:01 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> I really hope that was not the way you took my comment about trolls. I meant it in exactly the way a troll is defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll "In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding." I did say that one should first make every effort possible, at least that is what I meant by; " After a honest endeavor to explain something to some one, it sometimes becomes apparent that they are not interested in anything except causing problems, and that they had no intention of either learning, or teaching anyone anything." After reading the comments on Yasith's blog, I thought I detected a troll at work. Possibly I was wrong, and it is good that some of you have more patience then I. But at some point we all are going to be faced with a troll, and when that point arrives I think my advice is sound. But we each must decide at what point our efforts are being spent feeding the troll, instead of helping a person. All in all a rather subjective point I'd say. BTW, BinaryFreedom is a really great site. D. Hensley. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org ********************************************** On Tuesday 24 April 2007 12:53 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: Gentlemen, Let's remember that we are not trying to turn this into a battle over whose is better than whose regardless of facts. We can't let it turn into a name-calling battle, either. If you have questions, there are sure to be plenty of people here to help. Thank you, Yasith for asking for help. We can't just let the "trolls" be ignored in blogs, though. What we need is to show them the ways that they are wrong with hard proof. I've seen the DRM slides. There's more proof like that out there. We need it to be publicized. We need to combat the "trolls" with tact. Keep up the good work. Jacob > Hi guys, > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer > some questions. the link for that post is > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Tue Apr 24 16:26:35 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> References: <50905.138.162.128.38.1177444417.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Even though I didn't take the comment that way, it's something we have to watch for. If we don't we sound like the little kids in the back seat on a long road trip. I just think that since we are trying to convince the general public to switch to open source, I think that we need to maintain our maturity and beware not to let it fall to that level. The trolls will say their things, but we can't let questions go unanswered. Does that make sense? I don't want there to be a question from someone who is obviously baiting, and have it be the question of someone who is legitimately looking for answers, then not have it answered. So once you beat them with proof, they will resort to the little kid in the back seat. As long as our answers are legitimate, people will know that the "trolls" lost. If we get two or three trolls actively throwing stuff out like that, and we have even 8 of us actively countering with proof, we still will have enough people and brainpower to thwart them. This is what the general public will see. Publicity is just politics. If you play it right, people will go with you. Then they will learn that it is better for them in the long run. Jacob > > I really hope that was not the way you took my comment about trolls. > > I meant it in exactly the way a troll is defined here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll > > "In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts > derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an > established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait > users > into responding." > > I did say that one should first make every effort possible, at least that > is > what I meant by; > > " After a honest endeavor to explain something to some one, it sometimes > becomes apparent that they are not interested in anything except causing > problems, and that they had no intention of either learning, or teaching > anyone anything." > > After reading the comments on Yasith's blog, I thought I detected a troll > at > work. Possibly I was wrong, and it is good that some of you have more > patience then I. > > But at some point we all are going to be faced with a troll, and when that > point arrives I think my advice is sound. > > But we each must decide at what point our efforts are being spent feeding > the > troll, instead of helping a person. > > All in all a rather subjective point I'd say. > > BTW, BinaryFreedom is a really great site. > > D. Hensley. > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > ********************************************** > On Tuesday 24 April 2007 12:53 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > Gentlemen, > > Let's remember that we are not trying to turn this into a battle over > whose is better than whose regardless of facts. We can't let it turn into > a name-calling battle, either. If you have questions, there are sure to be > plenty of people here to help. Thank you, Yasith for asking for help. > > We can't just let the "trolls" be ignored in blogs, though. What we need > is to show them the ways that they are wrong with hard proof. I've seen > the DRM slides. There's more proof like that out there. We need it to be > publicized. We need to combat the "trolls" with tact. > > Keep up the good work. > > Jacob > >> Hi guys, >> I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my >> blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much >> thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post >> answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to >> answer >> some questions. the link for that post is >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html >> >> cheers >> -- >> \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ >> .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ >> >> |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| >> >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Tue Apr 24 18:22:45 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:22:45 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704241522.45267.Don@donhensley.com> An interesting take on things. A view I had not considered - at least not for a very long time. Lets see if I have this right, or at least passably close. I suspect you view it as being a sort of competition - almost a sporting event, for the spectators on the sidelines, as it were. It's not about the troll (if such he be), but rather to show other readers that he is wrong, so they will not go away feeling that the trolls questions were not answered, and by association feeling that all us "geeky, nerd, coder types" are not very helpful, and GNU/Linux is not for them. Mostly because the spectator may not know about trolls and such, and therefore needs to be clear about the points you are making about Free Software. Did I get that about right? Now please believe me, I am not trolling here. The thing is that I'm almost 70 years old, and while I grew up with this industry, or more accurately this industry grew up with me --in truth I helped build some of it. I also am well aware that the future does not belong to me. This just means that I also may have a considerable different take on some things - not necessarily the 'right' or 'only' take, just one that goes with my personal experiences. So this is a very serious question --I'm just trying to see if I understand your point. If I have got it right, then it is an interesting way to look at it, and I will want to think about that method. Off the top I think it is probably very accurate and applicable to today's users. But it would be unlikely to sway me much (as one of the 'spectators'). That's what I meant about patience. For me, after the third or fourth "Asked and Answered", with each side becoming more heated, I lose all interest in what ever the subject was. And just read no further. Which means that from that point on, anything anyone posts is lost to me anyway, because I'm long gone (me, or any 'spectator' that feels the way I do). But I think that I can (dimly) remember a time that I might not have felt that way --I would probably have been in there trying to make my point that way also. Now I just do it differently, and it works quite well for me. But I suspect... well I know, that I deal with a considerably different set of prospective new to GNU/Linux converts, or potential converts, then most of you do. I know this because while I still build and install computer systems, retirement has the advantage of allowing me to only do 100% GNU/Linux systems. I just refuse to work on, install, or fix, anything else. So far --this year-- I've installed 14 GNU/Linux systems for people, the youngest of which was 59 years old, the oldest is 83 (the person, not the system ;). These are all GNU/Linux only users, no dual boot, or second computers running Windows. Some had an old Windows box first, and some are brand new to all this computer/Internet stuff. I'm positive not one of them even knows what a blog is (they may learn - or not, hard to say). But they would all recognize and ignore a troll, even if they would not use the term 'troll' to describe such a person. So my approach is different. Not better, just different. And there is one other little thing my 'old' users do, that I think has value. They tend to be the people that buy the computers for grand-kids, etc. and you know what system they will expect to be on the grand-kids box. Yep, the system they understand --which won't be Windows. I've been doing this for enough years now to have some of my 'people' from years past starting to taste the anger, when they find out they can't simply buy a box with GNU/Linux pre-installed for a son, or daughter, or one of the grand-kids. For them the taste is bitter, for me their anger has the sweet taste of success at achieving my underlying goal. And twice as sweet because this is beginning to change, soon finding a GNU/Linux pre-installed system may be as easy as phoning Dell (or whatever major player that is smart enough to get on the GNU/Linux bandwagon). While it may not (yet) be pure GNU/Linux, it will be a big step towards that goal. We will 'win' this war, as long as we all work at it as best we can. So keep workin' at it, any way you can. That's what I plan to do for as long as I can. D. Hensley -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org ******************************************* On Tuesday 24 April 2007 01:26 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: Even though I didn't take the comment that way, it's something we have to watch for. If we don't we sound like the little kids in the back seat on a long road trip. I just think that since we are trying to convince the general public to switch to open source, I think that we need to maintain our maturity and beware not to let it fall to that level. The trolls will say their things, but we can't let questions go unanswered. Does that make sense? I don't want there to be a question from someone who is obviously baiting, and have it be the question of someone who is legitimately looking for answers, then not have it answered. So once you beat them with proof, they will resort to the little kid in the back seat. As long as our answers are legitimate, people will know that the "trolls" lost. If we get two or three trolls actively throwing stuff out like that, and we have even 8 of us actively countering with proof, we still will have enough people and brainpower to thwart them. This is what the general public will see. Publicity is just politics. If you play it right, people will go with you. Then they will learn that it is better for them in the long run. Jacob From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Tue Apr 24 18:50:43 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <200704241522.45267.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704241522.45267.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <36535.192.168.1.1.1177455043.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> This was a lot to think about and respond to, but we have several things that we could bring to the benefit of the open source community. Already, Dell is working to decide which distribution to install for users. It needs to be something simple with KDE or GNOME already set as default so as not to confuse the "I've only used Windows so I don't know anything else and don't want to take the time to learn something else" users. It needs to have all of your basics for productivity and entertainment. Then, we also have to cater to the gamers, who are in a very large number. One thing I'm sad to say is that Linux does not have the same multimedia support that Windows has, and I say this in the sense of codecs. It is too complicated to set it up for a normal Windows user. This is why the choosing of the distribution is of the utmost importance for the "word of mouth" type of publicity. Linux doesn't have the income to support television or radio or newspaper advertisements to get the word out there that there is an alternative. I am only 24 years old and I own 5 computers. I do this as a hobby, not a job. I have one computer set up as a server (overloaded, I might add, but still operating fantastically!) with Fedora Core 5, one as a backup server/mess around with computer running SuSE 10. One computer is a 1996 Toshiba Satellite which runs Slackware for my "have to have only command prompt days." The last one is my Windows XP Alienware that was purchased for gaming. This is another things about Linux that upsets me; the gaming situation. My point with that last paragraph was actually to say that we have different viewpoints because of generational opinions on the "troll" situatiton. It needs to be handled delicately. You may stop reading when debate becomes heated, but for the new generation of "I love soap opera drama" information seekers, they thrive on it. The trick is to make it seem like an argument that is not an argument. That way, yes, the sidelined, knowledge thirsty individuals reaching for answers or alternatives can see. If we lose the battle to the "troll", our cause is viewed as weak. If we win because we said, "I'm right and you're wrong" more times, our cause is not taken seriously and people go back to surfing the rest of the internet. Our goal should be to win with facts that other people, not necessarily the "troll", can ponder and mull over. If we lose the "troll", we've only lost one. If our facts persuade anybody who stumbles on or watches this site, then we've gained that many. Our chances are greater to sway people when we keep our cool. That's what I had to say in a nutshell. And my wife is beating me to come to dinner, but I will write more on this topic as the situations come up, or if I can think of anything else. Thanks for your time and well thought-out responses. Jacob > > An interesting take on things. A view I had not considered - at least not > for > a very long time. > > Lets see if I have this right, or at least passably close. > > I suspect you view it as being a sort of competition - almost a sporting > event, for the spectators on the sidelines, as it were. > > It's not about the troll (if such he be), but rather to show other readers > that he is wrong, so they will not go away feeling that the trolls > questions > were not answered, and by association feeling that all us "geeky, nerd, > coder > types" are not very helpful, and GNU/Linux is not for them. > > Mostly because the spectator may not know about trolls and such, and > therefore > needs to be clear about the points you are making about Free Software. > > Did I get that about right? > > Now please believe me, I am not trolling here. The thing is that I'm > almost 70 > years old, and while I grew up with this industry, or more accurately this > industry grew up with me --in truth I helped build some of it. I also am > well > aware that the future does not belong to me. > > This just means that I also may have a considerable different take on some > things - not necessarily the 'right' or 'only' take, just one that goes > with > my personal experiences. > > So this is a very serious question --I'm just trying to see if I > understand > your point. > > If I have got it right, then it is an interesting way to look at it, and I > will want to think about that method. > > Off the top I think it is probably very accurate and applicable to today's > users. But it would be unlikely to sway me much (as one of the > 'spectators'). > > That's what I meant about patience. For me, after the third or fourth > "Asked > and Answered", with each side becoming more heated, I lose all interest in > what ever the subject was. And just read no further. > > Which means that from that point on, anything anyone posts is lost to me > anyway, because I'm long gone (me, or any 'spectator' that feels the way I > do). > > But I think that I can (dimly) remember a time that I might not have felt > that > way --I would probably have been in there trying to make my point that way > also. > > Now I just do it differently, and it works quite well for me. But I > suspect... > well I know, that I deal with a considerably different set of prospective > new > to GNU/Linux converts, or potential converts, then most of you do. > > I know this because while I still build and install computer systems, > retirement has the advantage of allowing me to only do 100% GNU/Linux > systems. I just refuse to work on, install, or fix, anything else. > > So far --this year-- I've installed 14 GNU/Linux systems for people, the > youngest of which was 59 years old, the oldest is 83 (the person, not the > system ;). > > These are all GNU/Linux only users, no dual boot, or second computers > running > Windows. Some had an old Windows box first, and some are brand new to all > this computer/Internet stuff. > > I'm positive not one of them even knows what a blog is (they may learn - > or > not, hard to say). But they would all recognize and ignore a troll, even > if > they would not use the term 'troll' to describe such a person. So my > approach > is different. > > Not better, just different. > > And there is one other little thing my 'old' users do, that I think has > value. > They tend to be the people that buy the computers for grand-kids, etc. and > you know what system they will expect to be on the grand-kids box. > > Yep, the system they understand --which won't be Windows. > > I've been doing this for enough years now to have some of my 'people' from > years past starting to taste the anger, when they find out they can't > simply > buy a box with GNU/Linux pre-installed for a son, or daughter, or one of > the > grand-kids. > > For them the taste is bitter, for me their anger has the sweet taste of > success at achieving my underlying goal. > > And twice as sweet because this is beginning to change, soon finding a > GNU/Linux pre-installed system may be as easy as phoning Dell (or whatever > major player that is smart enough to get on the GNU/Linux bandwagon). > > While it may not (yet) be pure GNU/Linux, it will be a big step towards > that > goal. > > We will 'win' this war, as long as we all work at it as best we can. > > So keep workin' at it, any way you can. That's what I plan to do for as > long > as I can. > > D. Hensley > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > ******************************************* > On Tuesday 24 April 2007 01:26 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > Even though I didn't take the comment that way, it's something we have to > watch for. If we don't we sound like the little kids in the back seat on a > long road trip. I just think that since we are trying to convince the > general public to switch to open source, I think that we need to maintain > our maturity and beware not to let it fall to that level. The trolls will > say their things, but we can't let questions go unanswered. Does that make > sense? I don't want there to be a question from someone who is obviously > baiting, and have it be the question of someone who is legitimately > looking for answers, then not have it answered. > > So once you beat them with proof, they will resort to the little kid in > the back seat. As long as our answers are legitimate, people will know > that the "trolls" lost. > > If we get two or three trolls actively throwing stuff out like that, and > we have even 8 of us actively countering with proof, we still will have > enough people and brainpower to thwart them. This is what the general > public will see. Publicity is just politics. If you play it right, people > will go with you. Then they will learn that it is better for them in the > long run. > > Jacob > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 11:18:49 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:48:49 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <36535.192.168.1.1.1177455043.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <200704241312.01677.Don@donhensley.com> <29926.138.162.128.38.1177446395.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704241522.45267.Don@donhensley.com> <36535.192.168.1.1.1177455043.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: I won't attack anyone because of anonymity in the futeure, thank you all for your support On 4/25/07, Jacob Maynard wrote: > > This was a lot to think about and respond to, but we have several things > that we could bring to the benefit of the open source community. Already, > Dell is working to decide which distribution to install for users. It > needs to be something simple with KDE or GNOME already set as default so > as not to confuse the "I've only used Windows so I don't know anything > else and don't want to take the time to learn something else" users. It > needs to have all of your basics for productivity and entertainment. Then, > we also have to cater to the gamers, who are in a very large number. > > One thing I'm sad to say is that Linux does not have the same multimedia > support that Windows has, and I say this in the sense of codecs. It is too > complicated to set it up for a normal Windows user. This is why the > choosing of the distribution is of the utmost importance for the "word of > mouth" type of publicity. Linux doesn't have the income to support > television or radio or newspaper advertisements to get the word out there > that there is an alternative. > > I am only 24 years old and I own 5 computers. I do this as a hobby, not a > job. I have one computer set up as a server (overloaded, I might add, but > still operating fantastically!) with Fedora Core 5, one as a backup > server/mess around with computer running SuSE 10. One computer is a 1996 > Toshiba Satellite which runs Slackware for my "have to have only command > prompt days." The last one is my Windows XP Alienware that was purchased > for gaming. This is another things about Linux that upsets me; the gaming > situation. > > My point with that last paragraph was actually to say that we have > different viewpoints because of generational opinions on the "troll" > situatiton. It needs to be handled delicately. You may stop reading when > debate becomes heated, but for the new generation of "I love soap opera > drama" information seekers, they thrive on it. The trick is to make it > seem like an argument that is not an argument. That way, yes, the > sidelined, knowledge thirsty individuals reaching for answers or > alternatives can see. If we lose the battle to the "troll", our cause is > viewed as weak. If we win because we said, "I'm right and you're wrong" > more times, our cause is not taken seriously and people go back to surfing > the rest of the internet. > > Our goal should be to win with facts that other people, not necessarily > the "troll", can ponder and mull over. If we lose the "troll", we've only > lost one. If our facts persuade anybody who stumbles on or watches this > site, then we've gained that many. Our chances are greater to sway people > when we keep our cool. > > That's what I had to say in a nutshell. And my wife is beating me to come > to dinner, but I will write more on this topic as the situations come up, > or if I can think of anything else. > > Thanks for your time and well thought-out responses. > > Jacob > > > > > An interesting take on things. A view I had not considered - at least > not > > for > > a very long time. > > > > Lets see if I have this right, or at least passably close. > > > > I suspect you view it as being a sort of competition - almost a sporting > > event, for the spectators on the sidelines, as it were. > > > > It's not about the troll (if such he be), but rather to show other > readers > > that he is wrong, so they will not go away feeling that the trolls > > questions > > were not answered, and by association feeling that all us "geeky, nerd, > > coder > > types" are not very helpful, and GNU/Linux is not for them. > > > > Mostly because the spectator may not know about trolls and such, and > > therefore > > needs to be clear about the points you are making about Free Software. > > > > Did I get that about right? > > > > Now please believe me, I am not trolling here. The thing is that I'm > > almost 70 > > years old, and while I grew up with this industry, or more accurately > this > > industry grew up with me --in truth I helped build some of it. I also am > > well > > aware that the future does not belong to me. > > > > This just means that I also may have a considerable different take on > some > > things - not necessarily the 'right' or 'only' take, just one that goes > > with > > my personal experiences. > > > > So this is a very serious question --I'm just trying to see if I > > understand > > your point. > > > > If I have got it right, then it is an interesting way to look at it, and > I > > will want to think about that method. > > > > Off the top I think it is probably very accurate and applicable to > today's > > users. But it would be unlikely to sway me much (as one of the > > 'spectators'). > > > > That's what I meant about patience. For me, after the third or fourth > > "Asked > > and Answered", with each side becoming more heated, I lose all interest > in > > what ever the subject was. And just read no further. > > > > Which means that from that point on, anything anyone posts is lost to me > > anyway, because I'm long gone (me, or any 'spectator' that feels the way > I > > do). > > > > But I think that I can (dimly) remember a time that I might not have > felt > > that > > way --I would probably have been in there trying to make my point that > way > > also. > > > > Now I just do it differently, and it works quite well for me. But I > > suspect... > > well I know, that I deal with a considerably different set of > prospective > > new > > to GNU/Linux converts, or potential converts, then most of you do. > > > > I know this because while I still build and install computer systems, > > retirement has the advantage of allowing me to only do 100% GNU/Linux > > systems. I just refuse to work on, install, or fix, anything else. > > > > So far --this year-- I've installed 14 GNU/Linux systems for people, the > > youngest of which was 59 years old, the oldest is 83 (the person, not > the > > system ;). > > > > These are all GNU/Linux only users, no dual boot, or second computers > > running > > Windows. Some had an old Windows box first, and some are brand new to > all > > this computer/Internet stuff. > > > > I'm positive not one of them even knows what a blog is (they may learn - > > or > > not, hard to say). But they would all recognize and ignore a troll, even > > if > > they would not use the term 'troll' to describe such a person. So my > > approach > > is different. > > > > Not better, just different. > > > > And there is one other little thing my 'old' users do, that I think has > > value. > > They tend to be the people that buy the computers for grand-kids, etc. > and > > you know what system they will expect to be on the grand-kids box. > > > > Yep, the system they understand --which won't be Windows. > > > > I've been doing this for enough years now to have some of my 'people' > from > > years past starting to taste the anger, when they find out they can't > > simply > > buy a box with GNU/Linux pre-installed for a son, or daughter, or one of > > the > > grand-kids. > > > > For them the taste is bitter, for me their anger has the sweet taste of > > success at achieving my underlying goal. > > > > And twice as sweet because this is beginning to change, soon finding a > > GNU/Linux pre-installed system may be as easy as phoning Dell (or > whatever > > major player that is smart enough to get on the GNU/Linux bandwagon). > > > > While it may not (yet) be pure GNU/Linux, it will be a big step towards > > that > > goal. > > > > We will 'win' this war, as long as we all work at it as best we can. > > > > So keep workin' at it, any way you can. That's what I plan to do for as > > long > > as I can. > > > > D. Hensley > > -- > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > ******************************************* > > On Tuesday 24 April 2007 01:26 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > > Even though I didn't take the comment that way, it's something we have > to > > watch for. If we don't we sound like the little kids in the back seat on > a > > long road trip. I just think that since we are trying to convince the > > general public to switch to open source, I think that we need to > maintain > > our maturity and beware not to let it fall to that level. The trolls > will > > say their things, but we can't let questions go unanswered. Does that > make > > sense? I don't want there to be a question from someone who is obviously > > baiting, and have it be the question of someone who is legitimately > > looking for answers, then not have it answered. > > > > So once you beat them with proof, they will resort to the little kid in > > the back seat. As long as our answers are legitimate, people will know > > that the "trolls" lost. > > > > If we get two or three trolls actively throwing stuff out like that, and > > we have even 8 of us actively countering with proof, we still will have > > enough people and brainpower to thwart them. This is what the general > > public will see. Publicity is just politics. If you play it right, > people > > will go with you. Then they will learn that it is better for them in the > > long run. > > > > Jacob > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070425/148aea34/attachment-0001.htm From fred.k at ieee.org Wed Apr 25 23:39:39 2007 From: fred.k at ieee.org (Fred Okuma) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:39:39 +0900 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070426121448.0346bbd8@pop.md.point.ne.jp> All, I'd thank all members of this list, especially, Yasith for starting this discussion with your (nice) blog posting, Jacob for serving as an anchor (do I use the term right?), and Don for giving very warming take on the issue of trolls. Makes me think of many other issues including politics, humanity, volunteerism, etc. Keep on, Gals and Guys! BTW, I'm 7^2 yrs old, recent convert to GNU/Linux ( < 2 yrs). Fred Okuma From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 07:12:10 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:42:10 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070426121448.0346bbd8@pop.md.point.ne.jp> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070426121448.0346bbd8@pop.md.point.ne.jp> Message-ID: Let's make linux rock and let's spread the word that vista is bad On 4/26/07, Fred Okuma wrote: > > All, > > I'd thank all members of this list, especially, > Yasith for starting this discussion with your (nice) blog posting, > Jacob for serving as an anchor (do I use the term right?), and > Don for giving very warming take on the issue of trolls. Makes me think > of many other issues including politics, humanity, volunteerism, etc. > > Keep on, Gals and Guys! > > BTW, I'm 7^2 yrs old, recent convert to GNU/Linux ( < 2 yrs). > > Fred Okuma > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070426/cc2d0574/attachment.htm From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Fri Apr 27 14:47:46 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Hello to all, I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in a different way. My thoughts are that we need to provide more information about Linux on the site that actually pertains to your average user. I think that a "council" should decide a couple of distributions, focus on them, and explain them in detail. My thoughts even went to creating interactive tutorials via Shockwave, or something like that, to demonstrate what it looks like to use Linux. Of course, this "council" could just be everyone coming to a decision on all of this stuff. One of the major problems is that we need to get the "super-geek" image out of everyone's head when the name Linux is mentioned. It needs to be associated with everyone. I thought I'd throw this out there and get everyone's opinion on the matter. If you have an opinion, please let me know. I have become quite attuned to this issue in the last couple of days. Jacob > Hi guys, > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer > some questions. the link for that post is > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 15:52:38 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 03:52:38 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: > I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about > it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused > direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in > a different way. I second that, the site seems to need some arrangement. PS: While rms is not directly in charge of BadVista, may I propose that the term GNU/Linux be used instead of Linux while advocating for free alternative operating systems? Regards Koh Choon Lin From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Fri Apr 27 16:07:17 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:07:17 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <463257F5.10604@binaryfreedom.info> I agree with this.. GNU/Linux is not a RMS thing may of us agree that is the right definition. Chris F. BinaryFreedom Koh Choon Lin wrote: >> I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about >> it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused >> direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in >> a different way. >> > > I second that, the site seems to need some arrangement. > > PS: While rms is not directly in charge of BadVista, may I propose > that the term GNU/Linux be used instead of Linux while advocating for > free alternative operating systems? > > > > Regards > Koh Choon Lin > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070427/0ccab2e4/rek2.vcf From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Fri Apr 27 16:08:14 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <1117.192.168.1.1.1177704494.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I will personally agree to that. Jacob >> I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking >> about >> it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused >> direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged >> in >> a different way. > > I second that, the site seems to need some arrangement. > > PS: While rms is not directly in charge of BadVista, may I propose > that the term GNU/Linux be used instead of Linux while advocating for > free alternative operating systems? > > > > Regards > Koh Choon Lin > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From johns at fsf.org Fri Apr 27 16:58:13 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:58:13 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: (Koh Choon Lin's message of "Sat, 28 Apr 2007 03:52:38 +0800") References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> "Koh Choon Lin" writes: >> I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about >> it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused >> direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in >> a different way. > > I second that, the site seems to need some arrangement. > > PS: While rms is not directly in charge of BadVista, may I propose > that the term GNU/Linux be used instead of Linux while advocating for > free alternative operating systems? > Likewise, I think it is important to talk about "free software" rather than "open source" for our purposes. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html is a good article about this, with the basic point being that we are urging people to reject Vista specifically because of the ways in which it takes away their freedoms. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From Don at donhensley.com Fri Apr 27 20:41:58 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:41:58 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Hi Jacob, I think you have a good idea there, except that, so far as I know, Shockwave is closed proprietary software, possibly not the best thing for a GNU/Linux web site. I think we should, as the saying goes "Eat our own dog food". Adobe is talking about releasing the source for Flex and some of the SDK tools, but it is not clear just when, nor exactly what license they may use. Flex has a basic problem though, in that a web site developed in Flex requires some special ports to be open... a problem in and of it's self, for people like me. And then the Flex platform is likely to sill require some non free software to actually deliver content. There are other ways of doing highly interactive stuff, but I think it might be best if they were developed on our own servers. The reason I say this is that for the FSF to grant people access to their servers would no doubt be very problematic. They are not set up as a host, as in virtual hosting, and any access to the back end routines for serving interactive pages would be very difficult for them (I think - John can correct me if I've guessed wrong here). Have you any particular GNU /Linux Distro's in mind? I'd think one we should include by default, as it were, is gNewSense http://www.gnewsense.org/ It allows you, among other things, to build your own Distro. Pretty cool, no? Don. *************************************** On Friday 27 April 2007 11:47 am, Jacob Maynard wrote: Hello to all, I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in a different way. My thoughts are that we need to provide more information about Linux on the site that actually pertains to your average user. I think that a "council" should decide a couple of distributions, focus on them, and explain them in detail. My thoughts even went to creating interactive tutorials via Shockwave, or something like that, to demonstrate what it looks like to use Linux. Of course, this "council" could just be everyone coming to a decision on all of this stuff. One of the major problems is that we need to get the "super-geek" image out of everyone's head when the name Linux is mentioned. It needs to be associated with everyone. I thought I'd throw this out there and get everyone's opinion on the matter. If you have an opinion, please let me know. I have become quite attuned to this issue in the last couple of days. Jacob > Hi guys, > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to answer > some questions. the link for that post is > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > cheers > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Fri Apr 27 23:12:36 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 20:12:36 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have a Vista box up and running? One of the real problems I have, is that as all my systems are GNU/Linux (I left Windows behind quite some time ago), I really am hard pressed to actually get into technical problems with Vista. I can read what information is available, and I can see the impossible problem presented in the "If you can't open it, you don't own it" aspect of any proprietary software. And the underling problems with DRM are apparent as a simple exercise in logic. The problem is "How do I explain to a Vista user, or prospective Vista user, exactly what Freedom his software lacks (and what freedoms he is giving up by using Vista), when I don't even use it at all?" That is a point by point issue that perhaps we could work on getting into a form that might reach "Joe Sixpack", or "Anonymous". Every time I get serious about explaining this, I see eyeballs glaze over. Well what can I say, I am an engineer by training, a hacker by inclination (not the hacker the news media has corrupted the honorable title into). So how do I reach the average end user? I don't believe it's a requirement to reach "Granny", she will come to it on her own, or go with whatever the family geek sets up for her. (I get all my 'old people' because either I am recommended, or they have had such a bad experience with Windows that they are out searching for something better, and run across me). So long as it's set up for them, they are the easiest bunch I know of to get to be happy GNU/Linux users. Notice that I am in a de facto manner, simply becoming a non evil Redmond for them. I have made it all work, from the first time they use it, I hold their hand as long as is needed, and am available to help (i.e.; fix it.) when they do have a problem. This is not "Joe Sixpack" gets a distro and tries to install it... Games????? where are games??? No Second Life! Why!! But then gaming is not often a big thing with my clients, maybe poker or solitaire. Frozen Bubble is always a big hit. So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that is written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit from using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using Vista. Why giving up some things that Microsoft is using to entice you (and developers) with, is the right thing to do. And why it's going to ultimately benefit them to forgo some of those poisonous things. And the FAQ needs to be in easy to understand terms and verbiage. As Jacob and I not long ago discovered, what seems obvious to one person (or age group) may not be obvious at all to another. This is one of the things that needs to be considered when creating any sort of "come on over, this is great" sort of page, be it a FAQ or otherwise. I await some feedback from all of you. As most of you know (I hope) feedback that does not agree with my take is fine with me. I'll leave you all with this observation about life (at least my life, and I'll bet yours too): "I have never, ever, not once, learned anything from someone that agreed with me." If he agreed what was there to learn from him? Don. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Fri Apr 27 23:53:48 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> References: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <1942.192.168.1.1.1177732428.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Let me sleep on these e-mails. I like the thought on both of these e-mails. I will get back to you with my opinions. I know we can come up with a good plan, and I'm sure that some of us are willing to donate some help from our own servers for this effort. I know I am. Jacob > > Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have > a > Vista box up and running? > > One of the real problems I have, is that as all my systems are GNU/Linux > (I > left Windows behind quite some time ago), I really am hard pressed to > actually get into technical problems with Vista. > > I can read what information is available, and I can see the impossible > problem > presented in the "If you can't open it, you don't own it" aspect of any > proprietary software. > > And the underling problems with DRM are apparent as a simple exercise in > logic. > > The problem is "How do I explain to a Vista user, or prospective Vista > user, > exactly what Freedom his software lacks (and what freedoms he is giving up > by > using Vista), when I don't even use it at all?" > > That is a point by point issue that perhaps we could work on getting into > a > form that might reach "Joe Sixpack", or "Anonymous". > > Every time I get serious about explaining this, I see eyeballs glaze over. > Well what can I say, I am an engineer by training, a hacker by inclination > (not the hacker the news media has corrupted the honorable title into). > > So how do I reach the average end user? > > I don't believe it's a requirement to reach "Granny", she will come to it > on > her own, or go with whatever the family geek sets up for her. (I get all > my > 'old people' because either I am recommended, or they have had such a bad > experience with Windows that they are out searching for something better, > and > run across me). > > So long as it's set up for them, they are the easiest bunch I know of to > get > to be happy GNU/Linux users. Notice that I am in a de facto manner, simply > becoming a non evil Redmond for them. I have made it all work, from the > first > time they use it, I hold their hand as long as is needed, and am available > to > help (i.e.; fix it.) when they do have a problem. > > This is not "Joe Sixpack" gets a distro and tries to install it... > Games????? > where are games??? No Second Life! Why!! > > But then gaming is not often a big thing with my clients, maybe poker or > solitaire. Frozen Bubble is always a big hit. > > So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that > is > written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit > from > using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using > Vista. > > Why giving up some things that Microsoft is using to entice you (and > developers) with, is the right thing to do. And why it's going to > ultimately > benefit them to forgo some of those poisonous things. > > And the FAQ needs to be in easy to understand terms and verbiage. > > As Jacob and I not long ago discovered, what seems obvious to one person > (or > age group) may not be obvious at all to another. This is one of the things > that needs to be considered when creating any sort of "come on over, this > is > great" sort of page, be it a FAQ or otherwise. > > I await some feedback from all of you. > > As most of you know (I hope) feedback that does not agree with my take is > fine > with me. > > I'll leave you all with this observation about life (at least my life, and > I'll bet yours too): > > "I have never, ever, not once, learned anything from someone that agreed > with > me." If he agreed what was there to learn from him? > > Don. > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 00:14:13 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:14:13 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <1942.192.168.1.1.1177732428.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> <1942.192.168.1.1.1177732428.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: > > Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have > > a > > Vista box up and running? >From BadVista website: "With this campaign, we will ensure that each time reporters mention Vista, they will be comparing it not to Windows XP or Mac OS/X, but to gNewSense and other free software distributions. By making our criticisms from a place of freedom, we will ensure that comparisons focus on the ethical relationship between user and software ? not only on which system has the better graphical transparency or the superior benchmark performance." http://badvista.fsf.org/blog/article-from-the-fsf-bulletin Is there a table or something which we can use to compare operating systems side by side? Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group From mjj at syntaktisk.dk Sat Apr 28 03:28:21 2007 From: mjj at syntaktisk.dk (Morten Juhl Johansen) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 09:28:21 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: References: <87d51p8rh6.fsf@spider.localnet> <200704272012.36563.Don@donhensley.com> <1942.192.168.1.1.1177732428.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <4632F795.6080703@syntaktisk.dk> Koh Choon Lin wrote: >>> Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have >>> a >>> Vista box up and running? > >>From BadVista website: > > "With this campaign, we will ensure that each time reporters mention > Vista, they will be comparing it not to Windows XP or Mac OS/X, but to > gNewSense and other free software distributions. By making our > criticisms from a place of freedom, we will ensure that comparisons > focus on the ethical relationship between user and software ? not only > on which system has the better graphical transparency or the superior > benchmark performance." > > http://badvista.fsf.org/blog/article-from-the-fsf-bulletin > > Is there a table or something which we can use to compare operating > systems side by side? I found Yegulalp's recent article here > http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199201179&pgno=1&queryText= very useful. Now, Ubuntu may nit be the best example because of their passion for the proprietary bits, but I actually learned a few things from it. My wife has bought a Vista box. I have tried it, but it slows me down. I have only seen things on the surface, I haven't really powerplayed with it. One argument I found interesting, though, was her insisting on getting a Windows box, because she knows it; and there are just enough similarities in Vista to make it feel like Windows, so when it behaves completely different, she is caught off guard. For the same reason, she wishes she had bought an XP box. I had her use Pardus Linux, when I was playing with it, and she says changing to Vista and changing to Pardus is not much different. Yours, M __ http://www.syntaktisk.dk From jlp at holodeck1.com Sat Apr 28 08:13:11 2007 From: jlp at holodeck1.com (Jure Repinc) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:13:11 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? Message-ID: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> There is a very interesting discussion about Vista on CNet forums: http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7810_102-0.html?forumID=77&threadID=244924&start=0 It is a thread about a poll that asks When will you start using Windows Vista? Currently it looks like a lot of people don't like Windows Vista. Never: 22% When I'm forced to: 21% When Microsoft stops supporting XP: 16% I don't do Windows: 14% I'm already using it: 13% Maybe within the year: 6% After a year: 6% I'll upgrade soon: 2% Maybe it would be a good thing to tell people that there is another choice in GNU/Linux and that there are more dangers and restrictions behind the pretty face of Vista then they could ever imagine. -- JLP's Blog - http://jlp.holodeck1.com/blog/ From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 08:47:39 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:17:39 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: Hi all, It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about vista in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image out of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). As for interactive things i think java applets will be the answer. And if we can make the bad vista site look cool, I mean adding some stylish images. And the best thing to do will be to point out the BAD things about DRM in a horrible way ;) And when i read anonymouseh!'s comments i think that there is a great issue with the myth about device drivers ( I say this is a myth because he seems to be thinking that all the drivers for all the devices hould be configured). Actually the only problems are with wireless network cards, fingerprint devices and stuff like that. And another point is that the console, windows users (after using their childish command prompt) seems to be thinking of the console as an advanced, geeky thing (Now i can't live without the command line) so we must point out things like these and linux will conquer for sure. Let's make linux better :) Yasith On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > > Hi Jacob, > I think you have a good idea there, except that, so far as I know, > Shockwave > is closed proprietary software, possibly not the best thing for a > GNU/Linux > web site. > > I think we should, as the saying goes "Eat our own dog food". > > Adobe is talking about releasing the source for Flex and some of the SDK > tools, but it is not clear just when, nor exactly what license they may > use. > > Flex has a basic problem though, in that a web site developed in Flex > requires > some special ports to be open... a problem in and of it's self, for people > like me. And then the Flex platform is likely to sill require some non > free > software to actually deliver content. > > There are other ways of doing highly interactive stuff, but I think it > might > be best if they were developed on our own servers. > > The reason I say this is that for the FSF to grant people access to their > servers would no doubt be very problematic. They are not set up as a host, > as > in virtual hosting, and any access to the back end routines for serving > interactive pages would be very difficult for them (I think - John can > correct me if I've guessed wrong here). > > Have you any particular GNU /Linux Distro's in mind? > > I'd think one we should include by default, as it were, is gNewSense > http://www.gnewsense.org/ > > It allows you, among other things, to build your own Distro. > > Pretty cool, no? > > Don. > *************************************** > On Friday 27 April 2007 11:47 am, Jacob Maynard wrote: > Hello to all, > > I think anonymous is taking to us a little more. I've been thinking about > it, and I think that the campaign for BadVista needs a more focused > direction. I also think that the site for BadVista needs to be arranged in > a different way. > > My thoughts are that we need to provide more information about Linux on > the site that actually pertains to your average user. I think that a > "council" should decide a couple of distributions, focus on them, and > explain them in detail. My thoughts even went to creating interactive > tutorials via Shockwave, or something like that, to demonstrate what it > looks like to use Linux. Of course, this "council" could just be everyone > coming to a decision on all of this stuff. > > One of the major problems is that we need to get the "super-geek" image > out of everyone's head when the name Linux is mentioned. It needs to be > associated with everyone. > > I thought I'd throw this out there and get everyone's opinion on the > matter. If you have an opinion, please let me know. I have become quite > attuned to this issue in the last couple of days. > > Jacob > > > Hi guys, > > I sent an email before this to say that i have posted an article on my > > blog. Now some anonymous guy is commenting on it and I'd be very much > > thankful if some of you guys can visit my blog and comment on that post > > answering the anonymous guy's questions, because I find it hard to > answer > > some questions. the link for that post is > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com/2007/04/bad-vista.html > > > > cheers > > -- > > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > > > > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > > > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/e0ba5848/attachment.htm From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 08:58:27 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:58:27 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about vista > in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image out > of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky > distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). Maybe we can have screenshots of gNewSense and compare them with Vista at the website? Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 09:04:11 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:34:11 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: Yeah screenshots comparing vista and linux (screenshots with Beryl) will be good. Great idea Koh Choon we'll need ideas like these. So everyone speak up and give your ideas :) maybe we can have links to the amazing beryl videos at youtube too :P or play them in the site cheers On 4/28/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about > vista > > in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image > out > > of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky > > distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). > > Maybe we can have screenshots of gNewSense and compare them with Vista > at the website? > > > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/dfe3454b/attachment-0001.htm From foetsch at yahoo.com Sat Apr 28 09:39:19 2007 From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners Message-ID: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Don Hensley wrote: > So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that is > written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit from > using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using > Vista. I'm all for it. How do we go about this? Having written lots of "executive summaries" myself, to make technical complexities appear less complex to managers, I think I'd be able to contribute to this effort. If it's possible to explain to a project manager what an "API" is, it should be quite easy to explain to a Windows user what a "GNU/Linux" is. Here are a few more ideas, that I think would go well with what you suggested: - It's very likely that those people who are going to visit the site at all have heard about GNU/Linux before. What they probably heard was that it's only for hackers; that it's hard to install; that in order to install applications, you need to compile them; that the console is the only user interface. You know, all these horror stories from the 90s. ("I tried SuSE 1.0 ten years ago and it crashed. I'm not willing to try GNU/Linux again.") What we need: Get rid of the myths and show the state of affairs in 2007. - If someone shows the willingness to give GNU/Linux a try, we need to show them how to do this. It wouldn't be wise for us to try to maintain GNU/Linux installation instructions ourselves, but we can point visitors to the information that is already available elsewhere on the web. What we need: Provide instructions for how to start using GNU/Linux, and show that it *is* possible to migrate your data from Windows/Mac to GNU/Linux. - Have plenty of freedom talk, as this is what's unique about the BadVista approach. We shouldn't (only) talk about saving money, or about the technical merits of the Unix heritage. What we need: Pointers to free software philosophy on the web. In my opinion, it would be very useful to have a wiki of some sort, which we can use to collect ideas and to prepare the drafts. I also think that the actual FAQ page shouldn't be the wiki itself, but that it should be a polished and edited version of the wiki. This gives us a chance to try out ideas freely, while not scaring off readers with unfinished material. (Sending drafts back and forth through the mailing list would work, but it's far from efficient.) How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and effort? Could BadVista host this? Kind Regards, M.F. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From news at adolflam.com Sat Apr 28 09:56:43 2007 From: news at adolflam.com (news@adolflam.com) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> Message-ID: <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Hello, One thing about Windows users is that most of them arent to that level of computing that they would be interested in geek topics on computer OS, even if they even bother to visit such forum at the first place. So, I wouldn't say the data is reliable. Windows is still making big, we wouldn't become compliacent =) --- Lam YongXian Adolf Lam @ www.adolflam.com > There is a very interesting discussion about Vista on CNet forums: > > http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7810_102-0.html?forumID=77&threadID=244924&start=0 > > It is a thread about a poll that asks When will you start using Windows > Vista? Currently it looks like a lot of people don't like Windows Vista. > > Never: 22% > When I'm forced to: 21% > When Microsoft stops supporting XP: 16% > I don't do Windows: 14% > I'm already using it: 13% > Maybe within the year: 6% > After a year: 6% > I'll upgrade soon: 2% > > Maybe it would be a good thing to tell people that there is another > choice in GNU/Linux and that there are more dangers and restrictions > behind the pretty face of Vista then they could ever imagine. > > -- > JLP's Blog - http://jlp.holodeck1.com/blog/ > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 10:04:35 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:04:35 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: > One thing about Windows users is that most of them arent to that level of > computing that they would be interested in geek topics on computer OS, > even if they even bother to visit such forum at the first place. I believe the reason why the FSF started the BadVista campaign is due to a possible "sudden mass reduction of software freedom" if Vista is adopted by the public and this is a real socio-political issue about demanding for freedom, which everyone should be concerned about, rather than about geek-ness. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt Sat Apr 28 11:03:57 2007 From: nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt (Nuno J. Silva) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:03:57 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <20070428160357.675e424c@localhost> On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:17:39 +0530 "Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi" wrote: > Hi all, > > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about > vista in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the > geeky image out of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an > introduction to non-geeky distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, > Ubuntu, Kubuntu). That'd be good, but we should drop SUSE from the list, as Novell is now linked to Microsoft. > > As for interactive things i think java applets will be the answer. > And if we can make the bad vista site look cool, I mean adding some > stylish images. And the best thing to do will be to point out the BAD > things about DRM in a horrible way ;) If java is going to be used, please create also alternative HTML pages for the applets. > > And when i read anonymouseh!'s comments i think that there is a great > issue with the myth about device drivers ( I say this is a myth > because he seems to be thinking that all the drivers for all the > devices hould be configured). Actually the only problems are with > wireless network cards, fingerprint devices and stuff like that. I think that there are more hardware issues with windows than with GNU/Linux: the drivers which are already in the kernel are prepared to meet a quality level which is much more stable than the windows drivers, because the windows ones are not bundled with the OS kernel, and as the opposite happens with Linux, that results in better, safer and more stable drivers. And with open drivers, GNU/linux developers may develop frontends which are able to deal with several hardware pieces with simillar or equal features. In windows we can see this in TWAIN, but it still needs a software layer which depends on the manufacturer (in linux SANE provides backends and the frontend is the same). So my point of view is that after all, who wins in the drivers issues is GNU/Linux. Just look for hardware with *open* linux drivers and you'll have something which works better in GNU/Linux than in windows. > > And another point is that the console, windows users (after using > their childish command prompt) seems to be thinking of the console as > an advanced, geeky thing (Now i can't live without the command line) > so we must point out things like these and linux will conquer for > sure. That thing which had no tab-completion until windows 5.0? :-) A comparation between that toy and *n?x shells is a must-have. -- Nuno J. Silva Lisbon, Portugal Homepage: & Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org Using Claws Mail 2.9.0 Gentoo Base System release 1.12.9 Linux 2.6.17-gentoo-r7 i686 Pentium II (Deschutes) -=-=- Arithmetic is being able to count up to twenty without taking off your shoes. -- Mickey Mouse -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/4e705d56/signature.pgp From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 11:23:59 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:23:59 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <20070428160357.675e424c@localhost> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> <20070428160357.675e424c@localhost> Message-ID: > > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about > > vista in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the > > geeky image out of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an > > introduction to non-geeky distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, > > Ubuntu, Kubuntu). > > That'd be good, but we should drop SUSE from the list, as Novell is now > linked to Microsoft. Actually, I am in favor of dropping all of them since none is an ethically free distribution. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From hom.sepanta at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 11:24:53 2007 From: hom.sepanta at gmail.com (Mostafa Razavi) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:54:53 +0330 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: <46336745.2080305@gmail.com> > I believe the reason why the FSF started the BadVista campaign is due > to a possible "sudden mass reduction of software freedom" if Vista is > adopted by the public and this is a real socio-political issue about > demanding for freedom, which everyone should be concerned about, > rather than about geek-ness. > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > I agree with you. And Vista adoption basically means the industry can integrate DRM and Trusted Computing into the hardware and software more than before; and this is going to affect everyone, including the users of free software operating systems. In fact, I guess this is the major reason for which one might bother participating in the campaign. Homayoon From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 12:12:05 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:12:05 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704280912y63d882fdq1ecfe6d363b22055@mail.gmail.com> I have an oem copy of Windows Vista home available (that I wiped from my hard drive the minute I got the machine) if somebody wants it. You can send me a S.A.S.E.. Email me for my addy In Solidarity, Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Michael F?tsch wrote: > Don Hensley wrote: > > So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that is > > written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit from > > using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using > > Vista. > > I'm all for it. How do we go about this? > > Having written lots of "executive summaries" myself, to make technical complexities appear less complex to managers, I think I'd be able to contribute to this effort. If it's possible to explain to a project manager what an "API" is, it should be quite easy to explain to a Windows user what a "GNU/Linux" is. > > Here are a few more ideas, that I think would go well with what you suggested: > - It's very likely that those people who are going to visit the site at all have heard about GNU/Linux before. What they probably heard was that it's only for hackers; that it's hard to install; that in order to install applications, you need to compile them; that the console is the only user interface. You know, all these horror stories from the 90s. ("I tried SuSE 1.0 ten years ago and it crashed. I'm not willing to try GNU/Linux again.") > > What we need: Get rid of the myths and show the state of affairs in 2007. > > - If someone shows the willingness to give GNU/Linux a try, we need to show them how to do this. It wouldn't be wise for us to try to maintain GNU/Linux installation instructions ourselves, but we can point visitors to the information that is already available elsewhere on the web. > > What we need: Provide instructions for how to start using GNU/Linux, and show that it *is* possible to migrate your data from Windows/Mac to GNU/Linux. > > - Have plenty of freedom talk, as this is what's unique about the BadVista approach. We shouldn't (only) talk about saving money, or about the technical merits of the Unix heritage. > > What we need: Pointers to free software philosophy on the web. > > > In my opinion, it would be very useful to have a wiki of some sort, which we can use to collect ideas and to prepare the drafts. I also think that the actual FAQ page shouldn't be the wiki itself, but that it should be a polished and edited version of the wiki. This gives us a chance to try out ideas freely, while not scaring off readers with unfinished material. > > (Sending drafts back and forth through the mailing list would work, but it's far from efficient.) > > > How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and effort? Could BadVista host this? > > Kind Regards, > M.F. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 13:05:23 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:05:23 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" Message-ID: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> Please correct this ridiculous notion: http://texyt.com/Microsoft+bets+Windows+Vista+fewer+bugs+than+XP+066 Don't let Microsoft brainwash the media! Comrade Ringo Kamens From sunnzy at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 13:28:33 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 03:28:33 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea Message-ID: You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free software video. All the current free software activities are good per se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to read through the stuff on badvista. So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: ======================================= Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their parents work at day. One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB says. Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the restrictive things, and was free forever. ======================================= Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around with it.... i think it would be beneficial if some kind of video can metaphorically explain to the general public, and these days with the high bandwidth internet and stream video, it isn't so hard to distribute the video, especially if it is creative and entertaining, and lots of people has done it like Apple, Sun Microsystems, and even Google, so yea. -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 13:36:41 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:36:41 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3922422b0704281036k24fad1e7je406f4bad919a3ad@mail.gmail.com> Here are a few to get ideas from also: http://showusthecode.com/alternatives.htm In Solidarity, Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Sunnz wrote: > You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? > > Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they > holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free > software video. All the current free software activities are good per > se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, > and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to > read through the stuff on badvista. > > So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: > > ======================================= > Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be > doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their > parents work at day. > > One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command > how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can > imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't > like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB > says. > > Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a > beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and > the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother > and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family > as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should > work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. > > Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the > restrictive things, and was free forever. > ======================================= > > Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has > potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around with it.... > > i think it would be beneficial if some kind of video can > metaphorically explain to the general public, and these days with the > high bandwidth internet and stream video, it isn't so hard to > distribute the video, especially if it is creative and entertaining, > and lots of people has done it like Apple, Sun Microsystems, and even > Google, so yea. > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From shroomling at googlemail.com Sat Apr 28 13:37:00 2007 From: shroomling at googlemail.com (Wayne Moore) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:37:00 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92448cdd0704281037o46a29ff7s4572b9bb2443bcf4@mail.gmail.com> I think that's a great idea, which reminded me of a few Mac vs PC spoofs that Novell did with GNU/Linux added into the mix. Here they are for those of you who haven't seen them [warning, flash required]: Spoof 1 Spoof 2 Spoof 3 laterz wayne On 28/04/07, Sunnz wrote: > > You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? > > Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they > holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free > software video. All the current free software activities are good per > se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, > and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to > read through the stuff on badvista. > > So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: > > ======================================= > Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be > doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their > parents work at day. > > One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command > how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can > imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't > like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB > says. > > Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a > beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and > the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother > and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family > as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should > work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. > > Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the > restrictive things, and was free forever. > ======================================= > > Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has > potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around with it.... > > i think it would be beneficial if some kind of video can > metaphorically explain to the general public, and these days with the > high bandwidth internet and stream video, it isn't so hard to > distribute the video, especially if it is creative and entertaining, > and lots of people has done it like Apple, Sun Microsystems, and even > Google, so yea. > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/4e0527c4/attachment.htm From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 14:19:24 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 02:19:24 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <92448cdd0704281037o46a29ff7s4572b9bb2443bcf4@mail.gmail.com> References: <92448cdd0704281037o46a29ff7s4572b9bb2443bcf4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Spoof 1 > Spoof 2 > Spoof 3 Youtube would require non-free software to view.. ogg are available but they made the mistake of calling GNU as linux. http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux.OGG http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux_2.OGG http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux_3.OGG Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From shroomling at googlemail.com Sat Apr 28 14:29:49 2007 From: shroomling at googlemail.com (Wayne Moore) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 19:29:49 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: <92448cdd0704281037o46a29ff7s4572b9bb2443bcf4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <92448cdd0704281129u40457e28g269bbd3160ef6467@mail.gmail.com> You're absolutely right, my bad :-/ Thanks for the OGG links. laterz wayne On 28/04/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > > Spoof 1 > > Spoof 2 > > Spoof 3 > > Youtube would require non-free software to view.. ogg are available > but they made the mistake of calling GNU as linux. > > http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux.OGG > http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux_2.OGG > http://cdn.novell.com/cached/video/bs_07/mac_pc_linux_3.OGG > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/64ede41a/attachment.htm From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sat Apr 28 15:12:22 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I'm for it. I would be willing to bet that with all of us chiming in on wanting to help with the BadVista site, BadVista wouldn't have any problems helping out. I see you have already defined your position in this effort. That's outstanding. We need to cover some basic areas on this one: 1. Games - Cover the games that are out there and which run natively on GNU/Linux, and cover which ones run with WinE. But this is going to be the toughest selling point because there's not a huge push for games on GNU/Linux with the same reputation as major video games on Windows and the XBox/PS. 2. Productivity - Obviously OpenOffice.org is on the list. We can include StarOffice, if anyone thinks it is worth mentioning while we are presenting it to the users. The biggest thing that we need to focus on is agreeing on standards. Thunderbird or Evolution for e-mail, even though I think that most of us use Evolution. GNUCash should be included, too. 3. Multimedia - Our distribution should have support for all of this already, or an easy place to download a binary codec package. This is almost as big as the games, if not more so. More advanced areas we can work on may include the command line. You don't want to start off with the command line, though. That's where people say, "Umm, I have something else to do." I know that most of us can't live without the command prompt, but your average user is intimidated by it. Sorry, Yasith. You can't just open them up right off of the bat to this. So I guess that the question should come up; are we intending on creating a distribution of our own that includes all of this support, or are we going to decide on a distribution collectively. I've heard gNewSense, and from the short amount of reading I've done on it, this is creating our own distro. Can we clarify and take a vote on this? This should come second to the website, though. More later. Jacob > Don Hensley wrote: >> So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ >> that is >> written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit >> from >> using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using >> Vista. > > I'm all for it. How do we go about this? > > Having written lots of "executive summaries" myself, to make technical > complexities appear less complex to managers, I think I'd be able to > contribute to this effort. If it's possible to explain to a project > manager what an "API" is, it should be quite easy to explain to a Windows > user what a "GNU/Linux" is. > > Here are a few more ideas, that I think would go well with what you > suggested: > - It's very likely that those people who are going to visit the site at > all have heard about GNU/Linux before. What they probably heard was that > it's only for hackers; that it's hard to install; that in order to install > applications, you need to compile them; that the console is the only user > interface. You know, all these horror stories from the 90s. ("I tried SuSE > 1.0 ten years ago and it crashed. I'm not willing to try GNU/Linux > again.") > > What we need: Get rid of the myths and show the state of affairs in 2007. > > - If someone shows the willingness to give GNU/Linux a try, we need to > show them how to do this. It wouldn't be wise for us to try to maintain > GNU/Linux installation instructions ourselves, but we can point visitors > to the information that is already available elsewhere on the web. > > What we need: Provide instructions for how to start using GNU/Linux, and > show that it *is* possible to migrate your data from Windows/Mac to > GNU/Linux. > > - Have plenty of freedom talk, as this is what's unique about the BadVista > approach. We shouldn't (only) talk about saving money, or about the > technical merits of the Unix heritage. > > What we need: Pointers to free software philosophy on the web. > > > In my opinion, it would be very useful to have a wiki of some sort, which > we can use to collect ideas and to prepare the drafts. I also think that > the actual FAQ page shouldn't be the wiki itself, but that it should be a > polished and edited version of the wiki. This gives us a chance to try out > ideas freely, while not scaring off readers with unfinished material. > > (Sending drafts back and forth through the mailing list would work, but > it's far from efficient.) > > > How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and > effort? Could BadVista host this? > > Kind Regards, > M.F. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 15:28:19 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 03:28:19 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: Dear all I feel that, when advocating for BadVista, we must not recommend another proprietary software to replace Vista! That would be just as bad. I have a rather ambitious idea to expand the BadVista campaign, maybe we can setup a gratis CDs shipping service for gNewSense a la ShipIt of Canonical? Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 15:42:19 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:42:19 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704281242s5789b603l1754690a5eef88ba@mail.gmail.com> I would be willing to contribute $10 to a shipit for gnewsense Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > Dear all > > I feel that, when advocating for BadVista, we must not recommend > another proprietary software to replace Vista! That would be just as > bad. > > I have a rather ambitious idea to expand the BadVista campaign, maybe > we can setup a gratis CDs shipping service for gNewSense a la ShipIt > of Canonical? > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt Sat Apr 28 15:44:54 2007 From: nunojsilva at mail.telepac.pt (Nuno J. Silva) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:44:54 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <20070428204454.20c382f6@localhost> On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:12:22 -0400 (EDT) "Jacob Maynard" wrote: > I'm for it. I would be willing to bet that with all of us chiming in > on wanting to help with the BadVista site, BadVista wouldn't have any > problems helping out. > > I see you have already defined your position in this effort. That's > outstanding. > > We need to cover some basic areas on this one: > 1. Games - Cover the games that are out there and which run natively > on GNU/Linux, and cover which ones run with WinE. But this is going > to be the toughest selling point because there's not a huge push for > games on GNU/Linux with the same reputation as major video games on > Windows and the XBox/PS. A section about console emulators (PS, NES, SNES, GameCube, XBox, etc) would be interesting too. > 2. Productivity - Obviously OpenOffice.org is on the list. We can > include StarOffice, if anyone thinks it is worth mentioning while we > are presenting it to the users. The biggest thing that we need to > focus on is agreeing on standards. Thunderbird or Evolution for > e-mail, even though I think that most of us use Evolution. GNUCash > should be included, too. IMO StarOffice shouldn't be included, it isn't FLOSS. For email, claws mail would be on the list too. And please include (La)TeX and The GIMP. > 3. Multimedia - Our distribution should have > support for all of this already, or an easy place to download a > binary codec package. This is almost as big as the games, if not more > so. Video edition software may be another big point. > > More advanced areas we can work on may include the command line. You > don't want to start off with the command line, though. That's where > people say, "Umm, I have something else to do." I know that most of > us can't live without the command prompt, but your average user is > intimidated by it. Sorry, Yasith. You can't just open them up right > off of the bat to this. If there isn't already one, an introduction to all *n?x shells (or maybe one introduction per shell) would do it. > So I guess that the question should come up; are we intending on > creating a distribution of our own that includes all of this support, > or are we going to decide on a distribution collectively. I've heard > gNewSense, and from the short amount of reading I've done on it, this > is creating our own distro. Can we clarify and take a vote on this? > This should come second to the website, though. Something which is lightweight, fast, and includes only free software (and, if needed, open source software - I don't know what would be the FSF position about this, since OS is not the same as FS), the free software we specify here, will fit. But some technical decisions must be taken. The work of building a distro from zero and widespread it implies building package repositories and a compatible and lightweight package manager. It is easier to pick an existing package system and use it (Debian's system and apt-get, Gentoo Portage and Paludis, &c). -- Nuno J. Silva Lisbon, Portugal Homepage: & Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org Using Claws Mail 2.9.0 Gentoo Base System release 1.12.9 Linux 2.6.17-gentoo-r7 i686 Pentium II (Deschutes) -=-=- ?In all recorded history there has not been one economist who has had to worry about where the next meal would come from.? -- Peter S. Drucker, who invented management -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070428/ec5e94ff/signature.pgp From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sat Apr 28 16:58:26 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista, specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable? Jacob > You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? > > Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they > holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free > software video. All the current free software activities are good per > se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, > and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to > read through the stuff on badvista. > > So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: > > ======================================= > Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be > doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their > parents work at day. > > One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command > how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can > imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't > like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB > says. > > Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a > beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and > the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother > and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family > as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should > work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. > > Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the > restrictive things, and was free forever. > ======================================= > > Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has > potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around with it.... > > i think it would be beneficial if some kind of video can > metaphorically explain to the general public, and these days with the > high bandwidth internet and stream video, it isn't so hard to > distribute the video, especially if it is creative and entertaining, > and lots of people has done it like Apple, Sun Microsystems, and even > Google, so yea. > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Sat Apr 28 17:28:56 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:28:56 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Marketing Campaign Message-ID: <200704281428.56479.Don@donhensley.com> Morton, you have brought out an point I find of interest, that possibly the group here would like to give me their thoughts on. The Information Week article you linked to, (here's a link that will save everyone several page jumps): http://www.informationweek.com/shared/printableArticle.jhtml?articleID=199201179 And the the blog responses at: http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/04/ubuntu_linux_vs.html Are very interesting because it's hard to find (I didn't find any) real pro Vista comments. I find your wife's comments about the Pardus flavor of GNU/Linux comparing to the Vista flavor of Windows, "changing to Vista and changing to Pardus is not much different", to be revealing of something I noticed about the Information Week article. In it, and every such article I read, what is happening is that they mostly compare GUI's, and not so much the actual OS. As your wife did --She was actually mostly just comparing Vista to KDE (in the Pardus flavor), as the Info Week article is mostly comparing Vista to Gnome (in the Ubuntu flavor). We all know we can choose the Desktop Environment we want (or write our own --Freedom isn't an option, for us it's built in). How many Windows users do you suppose know what we are talking about when we talk about the Desktop Environment? Most of them think of it as the equivalent of a Windows theme, rather then what it actually is --if they think about it at all. This is one of the things that leads to confusion with Windows vs. GNU/Linux comparisons. Of course they universally miss the point that it is the hardware vendor that creates hardware problems. They also conveniently forget to mention the disks that came with each peripheral they use with the Windows OS, which provide the print drivers, Ethernet card drives, etc. for whatever flavor of Windows they are using/installing (including one to set up the Motherboard!). This false "the GUI==the OS", is actually true on the Windows side also. People see the eye candy and feel a "perceived" ease of use. GNU/Linux or Vista... it's about how the end user thinks/feels about the system. We do not qualify as end users. Not to make us anything except what we are, geeks to one degree or another. But by definition, we would not be here on this list, if we were the average end user --and that is who we must reach with our message. And that's is my point: How do we deal with end user perception? I have one or two ideas, if anyone else thinks this is as important an issue as I think it is, in terms of showing the disadvantages of Vista, and the advantages of GNU/Linux, by attempting to create a campaign that deals with perception first, and then using that, lead into the technical aspects of each OS. After all, much as it goes against my hacker nature, I can understand that the basic problem is in marketing, not technical superiority (if it was just on technical merit Windows [also DRM & TC] would already be past history). Don. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From hom.sepanta at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 17:48:09 2007 From: hom.sepanta at gmail.com (Mostafa Razavi) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:18:09 +0330 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <4633C119.6000001@gmail.com> I guess we should definitely go with an existing distribution. If it has problems, we can help fix them. IMHO, it's far better than starting from scratch. Concerning gNewSense, and other FSF-approved distros, if anyone has experiences working with them, please let us know about their advantages and problems. I have not worked with any of them. My last experience was with Feisty Fawn, which was great in simplicity of various task, but it uses proprietary drivers. I think Feisty, despite this problem, has good lessons to teach us. For example, it's method of tackling the problem of codecs is excellent. Homayoon Jacob Maynard wrote: > I'm for it. I would be willing to bet that with all of us chiming in on > wanting to help with the BadVista site, BadVista wouldn't have any > problems helping out. > > I see you have already defined your position in this effort. That's > outstanding. > > We need to cover some basic areas on this one: > 1. Games - Cover the games that are out there and which run natively on > GNU/Linux, and cover which ones run with WinE. But this is going to be the > toughest selling point because there's not a huge push for games on > GNU/Linux with the same reputation as major video games on Windows and the > XBox/PS. > 2. Productivity - Obviously OpenOffice.org is on the list. We can include > StarOffice, if anyone thinks it is worth mentioning while we are > presenting it to the users. The biggest thing that we need to focus on is > agreeing on standards. Thunderbird or Evolution for e-mail, even though I > think that most of us use Evolution. GNUCash should be included, too. > 3. Multimedia - Our distribution should have support for all of this > already, or an easy place to download a binary codec package. This is > almost as big as the games, if not more so. > > More advanced areas we can work on may include the command line. You don't > want to start off with the command line, though. That's where people say, > "Umm, I have something else to do." I know that most of us can't live > without the command prompt, but your average user is intimidated by it. > Sorry, Yasith. You can't just open them up right off of the bat to this. > > So I guess that the question should come up; are we intending on creating > a distribution of our own that includes all of this support, or are we > going to decide on a distribution collectively. I've heard gNewSense, and > from the short amount of reading I've done on it, this is creating our own > distro. Can we clarify and take a vote on this? This should come second to > the website, though. > > More later. > > Jacob > From hom.sepanta at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 17:53:06 2007 From: hom.sepanta at gmail.com (Mostafa Razavi) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:23:06 +0330 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <4633C242.9030105@gmail.com> badvista.org's home page title: "Stopping Microsoft Windows Vista adoption by promoting free software" although, I think in the first step people should be reminded that they are going a step backward even compared to other non-free alternatives, such as Mac or Windows XP. Homayoon Jacob Maynard wrote: > I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know > that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista, > specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable? > > Jacob > From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sat Apr 28 21:21:17 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <20070428204454.20c382f6@localhost> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <20070428204454.20c382f6@localhost> Message-ID: <1483.192.168.1.1.1177809677.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> You mention Debian in this message, and I need to stress again that it needs to be one of the systems that is easy to use. When I first started with Linux, I used Red Hat 9. Very simple. It has carried on to Fedora, but I can understand that some people don't want to go with Fedora. Since Novell and MS have become friends, I agree that we shouldn't use SuSE, though it is very simple. Debian and apt-get is not a good example of what would be user-friendly. Our own distribution would be helpful, but the complications of it are pretty staggering. I could understand not wanting to do it. But we have to make it very simple for the user. Anyway, that's more of my two cents. Jacob > On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:12:22 -0400 (EDT) > "Jacob Maynard" wrote: > >> I'm for it. I would be willing to bet that with all of us chiming in >> on wanting to help with the BadVista site, BadVista wouldn't have any >> problems helping out. >> >> I see you have already defined your position in this effort. That's >> outstanding. >> >> We need to cover some basic areas on this one: >> 1. Games - Cover the games that are out there and which run natively >> on GNU/Linux, and cover which ones run with WinE. But this is going >> to be the toughest selling point because there's not a huge push for >> games on GNU/Linux with the same reputation as major video games on >> Windows and the XBox/PS. > > A section about console emulators (PS, NES, SNES, GameCube, XBox, etc) > would be interesting too. > >> 2. Productivity - Obviously OpenOffice.org is on the list. We can >> include StarOffice, if anyone thinks it is worth mentioning while we >> are presenting it to the users. The biggest thing that we need to >> focus on is agreeing on standards. Thunderbird or Evolution for >> e-mail, even though I think that most of us use Evolution. GNUCash >> should be included, too. > > IMO StarOffice shouldn't be included, it isn't FLOSS. > > For email, claws mail would be on the list too. > > And please include (La)TeX and The GIMP. > >> 3. Multimedia - Our distribution should have >> support for all of this already, or an easy place to download a >> binary codec package. This is almost as big as the games, if not more >> so. > > Video edition software may be another big point. > >> >> More advanced areas we can work on may include the command line. You >> don't want to start off with the command line, though. That's where >> people say, "Umm, I have something else to do." I know that most of >> us can't live without the command prompt, but your average user is >> intimidated by it. Sorry, Yasith. You can't just open them up right >> off of the bat to this. > > If there isn't already one, an introduction to all *n?x shells (or > maybe one introduction per shell) would do it. > >> So I guess that the question should come up; are we intending on >> creating a distribution of our own that includes all of this support, >> or are we going to decide on a distribution collectively. I've heard >> gNewSense, and from the short amount of reading I've done on it, this >> is creating our own distro. Can we clarify and take a vote on this? >> This should come second to the website, though. > > Something which is lightweight, fast, and includes only free software > (and, if needed, open source software - I don't know what would be the > FSF position about this, since OS is not the same as FS), the free > software we specify here, will fit. > > But some technical decisions must be taken. The work of building a > distro from zero and widespread it implies building package > repositories and a compatible and lightweight package manager. > It is easier to pick an existing package system and use it (Debian's > system and apt-get, Gentoo Portage and Paludis, &c). > > -- > Nuno J. Silva > Lisbon, Portugal > Homepage: & > Registered Linux User #402207 - http://counter.li.org > > Using Claws Mail 2.9.0 > > Gentoo Base System release 1.12.9 > Linux 2.6.17-gentoo-r7 i686 Pentium II (Deschutes) > > -=-=- > ???In all recorded history there has not been one economist who has had > to worry about where the next meal would come from.??? -- Peter S. > Drucker, who invented management > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Sat Apr 28 21:48:24 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:48:24 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC Message-ID: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> This is not in any great order, it's just a stab at a coherent road to possibly start us out in a unified but broad direction. (I have a fear of narrow approaches. I think hackers work best when working on their own, but in collaborative groups --Just my take is all). - - - - 1. Set up a lot of cross linked and badged sites for our projects. A sort of BadVista Ring, we already have enough of us to make a good core. This diversifies the reach of our project, and helps all the Ring sites gain Google rank. 2. Each site should "do it's own thing", but use heavy cross linkage to other sites (within the Ring - so there is a cohesive wholeness to the links) to show aspects that any one site is not delving into as deeply as the linked to site is, for that particular subject. This gives us the ability to coordinate both sites to play well off the strengths of the other site - because we have a back end communication that is not apparent to the visitor. Among our Ring sites, I would encourage deep linking, as well as just linking to the home page. Let the Ring links do the home pages, let deep links do the internal work of leading people around. Use "open in a new window (tab)" so the visitor does not lose where he was. 3. For that back end communication we need a wiki for resource management and a board much like Slashdot only without the vote system (actually the Bruce Perens Technocrat.net site does just what I have in mind). That way we can track separate subjects and proposals by individual - and reply in a cogent manner, instead of what we are doing now. 4. We link back to BadVista.org, of course, but mostly we try to use this mail list as a recruiting ground for more participants, and general pointing out new sites and findings. That gives us the drawing power of the FSF to find ever more adherents to the cause. Of course we advocate joining the BadVista Advocate program (and the FSF!), and provide links to the http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate and FSF.org sites for those that wish to take part, at whatever level. 5. We need to link heavily to already existing sites that cover much of the ground that there is little point in our repeating. With luck eventually some of them will link back to our sites. 6. I do not think we need to pick a particular Distro, or try to create our own. But I do think we should all use one or two Distros like gNewSense (it is a Distro, you can download the ISO from here if you want): http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/Features --but it is also more then just a Distro, because you can use Builder and create a Distro to your liking. This does not mean limiting your self to just gNewSense, or any particular Distro, just that we all should use some agreed on totally Free Distro, like gNewSense, as our shared Distro for explanations when ever we are working the notion of Free Software into our pages. Links and excerpts from the GNU philosophy pages would go well at the appropriate points. 7. Also one might consider showing off http://www.lnx-bbc.com/ it is the way the FSF Associate Membership Cards are done (an entire GNU/Linux mini distro on a business card sized (and shape) CD. 8. We should actually introduce the players and explain what they do and how they work to create the entity generally known as GNU/Linux. By this I mean start with the Logos. Like the KDE dragon Konqi, the Gnome foot print, the GNU GNU, the Linux penguin (Tux), and so on. Do lightweight intros into what each of those projects are, and where they fit in the scheme of things. Link to another persons site on the Ring that is doing a more in depth look at what ever your not going into in depth, like if you are a Gnome user, link to a KDE users site (or several of the RING sites) in your description of KDE. Deep link as required in descriptions of each project, to other Ring members sites. A sort of distributed attack on the perception problem, make it fun and educational. And I think each of us probably can, and does, reach a different segment of end users that we each can present stuff to as fun. Lets try to use that diversity, with a combined strategy. That way we can use our expertise to good instruction, and feel free to talk about your favorite Distro... just always return to the shared pure GNU/Linux Distro of choice (like gNewSense) as the example of totally Free Software. A pragmatic method, but consistently pointed at Free Software as the ultimate goal. 9. Along the way, without making a big deal out of it, slip in little things like how Vista does not allow you to control things like how you interface with your own computer. Explain why it's so much more useful to be able to change things, or have a community to ask for changes, rather then just being at the mercy of one monopoly. The ***AA's are a monopolistic group too, not just Microsoft. Easy segueway into why DRM is harmful, why Treacherous Computing is dangerous. 10. Have ever more layered pages that go into these subjects in more depth, if the visitor wishes to follow up on some point you have made. BIG DISCLAIMER: I'm no good at jazzy web sites, and I don't know much about marketing. These are just things --Starting points, for a possible road to follow. There have been so many good ideas tossed out already that I am a bit overwhelmed, so this is actually a sort of outline to bring our efforts into some cohesive form. I read at least one person that said he'd managed to explain what an API was to a pointy haired boss, I'll bet he and all you people can improve on my little list. Probably in ways I'd never imagine. So this is more like a RFC, if you will. So bring on the comments. Don. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 21:56:33 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:56:33 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC In-Reply-To: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704281856j3538e82fnb3cde73a1bffaeb8@mail.gmail.com> This is a great idea and something I've been wanting to do for a while. If anybody needs a place to collaborate, they can join the Binary Freedom IFSA mailing list (binaryfreedom.info) or on our wiki at wiki.binaryfreedom.info. Also, getting people involved in showusthecode.com would be good as well. In total solidarity, Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > This is not in any great order, it's just a stab at a coherent road to > possibly start us out in a unified but broad direction. (I have a fear of > narrow approaches. I think hackers work best when working on their own, but > in collaborative groups --Just my take is all). > > - - - - > > 1. Set up a lot of cross linked and badged sites for our projects. A sort of > BadVista Ring, we already have enough of us to make a good core. This > diversifies the reach of our project, and helps all the Ring sites gain > Google rank. > > 2. Each site should "do it's own thing", but use heavy cross linkage to other > sites (within the Ring - so there is a cohesive wholeness to the links) to > show aspects that any one site is not delving into as deeply as the linked to > site is, for that particular subject. This gives us the ability to coordinate > both sites to play well off the strengths of the other site - because we have > a back end communication that is not apparent to the visitor. > > Among our Ring sites, I would encourage deep linking, as well as just linking > to the home page. Let the Ring links do the home pages, let deep links do the > internal work of leading people around. Use "open in a new window (tab)" so > the visitor does not lose where he was. > > 3. For that back end communication we need a wiki for resource management and > a board much like Slashdot only without the vote system (actually the Bruce > Perens Technocrat.net site does just what I have in mind). That way we can > track separate subjects and proposals by individual - and reply in a cogent > manner, instead of what we are doing now. > > 4. We link back to BadVista.org, of course, but mostly we try to use this mail > list as a recruiting ground for more participants, and general pointing out > new sites and findings. That gives us the drawing power of the FSF to find > ever more adherents to the cause. Of course we advocate joining the BadVista > Advocate program (and the FSF!), and provide links to the > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate and FSF.org sites for those > that wish to take part, at whatever level. > > 5. We need to link heavily to already existing sites that cover much of the > ground that there is little point in our repeating. With luck eventually some > of them will link back to our sites. > > 6. I do not think we need to pick a particular Distro, or try to create our > own. But I do think we should all use one or two Distros like gNewSense (it > is a Distro, you can download the ISO from here if you want): > http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/Features --but it is also more then just a > Distro, because you can use Builder and create a Distro to your liking. > > This does not mean limiting your self to just gNewSense, or any particular > Distro, just that we all should use some agreed on totally Free Distro, like > gNewSense, as our shared Distro for explanations when ever we are working the > notion of Free Software into our pages. > > Links and excerpts from the GNU philosophy pages would go well at the > appropriate points. > > 7. Also one might consider showing off http://www.lnx-bbc.com/ it is the way > the FSF Associate Membership Cards are done (an entire GNU/Linux mini distro > on a business card sized (and shape) CD. > > 8. We should actually introduce the players and explain what they do and how > they work to create the entity generally known as GNU/Linux. > > By this I mean start with the Logos. Like the KDE dragon Konqi, the Gnome foot > print, the GNU GNU, the Linux penguin (Tux), and so on. > > Do lightweight intros into what each of those projects are, and where they fit > in the scheme of things. Link to another persons site on the Ring that is > doing a more in depth look at what ever your not going into in depth, like if > you are a Gnome user, link to a KDE users site (or several of the RING sites) > in your description of KDE. Deep link as required in descriptions of each > project, to other Ring members sites. > > A sort of distributed attack on the perception problem, make it fun and > educational. And I think each of us probably can, and does, reach a different > segment of end users that we each can present stuff to as fun. Lets try to > use that diversity, with a combined strategy. > > That way we can use our expertise to good instruction, and feel free to talk > about your favorite Distro... just always return to the shared pure GNU/Linux > Distro of choice (like gNewSense) as the example of totally Free Software. > > A pragmatic method, but consistently pointed at Free Software as the ultimate > goal. > > 9. Along the way, without making a big deal out of it, slip in little things > like how Vista does not allow you to control things like how you interface > with your own computer. Explain why it's so much more useful to be able to > change things, or have a community to ask for changes, rather then just being > at the mercy of one monopoly. The ***AA's are a monopolistic group too, not > just Microsoft. > > Easy segueway into why DRM is harmful, why Treacherous Computing is dangerous. > > 10. Have ever more layered pages that go into these subjects in more depth, if > the visitor wishes to follow up on some point you have made. > > BIG DISCLAIMER: I'm no good at jazzy web sites, and I don't know much about > marketing. These are just things --Starting points, for a possible road to > follow. > > There have been so many good ideas tossed out already that I am a bit > overwhelmed, so this is actually a sort of outline to bring our efforts into > some cohesive form. > > I read at least one person that said he'd managed to explain what an API was > to a pointy haired boss, I'll bet he and all you people can improve on my > little list. Probably in ways I'd never imagine. > > So this is more like a RFC, if you will. > > So bring on the comments. > > Don. > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 22:42:47 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:42:47 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704281856j3538e82fnb3cde73a1bffaeb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> <3922422b0704281856j3538e82fnb3cde73a1bffaeb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704281942x6dcbee3fq70e10e42f89a6051@mail.gmail.com> Update: There is a page on the BinaryFreedom wiki here: http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy Please update it/add more information. Let's turn this plan into reality! Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote: > This is a great idea and something I've been wanting to do for a > while. If anybody needs a place to collaborate, they can join the > Binary Freedom IFSA mailing list (binaryfreedom.info) or on our wiki > at wiki.binaryfreedom.info. Also, getting people involved in > showusthecode.com would be good as well. > In total solidarity, > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > > > This is not in any great order, it's just a stab at a coherent road to > > possibly start us out in a unified but broad direction. (I have a fear of > > narrow approaches. I think hackers work best when working on their own, but > > in collaborative groups --Just my take is all). > > > > - - - - > > > > 1. Set up a lot of cross linked and badged sites for our projects. A sort of > > BadVista Ring, we already have enough of us to make a good core. This > > diversifies the reach of our project, and helps all the Ring sites gain > > Google rank. > > > > 2. Each site should "do it's own thing", but use heavy cross linkage to other > > sites (within the Ring - so there is a cohesive wholeness to the links) to > > show aspects that any one site is not delving into as deeply as the linked to > > site is, for that particular subject. This gives us the ability to coordinate > > both sites to play well off the strengths of the other site - because we have > > a back end communication that is not apparent to the visitor. > > > > Among our Ring sites, I would encourage deep linking, as well as just linking > > to the home page. Let the Ring links do the home pages, let deep links do the > > internal work of leading people around. Use "open in a new window (tab)" so > > the visitor does not lose where he was. > > > > 3. For that back end communication we need a wiki for resource management and > > a board much like Slashdot only without the vote system (actually the Bruce > > Perens Technocrat.net site does just what I have in mind). That way we can > > track separate subjects and proposals by individual - and reply in a cogent > > manner, instead of what we are doing now. > > > > 4. We link back to BadVista.org, of course, but mostly we try to use this mail > > list as a recruiting ground for more participants, and general pointing out > > new sites and findings. That gives us the drawing power of the FSF to find > > ever more adherents to the cause. Of course we advocate joining the BadVista > > Advocate program (and the FSF!), and provide links to the > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate and FSF.org sites for those > > that wish to take part, at whatever level. > > > > 5. We need to link heavily to already existing sites that cover much of the > > ground that there is little point in our repeating. With luck eventually some > > of them will link back to our sites. > > > > 6. I do not think we need to pick a particular Distro, or try to create our > > own. But I do think we should all use one or two Distros like gNewSense (it > > is a Distro, you can download the ISO from here if you want): > > http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/Features --but it is also more then just a > > Distro, because you can use Builder and create a Distro to your liking. > > > > This does not mean limiting your self to just gNewSense, or any particular > > Distro, just that we all should use some agreed on totally Free Distro, like > > gNewSense, as our shared Distro for explanations when ever we are working the > > notion of Free Software into our pages. > > > > Links and excerpts from the GNU philosophy pages would go well at the > > appropriate points. > > > > 7. Also one might consider showing off http://www.lnx-bbc.com/ it is the way > > the FSF Associate Membership Cards are done (an entire GNU/Linux mini distro > > on a business card sized (and shape) CD. > > > > 8. We should actually introduce the players and explain what they do and how > > they work to create the entity generally known as GNU/Linux. > > > > By this I mean start with the Logos. Like the KDE dragon Konqi, the Gnome foot > > print, the GNU GNU, the Linux penguin (Tux), and so on. > > > > Do lightweight intros into what each of those projects are, and where they fit > > in the scheme of things. Link to another persons site on the Ring that is > > doing a more in depth look at what ever your not going into in depth, like if > > you are a Gnome user, link to a KDE users site (or several of the RING sites) > > in your description of KDE. Deep link as required in descriptions of each > > project, to other Ring members sites. > > > > A sort of distributed attack on the perception problem, make it fun and > > educational. And I think each of us probably can, and does, reach a different > > segment of end users that we each can present stuff to as fun. Lets try to > > use that diversity, with a combined strategy. > > > > That way we can use our expertise to good instruction, and feel free to talk > > about your favorite Distro... just always return to the shared pure GNU/Linux > > Distro of choice (like gNewSense) as the example of totally Free Software. > > > > A pragmatic method, but consistently pointed at Free Software as the ultimate > > goal. > > > > 9. Along the way, without making a big deal out of it, slip in little things > > like how Vista does not allow you to control things like how you interface > > with your own computer. Explain why it's so much more useful to be able to > > change things, or have a community to ask for changes, rather then just being > > at the mercy of one monopoly. The ***AA's are a monopolistic group too, not > > just Microsoft. > > > > Easy segueway into why DRM is harmful, why Treacherous Computing is dangerous. > > > > 10. Have ever more layered pages that go into these subjects in more depth, if > > the visitor wishes to follow up on some point you have made. > > > > BIG DISCLAIMER: I'm no good at jazzy web sites, and I don't know much about > > marketing. These are just things --Starting points, for a possible road to > > follow. > > > > There have been so many good ideas tossed out already that I am a bit > > overwhelmed, so this is actually a sort of outline to bring our efforts into > > some cohesive form. > > > > I read at least one person that said he'd managed to explain what an API was > > to a pointy haired boss, I'll bet he and all you people can improve on my > > little list. Probably in ways I'd never imagine. > > > > So this is more like a RFC, if you will. > > > > So bring on the comments. > > > > Don. > > -- > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > From sunnzy at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 22:44:54 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:44:54 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <4633C242.9030105@gmail.com> References: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <4633C242.9030105@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yea I seen the Spoof made by Novell. But IMHO they are fun at best. Macs have been the alternative for many people, we don't really want to just throw up "yet another alternative". So I think we should make an ad that is something else, the white background and the music of Mac ads should not be copied, instead, this should be something totally different. In the first "scene", perhaps have the parents and the kid in an ordinary house doing ordinary stuff instead, and we might have them to wear same style of slightly different coloured clothes and same hair style to emphasise that there isn't much freedom under M$ aka the big brother. As for leaving out Mac, perhaps we could still do it (if we get to do it.) but cut it out at first... only to have the "full version" of the vid to be included in a truly free Linux distributions like gNewsense when people actually install it. 2007/4/29, Mostafa Razavi : > badvista.org's home page title: > "Stopping Microsoft Windows Vista adoption by promoting free software" > > although, I think in the first step people should be reminded that they > are going a step backward even compared to other non-free alternatives, > such as Mac or Windows XP. > > Homayoon > > Jacob Maynard wrote: > > I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know > > that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista, > > specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable? > > > > Jacob > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From sunnzy at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 22:55:38 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:55:38 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <4633C119.6000001@gmail.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <4633C119.6000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: If Feisty is good then why don't just fork it and make it free? Couldn't be that hard with vrms. 2007/4/29, Mostafa Razavi : > I guess we should definitely go with an existing distribution. If it has > problems, we can help fix them. IMHO, it's far better than starting from > scratch. > > Concerning gNewSense, and other FSF-approved distros, if anyone has > experiences working with them, please let us know about their advantages > and problems. I have not worked with any of them. My last experience was > with Feisty Fawn, which was great in simplicity of various task, but it > uses proprietary drivers. I think Feisty, despite this problem, has good > lessons to teach us. For example, it's method of tackling the problem of > codecs is excellent. > > Homayoon > > Jacob Maynard wrote: > > I'm for it. I would be willing to bet that with all of us chiming in on > > wanting to help with the BadVista site, BadVista wouldn't have any > > problems helping out. > > > > I see you have already defined your position in this effort. That's > > outstanding. > > > > We need to cover some basic areas on this one: > > 1. Games - Cover the games that are out there and which run natively on > > GNU/Linux, and cover which ones run with WinE. But this is going to be the > > toughest selling point because there's not a huge push for games on > > GNU/Linux with the same reputation as major video games on Windows and the > > XBox/PS. > > 2. Productivity - Obviously OpenOffice.org is on the list. We can include > > StarOffice, if anyone thinks it is worth mentioning while we are > > presenting it to the users. The biggest thing that we need to focus on is > > agreeing on standards. Thunderbird or Evolution for e-mail, even though I > > think that most of us use Evolution. GNUCash should be included, too. > > 3. Multimedia - Our distribution should have support for all of this > > already, or an easy place to download a binary codec package. This is > > almost as big as the games, if not more so. > > > > More advanced areas we can work on may include the command line. You don't > > want to start off with the command line, though. That's where people say, > > "Umm, I have something else to do." I know that most of us can't live > > without the command prompt, but your average user is intimidated by it. > > Sorry, Yasith. You can't just open them up right off of the bat to this. > > > > So I guess that the question should come up; are we intending on creating > > a distribution of our own that includes all of this support, or are we > > going to decide on a distribution collectively. I've heard gNewSense, and > > from the short amount of reading I've done on it, this is creating our own > > distro. Can we clarify and take a vote on this? This should come second to > > the website, though. > > > > More later. > > > > Jacob > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 23:00:30 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:00:30 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <4633C119.6000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704282000u7e933a59ofd0350fa11cac39f@mail.gmail.com> The gnewsense devs are working on a fiesty fork but it's going to be a while. You can help them out if you want by joining the discussion list. Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Sunnz wrote: > If Feisty is good then why don't just fork it and make it free? > Couldn't be that hard with vrms. > > 2007/4/29, Mostafa Razavi : > > I guess we should definitely go with an existing distribution. If it has > > problems, we can help fix them. IMHO, it's far better than starting from > > scratch. > > > > Concerning gNewSense, and other FSF-approved distros, if anyone has > > experiences working with them, please let us know about their advantages > > and problems. I have not worked with any of them. My last experience was > > with Feisty Fawn, which was great in simplicity of various task, but it > > uses proprietary drivers. I think Feisty, despite this problem, has good > > lessons to teach us. For example, it's method of tackling the problem of > > codecs is excellent. > > > > Homayoon > > > > Jacob Maynard wrote: > > > I'm for it. I would be willing to bet that with all of us chiming in on > > > wanting to help with the BadVista site, BadVista wouldn't have any > > > problems helping out. > > > > > > I see you have already defined your position in this effort. That's > > > outstanding. > > > > > > We need to cover some basic areas on this one: > > > 1. Games - Cover the games that are out there and which run natively on > > > GNU/Linux, and cover which ones run with WinE. But this is going to be the > > > toughest selling point because there's not a huge push for games on > > > GNU/Linux with the same reputation as major video games on Windows and the > > > XBox/PS. > > > 2. Productivity - Obviously OpenOffice.org is on the list. We can include > > > StarOffice, if anyone thinks it is worth mentioning while we are > > > presenting it to the users. The biggest thing that we need to focus on is > > > agreeing on standards. Thunderbird or Evolution for e-mail, even though I > > > think that most of us use Evolution. GNUCash should be included, too. > > > 3. Multimedia - Our distribution should have support for all of this > > > already, or an easy place to download a binary codec package. This is > > > almost as big as the games, if not more so. > > > > > > More advanced areas we can work on may include the command line. You don't > > > want to start off with the command line, though. That's where people say, > > > "Umm, I have something else to do." I know that most of us can't live > > > without the command prompt, but your average user is intimidated by it. > > > Sorry, Yasith. You can't just open them up right off of the bat to this. > > > > > > So I guess that the question should come up; are we intending on creating > > > a distribution of our own that includes all of this support, or are we > > > going to decide on a distribution collectively. I've heard gNewSense, and > > > from the short amount of reading I've done on it, this is creating our own > > > distro. Can we clarify and take a vote on this? This should come second to > > > the website, though. > > > > > > More later. > > > > > > Jacob > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Sat Apr 28 23:01:57 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:01:57 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704281942x6dcbee3fq70e10e42f89a6051@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> <3922422b0704281856j3538e82fnb3cde73a1bffaeb8@mail.gmail.com> <3922422b0704281942x6dcbee3fq70e10e42f89a6051@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704282001.57571.Don@donhensley.com> Ringo Kamens, Now that was fast! I was off looking at GPL'd webring progys and you are off and running. I see you are already set up to do PHP and are no doubt familiar with it, so how about becoming a ringmaster - there are a ton of good GPL'd programs, here's a Google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=create+webring+gpl&btnG=Google+Search Would you be interested in being ringmaster? Don. **************************** On Saturday 28 April 2007 07:42 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote: Update: There is a page on the BinaryFreedom wiki here: http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy Please update it/add more information. Let's turn this plan into reality! Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote: > This is a great idea and something I've been wanting to do for a > while. If anybody needs a place to collaborate, they can join the > Binary Freedom IFSA mailing list (binaryfreedom.info) or on our wiki > at wiki.binaryfreedom.info. Also, getting people involved in > showusthecode.com would be good as well. > In total solidarity, > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > This is not in any great order, it's just a stab at a coherent road to > > possibly start us out in a unified but broad direction. (I have a fear of > > narrow approaches. I think hackers work best when working on their own, > > but in collaborative groups --Just my take is all). > > > > - - - - > > > > 1. Set up a lot of cross linked and badged sites for our projects. A > > sort of BadVista Ring, we already have enough of us to make a good core. > > This diversifies the reach of our project, and helps all the Ring sites > > gain Google rank. > > > > 2. Each site should "do it's own thing", but use heavy cross linkage to > > other sites (within the Ring - so there is a cohesive wholeness to the > > links) to show aspects that any one site is not delving into as deeply as > > the linked to site is, for that particular subject. This gives us the > > ability to coordinate both sites to play well off the strengths of the > > other site - because we have a back end communication that is not > > apparent to the visitor. > > > > Among our Ring sites, I would encourage deep linking, as well as just > > linking to the home page. Let the Ring links do the home pages, let deep > > links do the internal work of leading people around. Use "open in a new > > window (tab)" so the visitor does not lose where he was. > > > > 3. For that back end communication we need a wiki for resource management > > and a board much like Slashdot only without the vote system (actually the > > Bruce Perens Technocrat.net site does just what I have in mind). That way > > we can track separate subjects and proposals by individual - and reply in > > a cogent manner, instead of what we are doing now. > > > > 4. We link back to BadVista.org, of course, but mostly we try to use this > > mail list as a recruiting ground for more participants, and general > > pointing out new sites and findings. That gives us the drawing power of > > the FSF to find ever more adherents to the cause. Of course we advocate > > joining the BadVista Advocate program (and the FSF!), and provide links > > to the > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate and FSF.org sites for > > those that wish to take part, at whatever level. > > > > 5. We need to link heavily to already existing sites that cover much of > > the ground that there is little point in our repeating. With luck > > eventually some of them will link back to our sites. > > > > 6. I do not think we need to pick a particular Distro, or try to create > > our own. But I do think we should all use one or two Distros like > > gNewSense (it is a Distro, you can download the ISO from here if you > > want): > > http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/Features --but it is also more then just a > > Distro, because you can use Builder and create a Distro to your liking. > > > > This does not mean limiting your self to just gNewSense, or any > > particular Distro, just that we all should use some agreed on totally > > Free Distro, like gNewSense, as our shared Distro for explanations when > > ever we are working the notion of Free Software into our pages. > > > > Links and excerpts from the GNU philosophy pages would go well at the > > appropriate points. > > > > 7. Also one might consider showing off http://www.lnx-bbc.com/ it is the > > way the FSF Associate Membership Cards are done (an entire GNU/Linux mini > > distro on a business card sized (and shape) CD. > > > > 8. We should actually introduce the players and explain what they do and > > how they work to create the entity generally known as GNU/Linux. > > > > By this I mean start with the Logos. Like the KDE dragon Konqi, the Gnome > > foot print, the GNU GNU, the Linux penguin (Tux), and so on. > > > > Do lightweight intros into what each of those projects are, and where > > they fit in the scheme of things. Link to another persons site on the > > Ring that is doing a more in depth look at what ever your not going into > > in depth, like if you are a Gnome user, link to a KDE users site (or > > several of the RING sites) in your description of KDE. Deep link as > > required in descriptions of each project, to other Ring members sites. > > > > A sort of distributed attack on the perception problem, make it fun and > > educational. And I think each of us probably can, and does, reach a > > different segment of end users that we each can present stuff to as fun. > > Lets try to use that diversity, with a combined strategy. > > > > That way we can use our expertise to good instruction, and feel free to > > talk about your favorite Distro... just always return to the shared pure > > GNU/Linux Distro of choice (like gNewSense) as the example of totally > > Free Software. > > > > A pragmatic method, but consistently pointed at Free Software as the > > ultimate goal. > > > > 9. Along the way, without making a big deal out of it, slip in little > > things like how Vista does not allow you to control things like how you > > interface with your own computer. Explain why it's so much more useful to > > be able to change things, or have a community to ask for changes, rather > > then just being at the mercy of one monopoly. The ***AA's are a > > monopolistic group too, not just Microsoft. > > > > Easy segueway into why DRM is harmful, why Treacherous Computing is > > dangerous. > > > > 10. Have ever more layered pages that go into these subjects in more > > depth, if the visitor wishes to follow up on some point you have made. > > > > BIG DISCLAIMER: I'm no good at jazzy web sites, and I don't know much > > about marketing. These are just things --Starting points, for a possible > > road to follow. > > > > There have been so many good ideas tossed out already that I am a bit > > overwhelmed, so this is actually a sort of outline to bring our efforts > > into some cohesive form. > > > > I read at least one person that said he'd managed to explain what an API > > was to a pointy haired boss, I'll bet he and all you people can improve > > on my little list. Probably in ways I'd never imagine. > > > > So this is more like a RFC, if you will. > > > > So bring on the comments. > > > > Don. > > -- > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 23:04:45 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:04:45 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC In-Reply-To: <200704282001.57571.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> <3922422b0704281856j3538e82fnb3cde73a1bffaeb8@mail.gmail.com> <3922422b0704281942x6dcbee3fq70e10e42f89a6051@mail.gmail.com> <200704282001.57571.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704282004t5e7c080cua2ab51cf11bc84d7@mail.gmail.com> I don't actually have admin access on the server, just to the wiki. I think a webring is too formal and search engines seem to "downgrade" links to and from webring sites. We'll still be a webring, but we won't publicly say it. It will just be a bunch of linking back and forth to each other. So who has sites that wants to join in? Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > Ringo Kamens, > Now that was fast! I was off looking at GPL'd webring progys and you are off > and running. > > I see you are already set up to do PHP and are no doubt familiar with it, so > how about becoming a ringmaster - there are a ton of good GPL'd programs, > here's a Google: > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=create+webring+gpl&btnG=Google+Search > > Would you be interested in being ringmaster? > > Don. > **************************** > On Saturday 28 April 2007 07:42 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote: > Update: There is a page on the BinaryFreedom wiki here: > http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy > Please update it/add more information. Let's turn this plan into reality! > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > On 4/28/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote: > > This is a great idea and something I've been wanting to do for a > > while. If anybody needs a place to collaborate, they can join the > > Binary Freedom IFSA mailing list (binaryfreedom.info) or on our wiki > > at wiki.binaryfreedom.info. Also, getting people involved in > > showusthecode.com would be good as well. > > In total solidarity, > > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > > > On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > > This is not in any great order, it's just a stab at a coherent road to > > > possibly start us out in a unified but broad direction. (I have a fear of > > > narrow approaches. I think hackers work best when working on their own, > > > but in collaborative groups --Just my take is all). > > > > > > - - - - > > > > > > 1. Set up a lot of cross linked and badged sites for our projects. A > > > sort of BadVista Ring, we already have enough of us to make a good core. > > > This diversifies the reach of our project, and helps all the Ring sites > > > gain Google rank. > > > > > > 2. Each site should "do it's own thing", but use heavy cross linkage to > > > other sites (within the Ring - so there is a cohesive wholeness to the > > > links) to show aspects that any one site is not delving into as deeply as > > > the linked to site is, for that particular subject. This gives us the > > > ability to coordinate both sites to play well off the strengths of the > > > other site - because we have a back end communication that is not > > > apparent to the visitor. > > > > > > Among our Ring sites, I would encourage deep linking, as well as just > > > linking to the home page. Let the Ring links do the home pages, let deep > > > links do the internal work of leading people around. Use "open in a new > > > window (tab)" so the visitor does not lose where he was. > > > > > > 3. For that back end communication we need a wiki for resource management > > > and a board much like Slashdot only without the vote system (actually the > > > Bruce Perens Technocrat.net site does just what I have in mind). That way > > > we can track separate subjects and proposals by individual - and reply in > > > a cogent manner, instead of what we are doing now. > > > > > > 4. We link back to BadVista.org, of course, but mostly we try to use this > > > mail list as a recruiting ground for more participants, and general > > > pointing out new sites and findings. That gives us the drawing power of > > > the FSF to find ever more adherents to the cause. Of course we advocate > > > joining the BadVista Advocate program (and the FSF!), and provide links > > > to the > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate and FSF.org sites for > > > those that wish to take part, at whatever level. > > > > > > 5. We need to link heavily to already existing sites that cover much of > > > the ground that there is little point in our repeating. With luck > > > eventually some of them will link back to our sites. > > > > > > 6. I do not think we need to pick a particular Distro, or try to create > > > our own. But I do think we should all use one or two Distros like > > > gNewSense (it is a Distro, you can download the ISO from here if you > > > want): > > > http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/Features --but it is also more then just a > > > Distro, because you can use Builder and create a Distro to your liking. > > > > > > This does not mean limiting your self to just gNewSense, or any > > > particular Distro, just that we all should use some agreed on totally > > > Free Distro, like gNewSense, as our shared Distro for explanations when > > > ever we are working the notion of Free Software into our pages. > > > > > > Links and excerpts from the GNU philosophy pages would go well at the > > > appropriate points. > > > > > > 7. Also one might consider showing off http://www.lnx-bbc.com/ it is the > > > way the FSF Associate Membership Cards are done (an entire GNU/Linux mini > > > distro on a business card sized (and shape) CD. > > > > > > 8. We should actually introduce the players and explain what they do and > > > how they work to create the entity generally known as GNU/Linux. > > > > > > By this I mean start with the Logos. Like the KDE dragon Konqi, the Gnome > > > foot print, the GNU GNU, the Linux penguin (Tux), and so on. > > > > > > Do lightweight intros into what each of those projects are, and where > > > they fit in the scheme of things. Link to another persons site on the > > > Ring that is doing a more in depth look at what ever your not going into > > > in depth, like if you are a Gnome user, link to a KDE users site (or > > > several of the RING sites) in your description of KDE. Deep link as > > > required in descriptions of each project, to other Ring members sites. > > > > > > A sort of distributed attack on the perception problem, make it fun and > > > educational. And I think each of us probably can, and does, reach a > > > different segment of end users that we each can present stuff to as fun. > > > Lets try to use that diversity, with a combined strategy. > > > > > > That way we can use our expertise to good instruction, and feel free to > > > talk about your favorite Distro... just always return to the shared pure > > > GNU/Linux Distro of choice (like gNewSense) as the example of totally > > > Free Software. > > > > > > A pragmatic method, but consistently pointed at Free Software as the > > > ultimate goal. > > > > > > 9. Along the way, without making a big deal out of it, slip in little > > > things like how Vista does not allow you to control things like how you > > > interface with your own computer. Explain why it's so much more useful to > > > be able to change things, or have a community to ask for changes, rather > > > then just being at the mercy of one monopoly. The ***AA's are a > > > monopolistic group too, not just Microsoft. > > > > > > Easy segueway into why DRM is harmful, why Treacherous Computing is > > > dangerous. > > > > > > 10. Have ever more layered pages that go into these subjects in more > > > depth, if the visitor wishes to follow up on some point you have made. > > > > > > BIG DISCLAIMER: I'm no good at jazzy web sites, and I don't know much > > > about marketing. These are just things --Starting points, for a possible > > > road to follow. > > > > > > There have been so many good ideas tossed out already that I am a bit > > > overwhelmed, so this is actually a sort of outline to bring our efforts > > > into some cohesive form. > > > > > > I read at least one person that said he'd managed to explain what an API > > > was to a pointy haired boss, I'll bet he and all you people can improve > > > on my little list. Probably in ways I'd never imagine. > > > > > > So this is more like a RFC, if you will. > > > > > > So bring on the comments. > > > > > > Don. > > > -- > > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Advocate mailing list > > > Advocate at badvista.org > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Sat Apr 28 23:15:18 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:15:18 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704282004t5e7c080cua2ab51cf11bc84d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> <200704282001.57571.Don@donhensley.com> <3922422b0704282004t5e7c080cua2ab51cf11bc84d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704282015.18409.Don@donhensley.com> I was actually less interested in webrings in the conventional sense then I was in a common badge, and a central point for that badge to point at. That site can have the actual links to individual pages, with possibly brief descriptions (provided by the web site owner). It's the sense of belonging to, and ability to clearly be seen as a part of this community that I want to foster. And I mean so it shows to the visiting public, we all already know how to just check the BadVista Advocacy members page, so we need a public method of showing we all are coordinated in this effort. Anyway that was the idea. Don. ***************** On Saturday 28 April 2007 08:04 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote: I don't actually have admin access on the server, just to the wiki. I think a webring is too formal and search engines seem to "downgrade" links to and from webring sites. We'll still be a webring, but we won't publicly say it. It will just be a bunch of linking back and forth to each other. So who has sites that wants to join in? Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > Ringo Kamens, > Now that was fast! I was off looking at GPL'd webring progys and you are > off and running. > > I see you are already set up to do PHP and are no doubt familiar with it, > so how about becoming a ringmaster - there are a ton of good GPL'd > programs, here's a Google: > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=create+webring+gpl&btnG=Google+Search > > Would you be interested in being ringmaster? > > Don. > **************************** > On Saturday 28 April 2007 07:42 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote: > Update: There is a page on the BinaryFreedom wiki here: > http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy > Please update it/add more information. Let's turn this plan into reality! > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > On 4/28/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote: > > This is a great idea and something I've been wanting to do for a > > while. If anybody needs a place to collaborate, they can join the > > Binary Freedom IFSA mailing list (binaryfreedom.info) or on our wiki > > at wiki.binaryfreedom.info. Also, getting people involved in > > showusthecode.com would be good as well. > > In total solidarity, > > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > > > On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > > This is not in any great order, it's just a stab at a coherent road to > > > possibly start us out in a unified but broad direction. (I have a fear > > > of narrow approaches. I think hackers work best when working on their > > > own, but in collaborative groups --Just my take is all). > > > > > > - - - - > > > > > > 1. Set up a lot of cross linked and badged sites for our projects. A > > > sort of BadVista Ring, we already have enough of us to make a good > > > core. This diversifies the reach of our project, and helps all the Ring > > > sites gain Google rank. > > > > > > 2. Each site should "do it's own thing", but use heavy cross linkage to > > > other sites (within the Ring - so there is a cohesive wholeness to the > > > links) to show aspects that any one site is not delving into as deeply > > > as the linked to site is, for that particular subject. This gives us > > > the ability to coordinate both sites to play well off the strengths of > > > the other site - because we have a back end communication that is not > > > apparent to the visitor. > > > > > > Among our Ring sites, I would encourage deep linking, as well as just > > > linking to the home page. Let the Ring links do the home pages, let > > > deep links do the internal work of leading people around. Use "open in > > > a new window (tab)" so the visitor does not lose where he was. > > > > > > 3. For that back end communication we need a wiki for resource > > > management and a board much like Slashdot only without the vote system > > > (actually the Bruce Perens Technocrat.net site does just what I have in > > > mind). That way we can track separate subjects and proposals by > > > individual - and reply in a cogent manner, instead of what we are doing > > > now. > > > > > > 4. We link back to BadVista.org, of course, but mostly we try to use > > > this mail list as a recruiting ground for more participants, and > > > general pointing out new sites and findings. That gives us the drawing > > > power of the FSF to find ever more adherents to the cause. Of course we > > > advocate joining the BadVista Advocate program (and the FSF!), and > > > provide links to the > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate and FSF.org sites for > > > those that wish to take part, at whatever level. > > > > > > 5. We need to link heavily to already existing sites that cover much of > > > the ground that there is little point in our repeating. With luck > > > eventually some of them will link back to our sites. > > > > > > 6. I do not think we need to pick a particular Distro, or try to create > > > our own. But I do think we should all use one or two Distros like > > > gNewSense (it is a Distro, you can download the ISO from here if you > > > want): > > > http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/Features --but it is also more then just > > > a Distro, because you can use Builder and create a Distro to your > > > liking. > > > > > > This does not mean limiting your self to just gNewSense, or any > > > particular Distro, just that we all should use some agreed on totally > > > Free Distro, like gNewSense, as our shared Distro for explanations when > > > ever we are working the notion of Free Software into our pages. > > > > > > Links and excerpts from the GNU philosophy pages would go well at the > > > appropriate points. > > > > > > 7. Also one might consider showing off http://www.lnx-bbc.com/ it is > > > the way the FSF Associate Membership Cards are done (an entire > > > GNU/Linux mini distro on a business card sized (and shape) CD. > > > > > > 8. We should actually introduce the players and explain what they do > > > and how they work to create the entity generally known as GNU/Linux. > > > > > > By this I mean start with the Logos. Like the KDE dragon Konqi, the > > > Gnome foot print, the GNU GNU, the Linux penguin (Tux), and so on. > > > > > > Do lightweight intros into what each of those projects are, and where > > > they fit in the scheme of things. Link to another persons site on the > > > Ring that is doing a more in depth look at what ever your not going > > > into in depth, like if you are a Gnome user, link to a KDE users site > > > (or several of the RING sites) in your description of KDE. Deep link as > > > required in descriptions of each project, to other Ring members sites. > > > > > > A sort of distributed attack on the perception problem, make it fun and > > > educational. And I think each of us probably can, and does, reach a > > > different segment of end users that we each can present stuff to as > > > fun. Lets try to use that diversity, with a combined strategy. > > > > > > That way we can use our expertise to good instruction, and feel free to > > > talk about your favorite Distro... just always return to the shared > > > pure GNU/Linux Distro of choice (like gNewSense) as the example of > > > totally Free Software. > > > > > > A pragmatic method, but consistently pointed at Free Software as the > > > ultimate goal. > > > > > > 9. Along the way, without making a big deal out of it, slip in little > > > things like how Vista does not allow you to control things like how you > > > interface with your own computer. Explain why it's so much more useful > > > to be able to change things, or have a community to ask for changes, > > > rather then just being at the mercy of one monopoly. The ***AA's are a > > > monopolistic group too, not just Microsoft. > > > > > > Easy segueway into why DRM is harmful, why Treacherous Computing is > > > dangerous. > > > > > > 10. Have ever more layered pages that go into these subjects in more > > > depth, if the visitor wishes to follow up on some point you have made. > > > > > > BIG DISCLAIMER: I'm no good at jazzy web sites, and I don't know much > > > about marketing. These are just things --Starting points, for a > > > possible road to follow. > > > > > > There have been so many good ideas tossed out already that I am a bit > > > overwhelmed, so this is actually a sort of outline to bring our efforts > > > into some cohesive form. > > > > > > I read at least one person that said he'd managed to explain what an > > > API was to a pointy haired boss, I'll bet he and all you people can > > > improve on my little list. Probably in ways I'd never imagine. > > > > > > So this is more like a RFC, if you will. > > > > > > So bring on the comments. > > > > > > Don. > > > -- > > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Advocate mailing list > > > Advocate at badvista.org > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From 2600denver at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 23:19:32 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:19:32 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC In-Reply-To: <200704282015.18409.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> <200704282001.57571.Don@donhensley.com> <3922422b0704282004t5e7c080cua2ab51cf11bc84d7@mail.gmail.com> <200704282015.18409.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704282019k567d7eafi984e29d0db2a8d16@mail.gmail.com> Yeah I agree with that idea I just think we should stray away from the words webring as well as random redirect pages etc. They are bad for image and google rankings. How about we just all link to badvista? That can be our central point. ***CROSS POSTING*** Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > I was actually less interested in webrings in the conventional sense then I > was in a common badge, and a central point for that badge to point at. That > site can have the actual links to individual pages, with possibly brief > descriptions (provided by the web site owner). > > It's the sense of belonging to, and ability to clearly be seen as a part of > this community that I want to foster. > > And I mean so it shows to the visiting public, we all already know how to just > check the BadVista Advocacy members page, so we need a public method of > showing we all are coordinated in this effort. > > Anyway that was the idea. > > Don. > ***************** > On Saturday 28 April 2007 08:04 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote: > I don't actually have admin access on the server, just to the wiki. I > think a webring is too formal and search engines seem to "downgrade" > links to and from webring sites. We'll still be a webring, but we > won't publicly say it. It will just be a bunch of linking back and > forth to each other. So who has sites that wants to join in? > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > Ringo Kamens, > > Now that was fast! I was off looking at GPL'd webring progys and you are > > off and running. > > > > I see you are already set up to do PHP and are no doubt familiar with it, > > so how about becoming a ringmaster - there are a ton of good GPL'd > > programs, here's a Google: > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=create+webring+gpl&btnG=Google+Search > > > > Would you be interested in being ringmaster? > > > > Don. > > **************************** > > On Saturday 28 April 2007 07:42 pm, Ringo Kamens wrote: > > Update: There is a page on the BinaryFreedom wiki here: > > http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy > > Please update it/add more information. Let's turn this plan into reality! > > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > > > On 4/28/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote: > > > This is a great idea and something I've been wanting to do for a > > > while. If anybody needs a place to collaborate, they can join the > > > Binary Freedom IFSA mailing list (binaryfreedom.info) or on our wiki > > > at wiki.binaryfreedom.info. Also, getting people involved in > > > showusthecode.com would be good as well. > > > In total solidarity, > > > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > > > > > On 4/28/07, Don Hensley wrote: > > > > This is not in any great order, it's just a stab at a coherent road to > > > > possibly start us out in a unified but broad direction. (I have a fear > > > > of narrow approaches. I think hackers work best when working on their > > > > own, but in collaborative groups --Just my take is all). > > > > > > > > - - - - > > > > > > > > 1. Set up a lot of cross linked and badged sites for our projects. A > > > > sort of BadVista Ring, we already have enough of us to make a good > > > > core. This diversifies the reach of our project, and helps all the Ring > > > > sites gain Google rank. > > > > > > > > 2. Each site should "do it's own thing", but use heavy cross linkage to > > > > other sites (within the Ring - so there is a cohesive wholeness to the > > > > links) to show aspects that any one site is not delving into as deeply > > > > as the linked to site is, for that particular subject. This gives us > > > > the ability to coordinate both sites to play well off the strengths of > > > > the other site - because we have a back end communication that is not > > > > apparent to the visitor. > > > > > > > > Among our Ring sites, I would encourage deep linking, as well as just > > > > linking to the home page. Let the Ring links do the home pages, let > > > > deep links do the internal work of leading people around. Use "open in > > > > a new window (tab)" so the visitor does not lose where he was. > > > > > > > > 3. For that back end communication we need a wiki for resource > > > > management and a board much like Slashdot only without the vote system > > > > (actually the Bruce Perens Technocrat.net site does just what I have in > > > > mind). That way we can track separate subjects and proposals by > > > > individual - and reply in a cogent manner, instead of what we are doing > > > > now. > > > > > > > > 4. We link back to BadVista.org, of course, but mostly we try to use > > > > this mail list as a recruiting ground for more participants, and > > > > general pointing out new sites and findings. That gives us the drawing > > > > power of the FSF to find ever more adherents to the cause. Of course we > > > > advocate joining the BadVista Advocate program (and the FSF!), and > > > > provide links to the > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate and FSF.org sites for > > > > those that wish to take part, at whatever level. > > > > > > > > 5. We need to link heavily to already existing sites that cover much of > > > > the ground that there is little point in our repeating. With luck > > > > eventually some of them will link back to our sites. > > > > > > > > 6. I do not think we need to pick a particular Distro, or try to create > > > > our own. But I do think we should all use one or two Distros like > > > > gNewSense (it is a Distro, you can download the ISO from here if you > > > > want): > > > > http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/Features --but it is also more then just > > > > a Distro, because you can use Builder and create a Distro to your > > > > liking. > > > > > > > > This does not mean limiting your self to just gNewSense, or any > > > > particular Distro, just that we all should use some agreed on totally > > > > Free Distro, like gNewSense, as our shared Distro for explanations when > > > > ever we are working the notion of Free Software into our pages. > > > > > > > > Links and excerpts from the GNU philosophy pages would go well at the > > > > appropriate points. > > > > > > > > 7. Also one might consider showing off http://www.lnx-bbc.com/ it is > > > > the way the FSF Associate Membership Cards are done (an entire > > > > GNU/Linux mini distro on a business card sized (and shape) CD. > > > > > > > > 8. We should actually introduce the players and explain what they do > > > > and how they work to create the entity generally known as GNU/Linux. > > > > > > > > By this I mean start with the Logos. Like the KDE dragon Konqi, the > > > > Gnome foot print, the GNU GNU, the Linux penguin (Tux), and so on. > > > > > > > > Do lightweight intros into what each of those projects are, and where > > > > they fit in the scheme of things. Link to another persons site on the > > > > Ring that is doing a more in depth look at what ever your not going > > > > into in depth, like if you are a Gnome user, link to a KDE users site > > > > (or several of the RING sites) in your description of KDE. Deep link as > > > > required in descriptions of each project, to other Ring members sites. > > > > > > > > A sort of distributed attack on the perception problem, make it fun and > > > > educational. And I think each of us probably can, and does, reach a > > > > different segment of end users that we each can present stuff to as > > > > fun. Lets try to use that diversity, with a combined strategy. > > > > > > > > That way we can use our expertise to good instruction, and feel free to > > > > talk about your favorite Distro... just always return to the shared > > > > pure GNU/Linux Distro of choice (like gNewSense) as the example of > > > > totally Free Software. > > > > > > > > A pragmatic method, but consistently pointed at Free Software as the > > > > ultimate goal. > > > > > > > > 9. Along the way, without making a big deal out of it, slip in little > > > > things like how Vista does not allow you to control things like how you > > > > interface with your own computer. Explain why it's so much more useful > > > > to be able to change things, or have a community to ask for changes, > > > > rather then just being at the mercy of one monopoly. The ***AA's are a > > > > monopolistic group too, not just Microsoft. > > > > > > > > Easy segueway into why DRM is harmful, why Treacherous Computing is > > > > dangerous. > > > > > > > > 10. Have ever more layered pages that go into these subjects in more > > > > depth, if the visitor wishes to follow up on some point you have made. > > > > > > > > BIG DISCLAIMER: I'm no good at jazzy web sites, and I don't know much > > > > about marketing. These are just things --Starting points, for a > > > > possible road to follow. > > > > > > > > There have been so many good ideas tossed out already that I am a bit > > > > overwhelmed, so this is actually a sort of outline to bring our efforts > > > > into some cohesive form. > > > > > > > > I read at least one person that said he'd managed to explain what an > > > > API was to a pointy haired boss, I'll bet he and all you people can > > > > improve on my little list. Probably in ways I'd never imagine. > > > > > > > > So this is more like a RFC, if you will. > > > > > > > > So bring on the comments. > > > > > > > > Don. > > > > -- > > > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Advocate mailing list > > > > Advocate at badvista.org > > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > -- > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 00:05:59 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:05:59 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: > I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know > that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista, > specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable? I strongly disagree that Mac is better than Vista, both are equally proprietary that denies their users basic freedoms. Switching would just mean serving a different master. Thus, including Mac would highlight to the public that it is as bad as Vista. We do not want people to abandon Vista just to see them switching to Mac, do we? Anyway, if we are going to produce a spoof, I suggest sticking to the original theme of the "Mac" advertisement since they are already famous. A cast of 2 men and 1 woman a la Novell spoofs works wonder since the viewers could immediately see the difference. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 00:17:57 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:17:57 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704282000u7e933a59ofd0350fa11cac39f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <4633C119.6000001@gmail.com> <3922422b0704282000u7e933a59ofd0350fa11cac39f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It would take some time before gNewSense can mature from Ubuntu, just as Ubuntu matures from Debian. However, we must never insist on running the latest version of any software if it takes away our freedom. We can now recommend gNewSense 1.1 as it is currently very much usable. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From sunnzy at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 00:20:08 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:20:08 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: Well I think another spoof isn't exactly the best thing. Sure, there will watch it for entertainment, but when there is spoofs of spoofs of spoofs, people won't take this particular seriously and will be a waste effort to promo free software. And I don't entirely agree that Macs are as bad as Microsoft. Yes they have quite a lot of propriety software running on top of the system but at least they have the base of the operating system open. And they use open standards a lot more than Microsoft. Anyway if this ad were to go with the original plot then the kid would eventually be "saved" by GNU anyway, so defaulting GNU/Linux as the solution. And I don't think it is good to push free distros like gNewSense to Windows switchers... the world is still flooded with closed standards which people may be still dependent on, there needs to be a somewhat "smooth" transition, where people start to use free software based systems, then move their closed standards to more open standards, then finally switch to a totally free environment. What I mostly meant by open and close standards are file formats. 2007/4/29, Koh Choon Lin : > > I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know > > that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista, > > specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable? > > I strongly disagree that Mac is better than Vista, both are equally > proprietary that denies their users basic freedoms. Switching would > just mean serving a different master. Thus, including Mac would > highlight to the public that it is as bad as Vista. We do not want > people to abandon Vista just to see them switching to Mac, do we? > > Anyway, if we are going to produce a spoof, I suggest sticking to the > original theme of the "Mac" advertisement since they are already > famous. A cast of 2 men and 1 woman a la Novell spoofs works wonder > since the viewers could immediately see the difference. > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 00:46:42 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:46:42 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Marketing Campaign In-Reply-To: <200704281428.56479.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704281428.56479.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: > And that's is my point: How do we deal with end user perception? Modern Operating Systems (OSs) have now become so transparent that its users might not realize what they are using! As you had rightly pointed out, our campaign would also involve the community to highlight the differences between the OSs (not just the GUI) and the dangers of DRM, T&Cs, etc... Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 09:34:40 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:04:40 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> <20070428160357.675e424c@localhost> Message-ID: I thought mandriva had an 'open' version. I just said those distros because they are easy for a newbie (I'm using debian testing on my computer). And I think Mepis will be good (with all of it's multimedia support), I just gave a mepis cd to a guy to introduce him to linux :) so what do you think mepis is good right ? cheers On 4/28/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > > > It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about > > > vista in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the > > > geeky image out of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an > > > introduction to non-geeky distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, > > > Ubuntu, Kubuntu). > > > > That'd be good, but we should drop SUSE from the list, as Novell is now > > linked to Microsoft. > > > Actually, I am in favor of dropping all of them since none is an > ethically free distribution. > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/4f9fe50a/attachment.htm From ninuxpdb at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 09:38:58 2007 From: ninuxpdb at gmail.com (paolo del bene) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:38:58 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] gnu/linux Message-ID: <7dc12d290704290638p5c405cb3kdd707e0090e63547@mail.gmail.com> my name is paolo del bene, for all the people known as pdb, i use gnu/linux from 2002, i am happy to use it, i have not any restriction that not free software has. the free software give me many possibilities which i could not have with not free software. for example i have no money to give to bill gates and others, but the question is not only money, but the freedom to use the software as any person want. the freeom to copy, make changes, to modify, to distribute any person, organization, to sell to create manuals, guides under the terms of gnu free documentation license, but the more important think is to be part of a community of hackers interested to create softwares and any other think to give people the freedom. when we think to the software we must think to the developers which 90% of times they work gratis or they receive few contributes. i am not interested to create a second microsoft, but to give anyone the right for their job. receives contributes is a way to give to the developers the possibility to continue to mantain opened the job, to mantain dsl, harware and to the end is right to be paid the right for the job, but if i want to give my job for free and gratis any have the possibility to use it and there is not any other license that give you the freedom to do this, so possibly use the gnu general public license gnu gpl. happy hacking pdb From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 09:41:57 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:11:57 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's mainly not about bugs in windows software, it's about restrictions to the users, DRM, trusted computing etc. windows software has always been buggy right ? cheers On 4/28/07, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com> wrote: > > Please correct this ridiculous notion: > http://texyt.com/Microsoft+bets+Windows+Vista+fewer+bugs+than+XP+066 > Don't let Microsoft brainwash the media! > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/3b1faa28/attachment-0001.htm From mjj at syntaktisk.dk Sun Apr 29 09:52:07 2007 From: mjj at syntaktisk.dk (Morten Juhl Johansen) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:52:07 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4634A307.70707@syntaktisk.dk> Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: > It's mainly not about bugs in windows software, it's about restrictions > to the users, DRM, trusted computing etc. windows software has always > been buggy right ? Buggy is not exactly a subjective parameter, either. I used KDE earlier on, and it crashed frequently. Also, the fact that as an Ubuntu user (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) you have to edit xorg.conf manually, if you need a previously unconfigured resolution. The fact that a lot of resolutions are available but not through the graphical interface can be perceived as a bug. Yours, mjjohansen __ http://www.syntaktisk.dk From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 10:31:17 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:01:17 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: <4634A307.70707@syntaktisk.dk> References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <4634A307.70707@syntaktisk.dk> Message-ID: I don't think it can be called as a bug (editing xorg.conf manually) it's the users choice. But this is a use full feature coz then I can make some software's to detect my VGA card as another one :P and makesure that you use the stable version of kde because there are lots of testing and unstable versions, as a testing kde user i didn't had many crashes up to this date. bugs are things that the developers don't know a reason why this is happening If I'm wrong correct me cheers On 4/29/07, Morten Juhl Johansen wrote: > > Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: > > It's mainly not about bugs in windows software, it's about restrictions > > to the users, DRM, trusted computing etc. windows software has always > > been buggy right ? > > Buggy is not exactly a subjective parameter, either. I used KDE earlier > on, and it crashed frequently. Also, the fact that as an Ubuntu user > (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) > you have to edit xorg.conf manually, if you need a previously > unconfigured resolution. The fact that a lot of resolutions are > available but not through the graphical interface can be perceived as a > bug. > > Yours, > mjjohansen > > __ > http://www.syntaktisk.dk > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/02875ce7/attachment.htm From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 11:22:32 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:22:32 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] gnu/linux In-Reply-To: <7dc12d290704290638p5c405cb3kdd707e0090e63547@mail.gmail.com> References: <7dc12d290704290638p5c405cb3kdd707e0090e63547@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704290822.32528.Don@donhensley.com> Hi pdb, Nice to have you on board. Yes, the whole GPL and GNU project can easily be described as a labor of love. Or as the result of one person scratching their own itch, and sharing the relief with everyone. Either way it is about community. Which is the underling problem with Microsoft's latest evil creation==Vista. It is about many things, but community is not one of them. DRM and Treacherous Computing are about the death of community. They serve only to isolate every one from the other. That is their entire function. They are NOT about protecting "rights" they are about destroying the most basic of human traits, that of being part of a community. It's what we humans do. Community is more then a 'right', it is an inseparable part of what it is to be human, it's in your blood and bone, meat and brain, heart and soul. I will share a little bit from one of my favorite people "John Locke" (you can read more about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke Among many other things, he said (I'm paraphrasing for simplicity): "In the beginning people could drink from the streams, eat of the fruit from the trees, and wake and sleep when and as they chose. Then one day a person came along and said 'These are MY trees, and you must pick the fruit from them for me. If you do so then I will pay you enough fruit back for your labor to feed you'. He said this even though he had no greater (or lessor) claim on the trees then did anyone else, for the trees belonged to all of human kind. Now the error was not in the person that claimed all the trees for himself, for to be master of all you can is also a human trait. The error was in those people that listened to him and started picking fruit for him, for they willingly became slaves." John Locke was a really smart guy. So the error is not that Vista wishes to lock things up so it becomes a Vista only world, the error would be in believing in that approach and starting to believe that something that really belongs to us all --algorithms and the way in which those algorithms are implemented, might actually be individual property. This is nothing less then patenting and/or trying to control our use of numbers and the methods of manipulating them - from addition to calculus, and realms as yet undiscovered. Buying into Vista is buying into the notion that something we all own (as in John Locke's fruit trees), can somehow actually be the 'property' of any one man or controlling group. It is our human heritage to explore new realms, let no man take from you the tools for doing so. And software patents, DRM, Treacherous Computing, and so on, are but ways to deny you that which makes you a free human. So yes pdb, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for your labor --so long as you retain the right to also give it away, for ultimately your labor must belong to you alone. Any other way of looking at who owns your labor involves slavery. Be Free, Stay Free... and joining the FSF isn't a bad way to help that cause (I just could not resist that little plug). Don. ******************************************** On Sunday 29 April 2007 06:38 am, paolo del bene wrote: my name is paolo del bene, for all the people known as pdb, i use gnu/linux from 2002, i am happy to use it, i have not any restriction that not free software has. the free software give me many possibilities which i could not have with not free software. for example i have no money to give to bill gates and others, but the question is not only money, but the freedom to use the software as any person want. the freeom to copy, make changes, to modify, to distribute any person, organization, to sell to create manuals, guides under the terms of gnu free documentation license, but the more important think is to be part of a community of hackers interested to create softwares and any other think to give people the freedom. when we think to the software we must think to the developers which 90% of times they work gratis or they receive few contributes. i am not interested to create a second microsoft, but to give anyone the right for their job. receives contributes is a way to give to the developers the possibility to continue to mantain opened the job, to mantain dsl, harware and to the end is right to be paid the right for the job, but if i want to give my job for free and gratis any have the possibility to use it and there is not any other license that give you the freedom to do this, so possibly use the gnu general public license gnu gpl. happy hacking pdb _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 11:55:44 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:55:44 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] gnu/linux In-Reply-To: <200704290822.32528.Don@donhensley.com> References: <7dc12d290704290638p5c405cb3kdd707e0090e63547@mail.gmail.com> <200704290822.32528.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: > DRM and Treacherous Computing are about the death of community. They serve > only to isolate every one from the other. That is their entire function. With DRM included in Vista, you are not in control of your computer. Your computer will keep connecting to Microsoft to download new instructions to follow. Your PC is obeying them, not you! Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From ninuxpdb at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 12:57:36 2007 From: ninuxpdb at gmail.com (paolo del bene) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:57:36 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Advocate Digest, Vol 1, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7dc12d290704290957n206a937cl326ed5d63fa78a73@mail.gmail.com> hi, my name is paolo del bene and for many known as pdb, as you can see i am italian, so i do not write correctly, please think to me as a person that has studied english at school as 2 language and as 3 french. after this, i want say that i think to nano-soft as an empire which want put on all the computers shit-ozz svista. i think that is not more our problem, people are free to understand what is better, we must only say that gnu/hurd, gnu/linux and gnu/kfreebsd give people the freedom to use the computers and the programs as they want , that we have not problems of virus, we offer people the possibility to be part of a community of hackers interested to create softwares. for example in our community of wi-fi http://ninux.org we got a guy he has 14 years old and just is a programmer, he uses gnu/linux. as rms just said in the dvd revolution-os 2 there are guys interested to known what is really happening in the computer, but if they use not free software the teacher can't help him, one because the informations are under copyright 2 because he is not authorized, but if he uses free software the teacher can say him, you got the source code. now when you see the source code for the first time, you are not able to modify or write source code, but if you read many source code of third people you understood how to work, and step by step you became a good programmer. this is the only way to teach guys, and a day that guys teach their sons to program or they teach to others guys in the schools/university, public administration, or government, national security.... . this is important to form a community and understood the the informations must be diffused. these are the good things to have a good society, yesterday evening i was looking the movie the little princess, and for a moment i am turned back to think to my life of child, i have always lived thinking to the future and how could be important to became anyone in the life. today i think how is difficult remain as i was young. why to change ? why became anyone in the life ? i wanna be asked as nicknamenobody. i thank you for your immediatly reply, and please excuse me, if my english is no good. best faithfully pdb nickname nobody 2007/4/29, advocate-request at badvista.org : > Send Advocate mailing list submissions to > advocate at badvista.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > advocate-request at badvista.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > advocate-owner at badvista.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Advocate digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" > (Morten Juhl Johansen) > 2. Re: Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" > (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) > 3. Re: gnu/linux (Don Hensley) > 4. Re: gnu/linux (Koh Choon Lin) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:52:07 +0200 > From: Morten Juhl Johansen > Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs > than XP" > To: "BadVista.org Advocacy" > Message-ID: <4634A307.70707 at syntaktisk.dk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: > > It's mainly not about bugs in windows software, it's about restrictions > > to the users, DRM, trusted computing etc. windows software has always > > been buggy right ? > > Buggy is not exactly a subjective parameter, either. I used KDE earlier > on, and it crashed frequently. Also, the fact that as an Ubuntu user > (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) > you have to edit xorg.conf manually, if you need a previously > unconfigured resolution. The fact that a lot of resolutions are > available but not through the graphical interface can be perceived as a bug. > > Yours, > mjjohansen > > __ > http://www.syntaktisk.dk > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:01:17 +0530 > From: "Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi" > Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs > than XP" > To: "BadVista.org Advocacy" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I don't think it can be called as a bug (editing xorg.conf manually) it's > the users choice. But this is a use full feature coz then I can make some > software's to detect my VGA card as another one :P > > and makesure that you use the stable version of kde because there are lots > of testing and unstable versions, as a testing kde user i didn't had many > crashes up to this date. bugs are things that the developers don't know a > reason why this is happening > > If I'm wrong correct me > > cheers > > On 4/29/07, Morten Juhl Johansen wrote: > > > > Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: > > > It's mainly not about bugs in windows software, it's about restrictions > > > to the users, DRM, trusted computing etc. windows software has always > > > been buggy right ? > > > > Buggy is not exactly a subjective parameter, either. I used KDE earlier > > on, and it crashed frequently. Also, the fact that as an Ubuntu user > > (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) > > you have to edit xorg.conf manually, if you need a previously > > unconfigured resolution. The fact that a lot of resolutions are > > available but not through the graphical interface can be perceived as a > > bug. > > > > Yours, > > mjjohansen > > > > __ > > http://www.syntaktisk.dk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/02875ce7/attachment.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:22:32 -0700 > From: Don Hensley > Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] gnu/linux > To: "BadVista.org Advocacy" > Message-ID: <200704290822.32528.Don at donhensley.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Hi pdb, > Nice to have you on board. Yes, the whole GPL and GNU project can easily be > described as a labor of love. Or as the result of one person scratching > their > own itch, and sharing the relief with everyone. > > Either way it is about community. > > Which is the underling problem with Microsoft's latest evil creation==Vista. > It is about many things, but community is not one of them. > > DRM and Treacherous Computing are about the death of community. They serve > only to isolate every one from the other. That is their entire function. > > They are NOT about protecting "rights" they are about destroying the most > basic of human traits, that of being part of a community. It's what we > humans > do. Community is more then a 'right', it is an inseparable part of what it > is to be human, it's in your blood and bone, meat and brain, heart and soul. > > I will share a little bit from one of my favorite people "John Locke" (you > can > read more about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke > > Among many other things, he said (I'm paraphrasing for simplicity): > > "In the beginning people could drink from the streams, eat of the fruit from > the trees, and wake and sleep when and as they chose. Then one day a person > came along and said 'These are MY trees, and you must pick the fruit from > them for me. If you do so then I will pay you enough fruit back for your > labor to feed you'. He said this even though he had no greater (or lessor) > claim on the trees then did anyone else, for the trees belonged to all of > human kind. Now the error was not in the person that claimed all the trees > for himself, for to be master of all you can is also a human trait. The > error > was in those people that listened to him and started picking fruit for him, > for they willingly became slaves." > > John Locke was a really smart guy. So the error is not that Vista wishes to > lock things up so it becomes a Vista only world, the error would be in > believing in that approach and starting to believe that something that > really > belongs to us all --algorithms and the way in which those algorithms are > implemented, might actually be individual property. This is nothing less > then > patenting and/or trying to control our use of numbers and the methods of > manipulating them - from addition to calculus, and realms as yet > undiscovered. > > Buying into Vista is buying into the notion that something we all own (as in > John Locke's fruit trees), can somehow actually be the 'property' of any one > man or controlling group. > > It is our human heritage to explore new realms, let no man take from you the > tools for doing so. And software patents, DRM, Treacherous Computing, and so > on, are but ways to deny you that which makes you a free human. > > So yes pdb, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for your labor --so > long > as you retain the right to also give it away, for ultimately your labor must > belong to you alone. > > Any other way of looking at who owns your labor involves slavery. Be Free, > Stay Free... and joining the FSF isn't a bad way to help that cause (I just > could not resist that little plug). > > Don. > ******************************************** > On Sunday 29 April 2007 06:38 am, paolo del bene wrote: > my name is paolo del bene, for all the people known as pdb, i use > gnu/linux from > 2002, i am happy to use it, i have not any restriction that not free > software has. > the free software give me many possibilities which i could not have > with not free software. for example i have no money to give to bill > gates and others, but the question is not only money, but the freedom > to use the software as any person want. the freeom to copy, make > changes, to modify, to distribute any person, organization, to sell to > create manuals, guides under the terms of gnu free documentation > license, but the more important think is to be part of a community of > hackers interested to create softwares and any other think to give > people the freedom. when we think to the software we must think to the > developers which 90% of times they work gratis or they receive few > contributes. i am not interested to create a second microsoft, but to > give anyone the right for their job. receives contributes is a way to > give to the developers the possibility to continue to mantain opened > the job, to mantain dsl, harware and to the end is right to be paid > the right for the job, but if i want to give my job for free and > gratis any have the possibility to use it and there is not any other > license that give you the freedom to do this, so possibly use the gnu > general public license gnu gpl. > > happy hacking > > pdb > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:55:44 +0800 > From: "Koh Choon Lin" > Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] gnu/linux > To: "BadVista.org Advocacy" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > DRM and Treacherous Computing are about the death of community. They serve > > only to isolate every one from the other. That is their entire function. > > With DRM included in Vista, you are not in control of your computer. > Your computer will keep connecting to Microsoft to download new > instructions to follow. Your PC is obeying them, not you! > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > End of Advocate Digest, Vol 1, Issue 17 > *************************************** > From ninuxpdb at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 13:09:48 2007 From: ninuxpdb at gmail.com (paolo del bene) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:09:48 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Advocate Digest, Vol 1, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <7dc12d290704290957n206a937cl326ed5d63fa78a73@mail.gmail.com> References: <7dc12d290704290957n206a937cl326ed5d63fa78a73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7dc12d290704291009r64341df2n16c74b15e092d4a3@mail.gmail.com> please think to shit-ozz as a virus not as an operating system, and so all the problems are finished. operating system are others things: not free software (multics, unix, its, vms, mvs, irix ) free software (gnu/linux gnu/hurd, gnu/kfreebsd),these are operating system (shit-ozz is a joke) and is a virus bye bye pdb 2007/4/29, paolo del bene : > hi, my name is paolo del bene and for many known as pdb, as you can see i am > italian, so i do not write correctly, please think to me as a person > that has studied english at school as 2 language and as 3 french. > after this, i want say that i think > to nano-soft as an empire which want put on all the computers shit-ozz > svista. > i think that is not more our problem, people are free to understand > what is better, we must only say that gnu/hurd, gnu/linux and > gnu/kfreebsd give people the freedom to > use the computers and the programs as they want , that we have not > problems of virus, we offer people the possibility to be part of a > community of hackers interested to create softwares. for example in > our community of wi-fi http://ninux.org we got a guy he has 14 years > old and just is a programmer, he uses gnu/linux. > as rms just said in the dvd revolution-os 2 there are guys interested > to known what is really happening in the computer, but if they use not > free software the teacher can't help him, one because the informations > are under copyright 2 because he is not authorized, but if he uses > free software the teacher can say him, you got the source code. now > when you see the source code for the first time, you are not able to > modify or write source code, but if you read many source code of third > people > you understood how to work, and step by step you became a good programmer. > this is the only way to teach guys, and a day that guys teach their > sons to program or they teach to others guys in the > schools/university, public administration, or government, national > security.... . this is important to form a community and understood > the the informations must be diffused. > > these are the good things to have a good society, > > yesterday evening i was looking the movie the little princess, and for > a moment i > am turned back to think to my life of child, i have always lived > thinking to the future > and how could be important to became anyone in the life. today i think > how is difficult remain as i was young. why to change ? why became > anyone in the life ? > i wanna be asked as nicknamenobody. > > i thank you for your immediatly reply, and please excuse me, if my > english is no good. > > best faithfully > pdb > nickname nobody > > > 2007/4/29, advocate-request at badvista.org : > > Send Advocate mailing list submissions to > > advocate at badvista.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > advocate-request at badvista.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > advocate-owner at badvista.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Advocate digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" > > (Morten Juhl Johansen) > > 2. Re: Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" > > (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) > > 3. Re: gnu/linux (Don Hensley) > > 4. Re: gnu/linux (Koh Choon Lin) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:52:07 +0200 > > From: Morten Juhl Johansen > > Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs > > than XP" > > To: "BadVista.org Advocacy" > > Message-ID: <4634A307.70707 at syntaktisk.dk> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: > > > It's mainly not about bugs in windows software, it's about restrictions > > > to the users, DRM, trusted computing etc. windows software has always > > > been buggy right ? > > > > Buggy is not exactly a subjective parameter, either. I used KDE earlier > > on, and it crashed frequently. Also, the fact that as an Ubuntu user > > (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) > > you have to edit xorg.conf manually, if you need a previously > > unconfigured resolution. The fact that a lot of resolutions are > > available but not through the graphical interface can be perceived as a > bug. > > > > Yours, > > mjjohansen > > > > __ > > http://www.syntaktisk.dk > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:01:17 +0530 > > From: "Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi" > > Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs > > than XP" > > To: "BadVista.org Advocacy" > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > I don't think it can be called as a bug (editing xorg.conf manually) it's > > the users choice. But this is a use full feature coz then I can make some > > software's to detect my VGA card as another one :P > > > > and makesure that you use the stable version of kde because there are lots > > of testing and unstable versions, as a testing kde user i didn't had many > > crashes up to this date. bugs are things that the developers don't know a > > reason why this is happening > > > > If I'm wrong correct me > > > > cheers > > > > On 4/29/07, Morten Juhl Johansen wrote: > > > > > > Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: > > > > It's mainly not about bugs in windows software, it's about > restrictions > > > > to the users, DRM, trusted computing etc. windows software has always > > > > been buggy right ? > > > > > > Buggy is not exactly a subjective parameter, either. I used KDE earlier > > > on, and it crashed frequently. Also, the fact that as an Ubuntu user > > > (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) > > > you have to edit xorg.conf manually, if you need a previously > > > unconfigured resolution. The fact that a lot of resolutions are > > > available but not through the graphical interface can be perceived as a > > > bug. > > > > > > Yours, > > > mjjohansen > > > > > > __ > > > http://www.syntaktisk.dk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Advocate mailing list > > > Advocate at badvista.org > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/02875ce7/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:22:32 -0700 > > From: Don Hensley > > Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] gnu/linux > > To: "BadVista.org Advocacy" > > Message-ID: <200704290822.32528.Don at donhensley.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > Hi pdb, > > Nice to have you on board. Yes, the whole GPL and GNU project can easily > be > > described as a labor of love. Or as the result of one person scratching > > their > > own itch, and sharing the relief with everyone. > > > > Either way it is about community. > > > > Which is the underling problem with Microsoft's latest evil > creation==Vista. > > It is about many things, but community is not one of them. > > > > DRM and Treacherous Computing are about the death of community. They serve > > only to isolate every one from the other. That is their entire function. > > > > They are NOT about protecting "rights" they are about destroying the most > > basic of human traits, that of being part of a community. It's what we > > humans > > do. Community is more then a 'right', it is an inseparable part of what > it > > is to be human, it's in your blood and bone, meat and brain, heart and > soul. > > > > I will share a little bit from one of my favorite people "John Locke" (you > > can > > read more about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke > > > > Among many other things, he said (I'm paraphrasing for simplicity): > > > > "In the beginning people could drink from the streams, eat of the fruit > from > > the trees, and wake and sleep when and as they chose. Then one day a > person > > came along and said 'These are MY trees, and you must pick the fruit from > > them for me. If you do so then I will pay you enough fruit back for your > > labor to feed you'. He said this even though he had no greater (or lessor) > > claim on the trees then did anyone else, for the trees belonged to all of > > human kind. Now the error was not in the person that claimed all the trees > > for himself, for to be master of all you can is also a human trait. The > > error > > was in those people that listened to him and started picking fruit for > him, > > for they willingly became slaves." > > > > John Locke was a really smart guy. So the error is not that Vista wishes > to > > lock things up so it becomes a Vista only world, the error would be in > > believing in that approach and starting to believe that something that > > really > > belongs to us all --algorithms and the way in which those algorithms are > > implemented, might actually be individual property. This is nothing less > > then > > patenting and/or trying to control our use of numbers and the methods of > > manipulating them - from addition to calculus, and realms as yet > > undiscovered. > > > > Buying into Vista is buying into the notion that something we all own (as > in > > John Locke's fruit trees), can somehow actually be the 'property' of any > one > > man or controlling group. > > > > It is our human heritage to explore new realms, let no man take from you > the > > tools for doing so. And software patents, DRM, Treacherous Computing, and > so > > on, are but ways to deny you that which makes you a free human. > > > > So yes pdb, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for your labor --so > > long > > as you retain the right to also give it away, for ultimately your labor > must > > belong to you alone. > > > > Any other way of looking at who owns your labor involves slavery. Be Free, > > Stay Free... and joining the FSF isn't a bad way to help that cause (I > just > > could not resist that little plug). > > > > Don. > > ******************************************** > > On Sunday 29 April 2007 06:38 am, paolo del bene wrote: > > my name is paolo del bene, for all the people known as pdb, i use > > gnu/linux from > > 2002, i am happy to use it, i have not any restriction that not free > > software has. > > the free software give me many possibilities which i could not have > > with not free software. for example i have no money to give to bill > > gates and others, but the question is not only money, but the freedom > > to use the software as any person want. the freeom to copy, make > > changes, to modify, to distribute any person, organization, to sell to > > create manuals, guides under the terms of gnu free documentation > > license, but the more important think is to be part of a community of > > hackers interested to create softwares and any other think to give > > people the freedom. when we think to the software we must think to the > > developers which 90% of times they work gratis or they receive few > > contributes. i am not interested to create a second microsoft, but to > > give anyone the right for their job. receives contributes is a way to > > give to the developers the possibility to continue to mantain opened > > the job, to mantain dsl, harware and to the end is right to be paid > > the right for the job, but if i want to give my job for free and > > gratis any have the possibility to use it and there is not any other > > license that give you the freedom to do this, so possibly use the gnu > > general public license gnu gpl. > > > > happy hacking > > > > pdb > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > -- > > GNU/Linux is the future. > > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:55:44 +0800 > > From: "Koh Choon Lin" > > Subject: Re: [BadVista Advocate] gnu/linux > > To: "BadVista.org Advocacy" > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > > DRM and Treacherous Computing are about the death of community. They > serve > > > only to isolate every one from the other. That is their entire function. > > > > With DRM included in Vista, you are not in control of your computer. > > Your computer will keep connecting to Microsoft to download new > > instructions to follow. Your PC is obeying them, not you! > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Koh Choon Lin > > Singapore GNU Group > > > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > > End of Advocate Digest, Vol 1, Issue 17 > > *************************************** > > > From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 13:48:39 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:48:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <4633C242.9030105@gmail.com> References: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <4633C242.9030105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <35517.192.168.1.1.1177868919.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> True, but remember that we are against Vista. Mac and Windows XP are not free software, and using them will be a big step in the wrong direction, but if we try to stretch our focus too far, we will have too many technical details to worry about. I'm just saying that we don't want to spread our efforts thin. Focus on Vista. The rest will fall into place. Jacob > badvista.org's home page title: > "Stopping Microsoft Windows Vista adoption by promoting free software" > > although, I think in the first step people should be reminded that they > are going a step backward even compared to other non-free alternatives, > such as Mac or Windows XP. > > Homayoon > > Jacob Maynard wrote: >> I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know >> that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista, >> specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable? >> >> Jacob >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From foetsch at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 14:12:10 2007 From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners Message-ID: <879057.39344.qm@web35812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mostafa Razavi wrote: > Concerning gNewSense, and other FSF-approved distros, if anyone has > experiences working with them, please let us know about their advantages > and problems. I'm using gNewSense exclusively. It's basically Ubuntu 6.06 with all the proprietary bits removed. (And those that aren't removed yet are on the gNewSense bug list.) The advantage is that it's entirely free. I used Ubuntu before and I didn't install binary drivers there either, or use Sun Java, or Flash. I just wanted to see whether my hardware works if there are no binary blobs at all. The switch didn't make a huge difference for my daily work--everything that worked before still works; everything that didn't just continues not to work. ;-) For me, there is no disadvantage, as I don't consider it a problem of gNewSense when web sites don't support free media formats, or when hardware vendors don't open up their specifications. I can't use the 3D capabilities of my nVidia graphics card, for example, but I couldn't do that with any other distro and keep a straight face while supporting free software. Kind Regards, M.F. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From foetsch at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 14:13:37 2007 From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC Message-ID: <700683.53373.qm@web35805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ringo Kamens wrote: > Update: There is a page on the BinaryFreedom wiki here: > http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy > Please update it/add more information. Let's turn this plan into reality! Great! I guess it's time to get some work done... Kind Regards, M.F. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From foetsch at yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 14:24:21 2007 From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC Message-ID: <568322.57073.qm@web35805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Don Hensley wrote: > 5. We need to link heavily to already existing sites that cover much of the > ground that there is little point in our repeating. With luck eventually some > of them will link back to our sites. Yep, no need to duplicate. Too much information overwhelms new users anyway. Let's concentrate on setting the mood for GNU/Linux. > There have been so many good ideas tossed out already that I am a bit > overwhelmed, so this is actually a sort of outline to bring our efforts into > some cohesive form. This is exactly what was needed to get this going. I really appreciate your taking the initiative! Kind Regards, M.F. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tibabenfortlapalanca at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 15:29:00 2007 From: tibabenfortlapalanca at gmail.com (Tibacions Encepatils) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:29:00 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Message-ID: Hi all, My name's Bernat and I'm new to this list. I've just read today's posts and I found a comment about Ubuntu which I don't completely understand, I'll quote it: ?(...) as an Ubuntu user (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) (...)?. What's the matter with Ubuntu, why do some people consider it as a non-free O/S? As far as I know, the system comes exclusively with free software. Was I mistaken, could somebody correct me? Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/1a9a5281/attachment.htm From 2600denver at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 15:31:16 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:31:16 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3922422b0704291231n5bdeb0dew15e40472a4b6e763@mail.gmail.com> Ubuntu does have proprietary drivers included in their repositories as well as codecs for patent-laden formats like mp3. The official Linux kernel (which Ubuntu uses) also has binary-only (no corresponding source code available) segments for hardware support. Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/29/07, Tibacions Encepatils wrote: > Hi all, > > My name's Bernat and I'm new to this list. > > I've just read today's posts and I found a comment about Ubuntu which I > don't completely understand, I'll quote it: ?(...) as an Ubuntu user (which > is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) (...)?. > > What's the matter with Ubuntu, why do some people consider it as a non-free > O/S? As far as I know, the system comes exclusively with free software. Was > I mistaken, could somebody correct me? > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > From sunnzy at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 15:35:07 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 05:35:07 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704291231n5bdeb0dew15e40472a4b6e763@mail.gmail.com> References: <3922422b0704291231n5bdeb0dew15e40472a4b6e763@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ubuntu has restricted driver modules installed in the default kernel. Howver, I find the available codecs on repository a moot point. You can install propriety codecs on any free-only distro even gNewsense, repository merely makes it easier. 2007/4/30, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com>: > Ubuntu does have proprietary drivers included in their repositories as > well as codecs for patent-laden formats like mp3. The official Linux > kernel (which Ubuntu uses) also has binary-only (no corresponding > source code available) segments for hardware support. > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > On 4/29/07, Tibacions Encepatils wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > My name's Bernat and I'm new to this list. > > > > I've just read today's posts and I found a comment about Ubuntu which I > > don't completely understand, I'll quote it: ?(...) as an Ubuntu user (which > > is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) (...)?. > > > > What's the matter with Ubuntu, why do some people consider it as a non-free > > O/S? As far as I know, the system comes exclusively with free software. Was > > I mistaken, could somebody correct me? > > > > Thanks! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From 2600denver at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 15:42:58 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:42:58 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: <3922422b0704291231n5bdeb0dew15e40472a4b6e763@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704291242p2e05ffd0oc06884fcccca1313@mail.gmail.com> Having software in the repositories doesn't bother me but it does bother others. In particular though, ubuntu maintains fairly lax rules on what can leave restricted and go into the community maintained repositories. I use Ubuntu because as much as I love truly free distributions like gnewsense, some of my computers require proprietary drivers to function. Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/29/07, Sunnz wrote: > Ubuntu has restricted driver modules installed in the default kernel. > > Howver, I find the available codecs on repository a moot point. You > can install propriety codecs on any free-only distro even gNewsense, > repository merely makes it easier. > > 2007/4/30, Ringo Kamens <2600denver at gmail.com>: > > Ubuntu does have proprietary drivers included in their repositories as > > well as codecs for patent-laden formats like mp3. The official Linux > > kernel (which Ubuntu uses) also has binary-only (no corresponding > > source code available) segments for hardware support. > > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > > > On 4/29/07, Tibacions Encepatils wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > My name's Bernat and I'm new to this list. > > > > > > I've just read today's posts and I found a comment about Ubuntu which I > > > don't completely understand, I'll quote it: ?(...) as an Ubuntu user (which > > > is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) (...)?. > > > > > > What's the matter with Ubuntu, why do some people consider it as a non-free > > > O/S? As far as I know, the system comes exclusively with free software. Was > > > I mistaken, could somebody correct me? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Advocate mailing list > > > Advocate at badvista.org > > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From shroomling at googlemail.com Sun Apr 29 15:49:15 2007 From: shroomling at googlemail.com (Wayne Moore) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:49:15 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations Message-ID: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, I was thinking that it might be very useful to have the site list some systems, laptops and/or desktop, configurations that will work with 100% free software. The problem I often run into is that many people want to run GNU/Linux but are afraid that some of the hardware they choose might not work. For example, for someone wanting to buy a new machine, it would be great to say go buy one of these [on the list], and your video card / webcam / etc, will just work. Does anyone know of any vendor's prebuilt systems ( e.g. Dell / HP / IBM) that would work? Otherwise, a list of components to build your own desktops would be a good start. I stress that these must work with _only_ free software, as there are many hardware configurations out there that would work well, but _only_ with non-free parts, drivers / firmware / etc. Just a thought, this is something that in my experience has hindered people adopting GNU/Linux as an OS. These are people that are in fact willing to try it out, but want to be sure they're not getting hardware that they cannot use - which eventually drives them back to a proprietary OS. Kind Regards, Wayne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/86de82f9/attachment-0001.htm From mjj at syntaktisk.dk Sun Apr 29 15:51:23 2007 From: mjj at syntaktisk.dk (Morten Juhl Johansen) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:51:23 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704291242p2e05ffd0oc06884fcccca1313@mail.gmail.com> References: <3922422b0704291231n5bdeb0dew15e40472a4b6e763@mail.gmail.com> <3922422b0704291242p2e05ffd0oc06884fcccca1313@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4634F73B.6080305@syntaktisk.dk> Ringo Kamens wrote: > Having software in the repositories doesn't bother me but it does > bother others. In particular though, ubuntu maintains fairly lax rules > on what can leave restricted and go into the community maintained > repositories. I use Ubuntu because as much as I love truly free > distributions like gnewsense, some of my computers require proprietary > drivers to function. > Comrade Ringo Kamens Long story short, the reason I described Ubuntu as a poor example of freedon is the examples mentioned - they are indeed rather willing to go with ESRs approach of first gaining Linux popularity, and while doing this promoting closed drivers for the moment. I find this pointless and damaging, and I think this should be stressed. From 2600denver at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 15:51:41 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:51:41 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3922422b0704291251jc85ff48pcd76e73255b4e26@mail.gmail.com> I'm not sure about this one, but I know system76 (system76.com) sells ubuntu laptops. I'm assuming gnewsense would work on them but I'm not positive. Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/29/07, Wayne Moore wrote: > Hi All, > > I was thinking that it might be very useful to have the site list some > systems, laptops and/or desktop, configurations that will work with 100% > free software. The problem I often run into is that many people want to run > GNU/Linux but are afraid that some of the hardware they choose might not > work. For example, for someone wanting to buy a new machine, it would be > great to say go buy one of these [on the list], and your video card / webcam > / etc, will just work. Does anyone know of any vendor's prebuilt systems ( > e.g. Dell / HP / IBM) that would work? Otherwise, a list of components to > build your own desktops would be a good start. > > I stress that these must work with _only_ free software, as there are many > hardware configurations out there that would work well, but _only_ with > non-free parts, drivers / firmware / etc. > > Just a thought, this is something that in my experience has hindered people > adopting GNU/Linux as an OS. These are people that are in fact willing to > try it out, but want to be sure they're not getting hardware that they > cannot use - which eventually drives them back to a proprietary OS. > > Kind Regards, > Wayne > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > From mjj at syntaktisk.dk Sun Apr 29 15:53:17 2007 From: mjj at syntaktisk.dk (Morten Juhl Johansen) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:53:17 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4634F7AD.8040703@syntaktisk.dk> Wayne Moore wrote: > Hi All, > > I was thinking that it might be very useful to have the site list some > systems, laptops and/or desktop, configurations that will work with 100% > free software. The problem I often run into is that many people want to > run GNU/Linux but are afraid that some of the hardware they choose might > not work. For example, for someone wanting to buy a new machine, it > would be great to say go buy one of these [on the list], and your video > card / webcam / etc, will just work. Does anyone know of any vendor's > prebuilt systems ( e.g. Dell / HP / IBM) that would work? Otherwise, a > list of components to build your own desktops would be a good start. > > I stress that these must work with _only_ free software, as there are > many hardware configurations out there that would work well, but _only_ > with non-free parts, drivers / firmware / etc. > > Just a thought, this is something that in my experience has hindered > people adopting GNU/Linux as an OS. These are people that are in fact > willing to try it out, but want to be sure they're not getting hardware > that they cannot use - which eventually drives them back to a > proprietary OS. > > Kind Regards, > Wayne There is the list at http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw - is it not adequate? Do you suggest something more specific? -mjjohansen From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Sun Apr 29 16:01:28 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:01:28 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <4634F73B.6080305@syntaktisk.dk> References: <3922422b0704291231n5bdeb0dew15e40472a4b6e763@mail.gmail.com> <3922422b0704291242p2e05ffd0oc06884fcccca1313@mail.gmail.com> <4634F73B.6080305@syntaktisk.dk> Message-ID: <4634F998.3070008@binaryfreedom.info> ok very fast, I just got home and I have to run out to play a Football(soccer) game 1. I will wait for Monday to have John Sullivan input on all the items you guys are bringing up before moving forward. 2. the use of proprietary, inside a GNU system or non free distros is *not* an option. people can do whatever they like with their computers but the support and help for this is NULL they will have to find the open source community for this. 3. I read very fast some of the ideas and some are very good, I am also interested in the link chain but you guys are forgetting one issue.. remember there is a *world* outside the computer, badVista and FreeSoftware promotion must be done also outside the internet, like public protest and talk to people face to face.. if we really want to promote FreeSoftware to the people, we need to talk to the people. this is something we do in Binaryfreedom and to have the people from BadVista join us along the world with this will be *great* and encourage. People can skip a website.. but can't skip a sign in front of a Windows Vista party or a meetings.. or a Microsoft or MC OS X meeting... Internet campaigns are very good but we been doing that all along for years.. I think both types of campaigns are needed, both as important. so lets plan something in our local cities/towns also... just my 2 cents. Chris Fernandez BinaryFreedom Founder From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Sun Apr 29 16:03:33 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:03:33 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <4634F73B.6080305@syntaktisk.dk> References: <3922422b0704291231n5bdeb0dew15e40472a4b6e763@mail.gmail.com> <3922422b0704291242p2e05ffd0oc06884fcccca1313@mail.gmail.com> <4634F73B.6080305@syntaktisk.dk> Message-ID: <4634FA15.1040103@binaryfreedom.info> oh yeah someone mentions about a gNEwSEnse of Feisty.. we are working on it. we are not doing huge changes at the moment because we are waiting to see whats going to happen in Sevilla Spain, see what decision Ubuntu is going to take in making their Free distro, after that Paul, Brian, Karl and I are going to meet to discuss further development. From shroomling at googlemail.com Sun Apr 29 16:05:56 2007 From: shroomling at googlemail.com (Wayne Moore) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:05:56 +0100 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <4634F7AD.8040703@syntaktisk.dk> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <4634F7AD.8040703@syntaktisk.dk> Message-ID: <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> On 29/04/07, Morten Juhl Johansen wrote: > > Wayne Moore wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I was thinking that it might be very useful to have the site list some > > systems, laptops and/or desktop, configurations that will work with 100% > > free software. The problem I often run into is that many people want to > > run GNU/Linux but are afraid that some of the hardware they choose might > > not work. For example, for someone wanting to buy a new machine, it > > would be great to say go buy one of these [on the list], and your video > > card / webcam / etc, will just work. Does anyone know of any vendor's > > prebuilt systems ( e.g. Dell / HP / IBM) that would work? Otherwise, a > > list of components to build your own desktops would be a good start. > > > > I stress that these must work with _only_ free software, as there are > > many hardware configurations out there that would work well, but _only_ > > with non-free parts, drivers / firmware / etc. > > > > Just a thought, this is something that in my experience has hindered > > people adopting GNU/Linux as an OS. These are people that are in fact > > willing to try it out, but want to be sure they're not getting hardware > > that they cannot use - which eventually drives them back to a > > proprietary OS. > > > > Kind Regards, > > Wayne > > There is the list at http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw - is it not > adequate? Do you suggest something more specific? > > -mjjohansen I am aware of that list, thanks. While that does help when shopping for components to build your own system, I think it would be very useful to know if there are any "off-the-shelf" systems that the big (or small) hardware vendors sell, that would work with 100% free software - this would help those that cannot build their own systems. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/27d08aa1/attachment.htm From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 16:08:59 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:08:59 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> Hi Bernat, welcome to the list. A fine technical point is brought up here. The key is actually in distribution, not in the binary blobs, per se. That is speaking to the GPL issue about distribution. If you can not provide the source, and allow the source to be modified (and if GPLv3, as of the current draft) you must also be able to run your modified code on the hardware it was designed for - i.e., the TiVo problem. So when a Distro, like Ubuntu or Mandriva, etc. includes binary blobs that do not have source available for them, then that is no longer a totally Free as in Free Software, Distro. However, it is correct that I could load any number of binary blobs in any Distro... and so long as it simply sits on my computer, and I use it for my own use, then OK, in so far as the GPL is concerned. The GPL is ONLY concerned with distribution, not what end users do. Now the philosophy of the GNU Project is a bit different in that one can try to live totally free from binary blobs if one wants. The goal of Free Software is to never need binary blobs that you can not obtain the source to and modify and run you modified version, if you so choose. A fine distinction, but an important one. This is just a casual explanation, not intended to be inclusive, or even highly accurate --it's just conversation. For real accurate info please check out the links at: http://www.fsf.org Don. ************************** On Sunday 29 April 2007 12:29 pm, Tibacions Encepatils wrote: Hi all, My name's Bernat and I'm new to this list. I've just read today's posts and I found a comment about Ubuntu which I don't completely understand, I'll quote it: ?(...) as an Ubuntu user (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) (...)?. What's the matter with Ubuntu, why do some people consider it as a non-free O/S? As far as I know, the system comes exclusively with free software. Was I mistaken, could somebody correct me? Thanks! -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 16:21:03 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: <1301.192.168.1.1.1177793906.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <43729.192.168.1.1.1177878063.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I disagree with keeping an ad the same. It needs to be new. It needs to be fresh. If we just copy the Mac commercials, people are going to wonder how serious we really are. Of course, we don't have to have one "series" of commercials. It could be just individual ones. One I just thought of could go like this: We could have a little character walking through a room. He comes across the Windows logo first. He pushes the logo, and it moves a little bit, then he pushes it in, and it clicks. The logo lights up a little, kind of like a hotel vacancy sign. Then, he could walk to the Mac logo. He pushes it, and it moves a little, too. He clicks it, and it also lights up, just the same as the Windows logo. Then he comes to Tux. He pushes that logo, and he notices that it is pliable. He thinks for a second, and then shapes Tux into an airplane. He smiles and flies through a little world. Then he molds it into a jukebox and starts dancing to the music. Then he molds it into a computer. The camera whirls around him and the computer once, and zooms into the computer monitor that has Tux inside of it. Some sort of moto or quote or something should fade in underneath Tux, and then it says, "Linux." Of course, we should have a link to a webpage there, too. It was a thought. I'm not much of a publicist. But I would disagree with you a little that Mac is better than Vista. Mac may not have the freedom of GNU/Linux, but it is not the terrible dictator that Vista is. And now, since OS X was based on Unix, it's even closer to GNU/Linux than ever before. Sure, it has some proprietary software in it, but it can run the FLOSS and GPL software that we support so much. That's my opinion. Jacob >> I suggest that we keep Mac out of it. Our focus is against Vista. I know >> that the FSF stands behind GNU/Linux, but our aim is against Vista, >> specifically. Even Mac would be better than Vista. Is that agreeable? > > I strongly disagree that Mac is better than Vista, both are equally > proprietary that denies their users basic freedoms. Switching would > just mean serving a different master. Thus, including Mac would > highlight to the public that it is as bad as Vista. We do not want > people to abandon Vista just to see them switching to Mac, do we? > > Anyway, if we are going to produce a spoof, I suggest sticking to the > original theme of the "Mac" advertisement since they are already > famous. A cast of 2 men and 1 woman a la Novell spoofs works wonder > since the viewers could immediately see the difference. > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 16:33:48 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <4634A307.70707@syntaktisk.dk> Message-ID: <39767.192.168.1.1.1177878828.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> This is the kind of thing I am talking about. Editing xorg.conf alone will turn away a lot of people. We need to find something where no editing is required, it is just set up right. And remember that not everyone is interested it making their own software to fix different things. It needs to be all-inclusive. When someone wants to start programming their own software, then they should know that they have the choice. Remember that we are dealing with people who have dealt with Windows for the last 20 years. In Windows, you didn't edit some file to make your video card work to its fullest. We can't expect the people we are trying to sway to be okay with that option. That being said, I'm going to throw this one out there and wait to get yelled at by you all. I have run Fedora 5 and 6, and I think they are very user-friendly, though you can't edit your Apache conf file with the visual editor that they have. Otherwise, it has everything you need as a basic desktop. So, that's my thought. Oh, and we can't expect users to know about the most current version of KDE, either. These updates have to be able to be applied with only a click or two of the user. Jacob > I don't think it can be called as a bug (editing xorg.conf manually) it's > the users choice. But this is a use full feature coz then I can make some > software's to detect my VGA card as another one :P > > and makesure that you use the stable version of kde because there are lots > of testing and unstable versions, as a testing kde user i didn't had many > crashes up to this date. bugs are things that the developers don't know a > reason why this is happening > > If I'm wrong correct me > > cheers > > On 4/29/07, Morten Juhl Johansen wrote: >> >> Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi wrote: >> > It's mainly not about bugs in windows software, it's about >> restrictions >> > to the users, DRM, trusted computing etc. windows software has always >> > been buggy right ? >> >> Buggy is not exactly a subjective parameter, either. I used KDE earlier >> on, and it crashed frequently. Also, the fact that as an Ubuntu user >> (which is hardly an example of freedom, so let us say gNewSense user) >> you have to edit xorg.conf manually, if you need a previously >> unconfigured resolution. The fact that a lot of resolutions are >> available but not through the graphical interface can be perceived as a >> bug. >> >> Yours, >> mjjohansen >> >> __ >> http://www.syntaktisk.dk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate >> > > > > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 16:37:50 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:37:50 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <43729.192.168.1.1.1177878063.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <43729.192.168.1.1.1177878063.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704291337.50738.Don@donhensley.com> Well Jacob, when you said "I'm not much of a publicist." I had to laugh a bit. Maybe not, but you would make a great screenwriter. I could see your ad in my head as I read the description. There was one thing though. Tux is the Linux mascot, OK, but where do we get the GNU in there? ************************************ On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:21 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: I disagree with keeping an ad the same. It needs to be new. It needs to be fresh. If we just copy the Mac commercials, people are going to wonder how serious we really are. Of course, we don't have to have one "series" of commercials. It could be just individual ones. One I just thought of could go like this: We could have a little character walking through a room. He comes across the Windows logo first. He pushes the logo, and it moves a little bit, then he pushes it in, and it clicks. The logo lights up a little, kind of like a hotel vacancy sign. Then, he could walk to the Mac logo. He pushes it, and it moves a little, too. He clicks it, and it also lights up, just the same as the Windows logo. Then he comes to Tux. He pushes that logo, and he notices that it is pliable. He thinks for a second, and then shapes Tux into an airplane. He smiles and flies through a little world. Then he molds it into a jukebox and starts dancing to the music. Then he molds it into a computer. The camera whirls around him and the computer once, and zooms into the computer monitor that has Tux inside of it. Some sort of moto or quote or something should fade in underneath Tux, and then it says, "Linux." Of course, we should have a link to a webpage there, too. It was a thought. I'm not much of a publicist. But I would disagree with you a little that Mac is better than Vista. Mac may not have the freedom of GNU/Linux, but it is not the terrible dictator that Vista is. And now, since OS X was based on Unix, it's even closer to GNU/Linux than ever before. Sure, it has some proprietary software in it, but it can run the FLOSS and GPL software that we support so much. That's my opinion. Jacob -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 16:55:35 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704291337.50738.Don@donhensley.com> References: <43729.192.168.1.1.1177878063.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291337.50738.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <56407.192.168.1.1.1177880135.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> This is where I ran into the problem of writing it out. I know we're including the GNU. I just don't know where. If you have two different icons, people may get confused. That's what I worry about. Maybe if our little "moto" at the bottom read, "Powered by GNU software," and had the GNU on there next to that saying, that would be okay? I don't know. I just think that whatever idea that we had, it needs to be fresh. Nothing copied. Jacob > > Well Jacob, when you said "I'm not much of a publicist." I had to laugh a > bit. > > Maybe not, but you would make a great screenwriter. I could see your ad in > my > head as I read the description. > > There was one thing though. Tux is the Linux mascot, OK, but where do we > get > the GNU in there? > ************************************ > On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:21 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > I disagree with keeping an ad the same. It needs to be new. It needs to be > fresh. If we just copy the Mac commercials, people are going to wonder how > serious we really are. Of course, we don't have to have one "series" of > commercials. It could be just individual ones. > > One I just thought of could go like this: > > We could have a little character walking through a room. He comes across > the Windows logo first. He pushes the logo, and it moves a little bit, > then he pushes it in, and it clicks. The logo lights up a little, kind of > like a hotel vacancy sign. > > Then, he could walk to the Mac logo. He pushes it, and it moves a little, > too. He clicks it, and it also lights up, just the same as the Windows > logo. > > Then he comes to Tux. He pushes that logo, and he notices that it is > pliable. He thinks for a second, and then shapes Tux into an airplane. He > smiles and flies through a little world. Then he molds it into a jukebox > and starts dancing to the music. Then he molds it into a computer. The > camera whirls around him and the computer once, and zooms into the > computer monitor that has Tux inside of it. Some sort of moto or quote or > something should fade in underneath Tux, and then it says, "Linux." Of > course, we should have a link to a webpage there, too. > > It was a thought. I'm not much of a publicist. > > But I would disagree with you a little that Mac is better than Vista. Mac > may not have the freedom of GNU/Linux, but it is not the terrible dictator > that Vista is. And now, since OS X was based on Unix, it's even closer to > GNU/Linux than ever before. Sure, it has some proprietary software in it, > but it can run the FLOSS and GPL software that we support so much. That's > my opinion. > > Jacob > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 17:04:05 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:04:05 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <56407.192.168.1.1.1177880135.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <200704291337.50738.Don@donhensley.com> <56407.192.168.1.1.1177880135.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704291404.05683.Don@donhensley.com> How about making the little charter be the GNU? It's fair enough to have a GNU shaping Tux into whatever and flying around in it... I'd think so anyway. Linus might not... or might be OK with it, hard to say. By the way all those logos are owned by the respective owner, so some thought would need to be put into obtaining permission or working it in such a way as to not run afoul of the ever present attorneys. Legal can be a B... Problem. Don. ********************** On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:55 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: This is where I ran into the problem of writing it out. I know we're including the GNU. I just don't know where. If you have two different icons, people may get confused. That's what I worry about. Maybe if our little "moto" at the bottom read, "Powered by GNU software," and had the GNU on there next to that saying, that would be okay? I don't know. I just think that whatever idea that we had, it needs to be fresh. Nothing copied. Jacob > Well Jacob, when you said "I'm not much of a publicist." I had to laugh a > bit. > > Maybe not, but you would make a great screenwriter. I could see your ad in > my > head as I read the description. > > There was one thing though. Tux is the Linux mascot, OK, but where do we > get > the GNU in there? > ************************************ > On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:21 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > I disagree with keeping an ad the same. It needs to be new. It needs to be > fresh. If we just copy the Mac commercials, people are going to wonder how > serious we really are. Of course, we don't have to have one "series" of > commercials. It could be just individual ones. > > One I just thought of could go like this: > > We could have a little character walking through a room. He comes across > the Windows logo first. He pushes the logo, and it moves a little bit, > then he pushes it in, and it clicks. The logo lights up a little, kind of > like a hotel vacancy sign. > > Then, he could walk to the Mac logo. He pushes it, and it moves a little, > too. He clicks it, and it also lights up, just the same as the Windows > logo. > > Then he comes to Tux. He pushes that logo, and he notices that it is > pliable. He thinks for a second, and then shapes Tux into an airplane. He > smiles and flies through a little world. Then he molds it into a jukebox > and starts dancing to the music. Then he molds it into a computer. The > camera whirls around him and the computer once, and zooms into the > computer monitor that has Tux inside of it. Some sort of moto or quote or > something should fade in underneath Tux, and then it says, "Linux." Of > course, we should have a link to a webpage there, too. > > It was a thought. I'm not much of a publicist. > > But I would disagree with you a little that Mac is better than Vista. Mac > may not have the freedom of GNU/Linux, but it is not the terrible dictator > that Vista is. And now, since OS X was based on Unix, it's even closer to > GNU/Linux than ever before. Sure, it has some proprietary software in it, > but it can run the FLOSS and GPL software that we support so much. That's > my opinion. > > Jacob > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 17:09:42 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:09:42 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: <39767.192.168.1.1.1177878828.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <39767.192.168.1.1.1177878828.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704291409.42608.Don@donhensley.com> Actually I doubt editing xorg.conf would turn many people away, given that if you aren't into geek land fairly deep you wouldn't know about xorg.conf --or you editing experiment would be very short --unless you had enough console know how to at least get to MC or the equivalent, and then how to get back to xorg.conf to fix what you did wrong... But I take your point as you meant it, the geekness of using a computer should be minimal. On the other hand, if we want to drive a car it requires SOME learning... ditto computers. It is actually an impossibility to make a totally intuitive OS (at today's level of man machine interfaces). So yes simple is best for beginners, the availability of "as complex as you want", for not so beginners, is also very important. As to the current version problem, well it's true of everything (software, hardware, fast cars, medical procedures, etc.), stay away from bleeding edge stuff, most users can't handle cutting edge stuff. But marketing is the urge to push the latest and greatest... Why would you get yelled at for using Fedora, or any other distro? With the exception of Vista possibly. And even at that I'd love to have someone with real hands on, at work and at home, experience with Vista tell us about the experience. That's someone that is also aware of and uses GNU/Linux everyday. It would help in writing a FAQ. Don. *********************************** On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:33 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: This is the kind of thing I am talking about. Editing xorg.conf alone will turn away a lot of people. We need to find something where no editing is required, it is just set up right. And remember that not everyone is interested it making their own software to fix different things. It needs to be all-inclusive. When someone wants to start programming their own software, then they should know that they have the choice. Remember that we are dealing with people who have dealt with Windows for the last 20 years. In Windows, you didn't edit some file to make your video card work to its fullest. We can't expect the people we are trying to sway to be okay with that option. That being said, I'm going to throw this one out there and wait to get yelled at by you all. I have run Fedora 5 and 6, and I think they are very user-friendly, though you can't edit your Apache conf file with the visual editor that they have. Otherwise, it has everything you need as a basic desktop. So, that's my thought. Oh, and we can't expect users to know about the most current version of KDE, either. These updates have to be able to be applied with only a click or two of the user. Jacob -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 17:15:08 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704291404.05683.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704291337.50738.Don@donhensley.com> <56407.192.168.1.1.1177880135.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291404.05683.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <38471.192.168.1.1.1177881308.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> That's a very interesting spin on it. Sure, have him be the GNU. We could ask Linus what he thinks on the matter. I doubt he'll be too bothered. Legalities were what I was worried about. But it has to be evident what each symbol represents. Or, maybe we cut the other symbols, Windows and Mac, and just focus on the little GNU shaping Tux and taking him to whole new worlds with references to productivity, games, multimedia, and development. Would that be better? Less legalities, and then we don't give any unintentional focus on Windows or Mac. And who here can animate? I can't. Jacob > > How about making the little charter be the GNU? It's fair enough to have a > GNU > shaping Tux into whatever and flying around in it... I'd think so anyway. > Linus might not... or might be OK with it, hard to say. > > By the way all those logos are owned by the respective owner, so some > thought > would need to be put into obtaining permission or working it in such a way > as > to not run afoul of the ever present attorneys. Legal can be a B... > Problem. > > Don. > ********************** > On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:55 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > This is where I ran into the problem of writing it out. I know we're > including the GNU. I just don't know where. If you have two different > icons, people may get confused. That's what I worry about. > > Maybe if our little "moto" at the bottom read, "Powered by GNU software," > and had the GNU on there next to that saying, that would be okay? I don't > know. I just think that whatever idea that we had, it needs to be fresh. > Nothing copied. > > Jacob > >> Well Jacob, when you said "I'm not much of a publicist." I had to laugh >> a >> bit. >> >> Maybe not, but you would make a great screenwriter. I could see your ad >> in >> my >> head as I read the description. >> >> There was one thing though. Tux is the Linux mascot, OK, but where do we >> get >> the GNU in there? >> ************************************ >> On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:21 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: >> I disagree with keeping an ad the same. It needs to be new. It needs to >> be >> fresh. If we just copy the Mac commercials, people are going to wonder >> how >> serious we really are. Of course, we don't have to have one "series" of >> commercials. It could be just individual ones. >> >> One I just thought of could go like this: >> >> We could have a little character walking through a room. He comes across >> the Windows logo first. He pushes the logo, and it moves a little bit, >> then he pushes it in, and it clicks. The logo lights up a little, kind >> of >> like a hotel vacancy sign. >> >> Then, he could walk to the Mac logo. He pushes it, and it moves a >> little, >> too. He clicks it, and it also lights up, just the same as the Windows >> logo. >> >> Then he comes to Tux. He pushes that logo, and he notices that it is >> pliable. He thinks for a second, and then shapes Tux into an airplane. >> He >> smiles and flies through a little world. Then he molds it into a jukebox >> and starts dancing to the music. Then he molds it into a computer. The >> camera whirls around him and the computer once, and zooms into the >> computer monitor that has Tux inside of it. Some sort of moto or quote >> or >> something should fade in underneath Tux, and then it says, "Linux." Of >> course, we should have a link to a webpage there, too. >> >> It was a thought. I'm not much of a publicist. >> >> But I would disagree with you a little that Mac is better than Vista. >> Mac >> may not have the freedom of GNU/Linux, but it is not the terrible >> dictator >> that Vista is. And now, since OS X was based on Unix, it's even closer >> to >> GNU/Linux than ever before. Sure, it has some proprietary software in >> it, >> but it can run the FLOSS and GPL software that we support so much. >> That's >> my opinion. >> >> Jacob >> >> -- >> GNU/Linux is the future. >> Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 >> Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 17:22:06 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:22:06 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <38471.192.168.1.1.1177881308.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <200704291404.05683.Don@donhensley.com> <38471.192.168.1.1.1177881308.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704291422.07010.Don@donhensley.com> Ah yes, that's the ever present rub... I couldn't do anything artistic, even if my life depended on it. Possibly some one will come forward. Don. ******************* On Sunday 29 April 2007 02:15 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: And who here can animate? I can't. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 17:24:31 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: <200704291409.42608.Don@donhensley.com> References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <39767.192.168.1.1.1177878828.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291409.42608.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <39968.192.168.1.1.1177881871.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> The learning curve for a computer, sad to say, has been built by Windows. We have to maintain the ease of Windows without the restrictiveness. Therefore, new users with only Windows knowledge under their belt would hate to have to edit a text file. It's more trouble than it's worth for most people. Even though no OS can be completely intuitive, we must do the best we can to find that distro that covers it enough. I was thinking about it. We should get the opinions of people who have never used Vista before and compare them to people who have never used GNU/Linux before. Maybe the same people test each system? If we could get just 3 or so to tell us their opinions after having used them, that would be a good campaign kicker. Unless they liked Vista better, of course. But it would be a neat experiment, anyway. Jacob > > Actually I doubt editing xorg.conf would turn many people away, given that > if > you aren't into geek land fairly deep you wouldn't know about xorg.conf > --or > you editing experiment would be very short --unless you had enough console > know how to at least get to MC or the equivalent, and then how to get back > to > xorg.conf to fix what you did wrong... > > But I take your point as you meant it, the geekness of using a computer > should > be minimal. > > On the other hand, if we want to drive a car it requires SOME learning... > ditto computers. > > It is actually an impossibility to make a totally intuitive OS (at today's > level of man machine interfaces). > > So yes simple is best for beginners, the availability of "as complex as > you > want", for not so beginners, is also very important. > > As to the current version problem, well it's true of everything (software, > hardware, fast cars, medical procedures, etc.), stay away from bleeding > edge > stuff, most users can't handle cutting edge stuff. But marketing is the > urge > to push the latest and greatest... > > Why would you get yelled at for using Fedora, or any other distro? With > the > exception of Vista possibly. > > And even at that I'd love to have someone with real hands on, at work and > at > home, experience with Vista tell us about the experience. > > That's someone that is also aware of and uses GNU/Linux everyday. It would > help in writing a FAQ. > > Don. > *********************************** > On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:33 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: > This is the kind of thing I am talking about. Editing xorg.conf alone will > turn away a lot of people. We need to find something where no editing is > required, it is just set up right. And remember that not everyone is > interested it making their own software to fix different things. It needs > to be all-inclusive. When someone wants to start programming their own > software, then they should know that they have the choice. > > Remember that we are dealing with people who have dealt with Windows for > the last 20 years. In Windows, you didn't edit some file to make your > video card work to its fullest. We can't expect the people we are trying > to sway to be okay with that option. > > That being said, I'm going to throw this one out there and wait to get > yelled at by you all. I have run Fedora 5 and 6, and I think they are very > user-friendly, though you can't edit your Apache conf file with the visual > editor that they have. Otherwise, it has everything you need as a basic > desktop. So, that's my thought. > > Oh, and we can't expect users to know about the most current version of > KDE, either. These updates have to be able to be applied with only a click > or two of the user. > > Jacob > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 17:29:41 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:29:41 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <4634F7AD.8040703@syntaktisk.dk> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> Well, that is what I do; build 100% GNU/Linux systems: http://donhensley.com Unfortunately I am not even a small company, I'm a "Just me" company. I'm just a retired guy that does this strictly by referral and then only with people I can directly interface with. I just do not have the time (or health) to try to do support any other way. But find a LUG in your area, and ask if some one will build you a system. You will find lots of people that can do it and many that would be pleased to make a buck or two. But best of all, you would meet some really nice helpful people that way, and discover a great support system. Join a LUG today. And Dell is making noise about a "Linux" pre load, but it will be very unlikely to be a 100% Free Software system. Mandriva sells pre loaded computers, unfortunately also not 100% Free software. Don. ***************************************************** On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:05 pm, Wayne Moore wrote: I am aware of that list, thanks. ?While that does help when shopping for components to build your own system, I think it would be very useful to know if there are any "off-the-shelf" systems that the big (or small) hardware vendors sell, that would work with 100% free software - this would help those that cannot build their own systems. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 18:41:41 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:41:41 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: <39968.192.168.1.1.1177881871.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <200704291409.42608.Don@donhensley.com> <39968.192.168.1.1.1177881871.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704291541.41292.Don@donhensley.com> On Sunday 29 April 2007 02:24 pm, Jacob Maynard wrote: >The learning curve for a computer, sad to say, has been built by Windows. How very true. That was an error that my generation made. After all, I started with IBM Punch Card Collators. There was no doubt a time when the Windows only problem could have been stopped, but back then about any system was propitiatory, and a UNIX license cost the world. I always think Bill G. just slipped through a crack based on price differential, and the fact that it was all hobby back then, for anything 'home sized'. RMS had the correct vision, and the will. He just lacked the funding and the exposure. More of a timing problem, and a resource problem, else Windows would have been more of a footnote then any thing else. IMO. But whatever. As you point out we are now pretty much stuck with the sort of interface Windows uses as being where the learning curve is. And in so far as GUI's go, good deal, I'm all for them... just keep your mitts off my command line! And my conf files! And Emacs rules! (lets see if that draws any Vi people out of the walls). >We have to maintain the ease of Windows without the restrictiveness. Currently, this would require the assistance of hardware vendors. OR the inclusion of binary blobs of unknown source code - no Freedom to Modify. Or build a system with hardware that has GPL'd open drivers, then pure GUN/Linux is easy. Much easier to install and use then any version of Windows. >Therefore, new users with only Windows knowledge under their belt would >hate to have to edit a text file. It's more trouble than it's worth for >most people. Even though no OS can be completely intuitive, we must do the >best we can to find that distro that covers it enough. Again a real hardware issue. Possibly if there were enough Tridge's (Samba) in the world all hardware could be reverse engineered. And even then I'm just talking level of genius, not just hardware expertise - it would take both. A very rare individual it would be --and Tridge is one of a kind, so I wouldn't expect to find many people of that caliber to be out loose and wandering around anywhere. >I was thinking about it. We should get the opinions of people who have >never used Vista before and compare them to people who have never used >GNU/Linux before. Maybe the same people test each system? If we could get >just 3 or so to tell us their opinions after having used them, that would >be a good campaign kicker. Unless they liked Vista better, of course. But >it would be a neat experiment, anyway. >Jacob Except for it not being Vista, this is an experiment (not planned as an experiment - possibly I should say an experience I have had), several times, ranging from Win98 to XP, in every case the person quite literally fell in love with GNU/Linux. However, this is in an older population, and with a GNU/Linux system already completely set up, with their particular needs already addressed in the set up. So it probably doesn't really count. You see most the people I build systems for have tried Windows, usually just long enough to decide if there is nothing better, then the H.. with it all. I simply pop a Knoppix disk in THEIR computer, and then walk them through it for a few minutes. Because that's usually the deal, they bought a computer, got it loaded with ad ware, Trojans, viruses, etc --within days of first buying it. So it's hosed, and some one tells them they just need to wipe the drive and reinstall Windows... yada, yada... soon they are looking for me, or someone like me, to fix it. What they really mean is make it work, AND make it just keep on working... the whole thing for them comes down to "That Windows x&%$>!!==bad stuff happened to me", compared to "That GNU/Linux stuff Don put on my computer hasn't given me any trouble." Well they are end users, don't expect much by way of geekness understanding of the real issues of what happened to them --or why it stopped happening to them. I think the better test would be one of installing from scratch, no outside help. Just hand them a Vista install disk and any live GNU/Linux CD. Then see who can check their web based email first. Yes, yes, I know --but still, it would be fun to watch. Don. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 20:42:27 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:42:27 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704291422.07010.Don@donhensley.com> References: <38471.192.168.1.1.1177881308.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291422.07010.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <200704291742.27443.Don@donhensley.com> Hey Jacob (or anyone else that's interested in an ad campaign), I just noticed that I've quite by accident come up with an easy to film, youtube-ish ad campaign: Two people, identical computers, bare hardware, a host (like in Jeopardy). The contestants pick their OS of choice (one Vista one GNU/Linux, of course). Then as the music plays they compete to be first to reach a web based email account containing some huge prize in an email. Of course the GNU/Linux person is using a live CD... Hey it's not about fair, it's about accurate. And because it's a live GNU/Linux CD the whole thing lasts just slightly longer then boot time for the live CD. In that time the "host" could cover a lot of pro GNU, BadVista, ground. Just talking like the Jeopardy host talks to add suspense. There you go, grab a video camera, a couple of boxes, three people, and start the next viral youtube ad campaign... I see subtitles, cool music loosely based on the theme from Jeopardy. The flummoxed look on the Vista persons face, the cool look of satisfaction on the GNU/Linux users face... True it does not really touch on the bad aspects of Vista, but it's not a bad GNU/Linux ad. Still it could prominently display the addy for the BadVista web site... might get some more people looking at least. Don. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From manchicken at members.fsf.org Sun Apr 29 21:26:18 2007 From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:26:18 -0500 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704291742.27443.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704291422.07010.Don@donhensley.com> <200704291742.27443.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <200704292026.18651.manchicken@members.fsf.org> On Sunday 29 April 2007 19:42:27 Don Hensley wrote: > Hey Jacob (or anyone else that's interested in an ad campaign), > > I just noticed that I've quite by accident come up with an easy to film, > youtube-ish ad campaign: > > Two people, identical computers, bare hardware, a host (like in Jeopardy). > > The contestants pick their OS of choice (one Vista one GNU/Linux, of > course). > > Then as the music plays they compete to be first to reach a web based email > account containing some huge prize in an email. > > Of course the GNU/Linux person is using a live CD... > > Hey it's not about fair, it's about accurate. And because it's a live > GNU/Linux CD the whole thing lasts just slightly longer then boot time for > the live CD. In that time the "host" could cover a lot of pro GNU, > BadVista, ground. Just talking like the Jeopardy host talks to add > suspense. > > There you go, grab a video camera, a couple of boxes, three people, and > start the next viral youtube ad campaign... > > I see subtitles, cool music loosely based on the theme from Jeopardy. The > flummoxed look on the Vista persons face, the cool look of satisfaction on > the GNU/Linux users face... > > True it does not really touch on the bad aspects of Vista, but it's not a > bad GNU/Linux ad. Still it could prominently display the addy for the > BadVista web site... might get some more people looking at least. > > Don. How is a live CD more "accurate"? -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 21:33:41 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:33:41 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704292026.18651.manchicken@members.fsf.org> References: <200704291742.27443.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292026.18651.manchicken@members.fsf.org> Message-ID: <200704291833.41189.Don@donhensley.com> Not MORE accurate, just that it's accurate to refer to a GNU/Linux live CD as a GNU/Linux Distro. I was admitting that fair wasn't part of the plan. It rarely is in what amounts to sound bites. Don. **************************** On Sunday 29 April 2007 06:26 pm, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: How is a live CD more "accurate"? -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From manchicken at members.fsf.org Sun Apr 29 21:35:40 2007 From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:35:40 -0500 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> On Sunday 29 April 2007 16:29:41 Don Hensley wrote: > Well, that is what I do; build 100% GNU/Linux systems: > http://donhensley.com > > Unfortunately I am not even a small company, I'm a "Just me" company. I'm > just a retired guy that does this strictly by referral and then only with > people I can directly interface with. I just do not have the time (or > health) to try to do support any other way. > > But find a LUG in your area, and ask if some one will build you a system. > You will find lots of people that can do it and many that would be pleased > to make a buck or two. > > But best of all, you would meet some really nice helpful people that way, > and discover a great support system. Join a LUG today. > > And Dell is making noise about a "Linux" pre load, but it will be very > unlikely to be a 100% Free Software system. > > Mandriva sells pre loaded computers, unfortunately also not 100% Free > software. > > Don. > ***************************************************** > On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:05 pm, Wayne Moore wrote: > I am aware of that list, thanks. ?While that does help when shopping for > components to build your own system, I think it would be very useful to > know if there are any "off-the-shelf" systems that the big (or small) > hardware vendors sell, that would work with 100% free software - this would > help those that cannot build their own systems. I love OEM GNU/Linux. It's nice, and it's well supported. There needs to be more laptop OEM GNU/Linux going around. I would love a gNewSense (maybe even gNewSense with KDE) lappy OEM that was affordable with good hardware. I don't know if you've priced it lately folks, but at Wal-Mart or Best Buy, you can get Vista-loaded machines for roughly the price of the OS (after rebates). And these are pretty beefy machines too. 2GHz core duo, 1.5GB RAM, 80GB+ hard drives, all for arount USD$600, and often times they come with rebates. I seriously saw one earlier while I was buying my lawn mower. System76 is the only OEM GNU/Linux provider that I've seen that has customizable laptops, and they're awful pricey (though I still drool and would love to have one, gran, if you're on this mailing list... anyway...). If there are any more OEM lappy retailers that allow more customization and offer excellent support, I would love to know about it. We need more OEM. OEM is the future. OEM is the only reason why Vista is selling, and OEM is the way that we can truely free the users. All that said, Don Hensley, do you make customizable lappies at reasonable prices? Or does anybody else do so? I'd love to share that information with everybody I possibly could. Maybe we could all make shameless plug pages on our respective sites with links to OEM retailers who sell Free Software loaded machines. -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi From manchicken at members.fsf.org Sun Apr 29 21:37:05 2007 From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:37:05 -0500 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners Message-ID: <200704292037.06021.manchicken@members.fsf.org> On Friday 27 April 2007 22:12:36 Don Hensley wrote: > > Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually have a > Vista box up and running? > > One of the real problems I have, is that as all my systems are GNU/Linux (I > left Windows behind quite some time ago), I really am hard pressed to > actually get into technical problems with Vista. > > I can read what information is available, and I can see the impossible problem > presented in the "If you can't open it, you don't own it" aspect of any > proprietary software. > > And the underling problems with DRM are apparent as a simple exercise in > logic. > > The problem is "How do I explain to a Vista user, or prospective Vista user, > exactly what Freedom his software lacks (and what freedoms he is giving up by > using Vista), when I don't even use it at all?" > > That is a point by point issue that perhaps we could work on getting into a > form that might reach "Joe Sixpack", or "Anonymous". > > Every time I get serious about explaining this, I see eyeballs glaze over. > Well what can I say, I am an engineer by training, a hacker by inclination > (not the hacker the news media has corrupted the honorable title into). > > So how do I reach the average end user? > > I don't believe it's a requirement to reach "Granny", she will come to it on > her own, or go with whatever the family geek sets up for her. (I get all my > 'old people' because either I am recommended, or they have had such a bad > experience with Windows that they are out searching for something better, and > run across me). > > So long as it's set up for them, they are the easiest bunch I know of to get > to be happy GNU/Linux users. Notice that I am in a de facto manner, simply > becoming a non evil Redmond for them. I have made it all work, from the first > time they use it, I hold their hand as long as is needed, and am available to > help (i.e.; fix it.) when they do have a problem. > > This is not "Joe Sixpack" gets a distro and tries to install it... Games????? > where are games??? No Second Life! Why!! > > But then gaming is not often a big thing with my clients, maybe poker or > solitaire. Frozen Bubble is always a big hit. > > So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ that is > written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit from > using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using > Vista. > > Why giving up some things that Microsoft is using to entice you (and > developers) with, is the right thing to do. And why it's going to ultimately > benefit them to forgo some of those poisonous things. > > And the FAQ needs to be in easy to understand terms and verbiage. > > As Jacob and I not long ago discovered, what seems obvious to one person (or > age group) may not be obvious at all to another. This is one of the things > that needs to be considered when creating any sort of "come on over, this is > great" sort of page, be it a FAQ or otherwise. > > I await some feedback from all of you. > > As most of you know (I hope) feedback that does not agree with my take is fine > with me. > > I'll leave you all with this observation about life (at least my life, and > I'll bet yours too): > > "I have never, ever, not once, learned anything from someone that agreed with > me." If he agreed what was there to learn from him? > > Don. My employer requires me to test web-based software on the latest and greatest Windows rubbish (yes, it is rubbish). So, he went to Dell and bought a copy of Vista and it came with a computer free of charge (the computer was roughly $200 more than the cost of the version of Vista installed, and he got a $250 rebate). As for the things that Joe Schmoe would notice that are broken about it, well, let's enumerate shall we? 1) This smartphone (PalmOS) came with a driver and install disc for win32. Well, it doesn't work. I get a GPF whenever I try to install software onto the phone using this software. This is just a Treo 700p from Verizon Wireless. Very common. Yet, I plugged it into my Kubuntu box and as soon as I loaded the visor kernel module, this thing worked pretty well with kpilot. 2) *MANY* programs are 100% incompatible with Vista. This allSnap program I use in order to snap windows to the edge (a feature that most X window managers have had for quite some time) won't execute. Windows "detects problems" and is "unable to resolve" them. 3) I picked up a Linksys wireless network extender (let's you plug in ethernet and access your wireless network) and tried to configure it, thinking the windows install would work the quickest (sorry, I'm lazy sometimes). Well, when I went to run the configuration tool on the CDROM, I got a "windows has detected a problem" and it wouldn't run. I called their (Linksys') support number and found out that Vista is not supported. So I asked what IP and port and default authentication information was the default for the device, plugged it into my GNU/Linux/KDE box and it only took me 2 minutes to do what I'd just wasted more than ten times that trying to do with Vista. 4) This thing hits the 3D for everything. My machine pumps out a considerable amount of heat. Not overheating, but I can only imagine how much extra juice it's burning needlessly. 5) The graphics drivers for Vista are crap. Both ATI and NVidia are playing hell trying to get their drivers to work. These nvidia drivers on this machine now leave yellow lines on the screen during boot, and when the screensaver runs I get all sorts of weird artifacts on the screen. ATI users of Vista will have scarier stories on that as ATI doesn't know how to write drivers for general computers to save their lives. 6) USB doesn't wake up after resume. If you have your wireless adapter on USB, you have to constantly disconnect and reconnect it when resuming from sleep. 7) Everything asks you if you want to send data to Microsoft. They ask if you want to "help improve Microsoft products" for damn-near everything. These options are checked by default, and have "(Recommended)" next to the "Yes" radio button. Well, that's all I feel like typing right now. I may put up a second edition of this later. Dunno. I feel better now. -- ~ manchicken <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer. The number of the beast - vi vi vi ------------------------------------------------------- -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi From 2600denver at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 21:40:18 2007 From: 2600denver at gmail.com (Ringo Kamens) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:40:18 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> Message-ID: <3922422b0704291840s1c1dc044q939da7c67d03bf7f@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps another thing people could do is publish plans for OEM GNU/Linux laptops to LUGs can make them and give them out to the community. I know there is an interesting project at openoem.com where they are building a laptop/desktop with 100% free as in freedom hardware and software. It's worth checking out. Comrade Ringo Kamens On 4/29/07, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > On Sunday 29 April 2007 16:29:41 Don Hensley wrote: > > Well, that is what I do; build 100% GNU/Linux systems: > > http://donhensley.com > > > > Unfortunately I am not even a small company, I'm a "Just me" company. I'm > > just a retired guy that does this strictly by referral and then only with > > people I can directly interface with. I just do not have the time (or > > health) to try to do support any other way. > > > > But find a LUG in your area, and ask if some one will build you a system. > > You will find lots of people that can do it and many that would be pleased > > to make a buck or two. > > > > But best of all, you would meet some really nice helpful people that way, > > and discover a great support system. Join a LUG today. > > > > And Dell is making noise about a "Linux" pre load, but it will be very > > unlikely to be a 100% Free Software system. > > > > Mandriva sells pre loaded computers, unfortunately also not 100% Free > > software. > > > > Don. > > ***************************************************** > > On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:05 pm, Wayne Moore wrote: > > I am aware of that list, thanks. While that does help when shopping for > > components to build your own system, I think it would be very useful to > > know if there are any "off-the-shelf" systems that the big (or small) > > hardware vendors sell, that would work with 100% free software - this would > > help those that cannot build their own systems. > > I love OEM GNU/Linux. It's nice, and it's well supported. There needs to be > more laptop OEM GNU/Linux going around. I would love a gNewSense (maybe even > gNewSense with KDE) lappy OEM that was affordable with good hardware. I > don't know if you've priced it lately folks, but at Wal-Mart or Best Buy, you > can get Vista-loaded machines for roughly the price of the OS (after > rebates). And these are pretty beefy machines too. 2GHz core duo, 1.5GB > RAM, 80GB+ hard drives, all for arount USD$600, and often times they come > with rebates. I seriously saw one earlier while I was buying my lawn mower. > > System76 is the only OEM GNU/Linux provider that I've seen that has > customizable laptops, and they're awful pricey (though I still drool and > would love to have one, gran, if you're on this mailing list... anyway...). > If there are any more OEM lappy retailers that allow more customization and > offer excellent support, I would love to know about it. We need more OEM. > OEM is the future. OEM is the only reason why Vista is selling, and OEM is > the way that we can truely free the users. > > All that said, Don Hensley, do you make customizable lappies at reasonable > prices? Or does anybody else do so? I'd love to share that information with > everybody I possibly could. Maybe we could all make shameless plug pages on > our respective sites with links to OEM retailers who sell Free Software > loaded machines. > > -- > ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< > (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer > The number of the beast - vi vi vi > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 21:52:35 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 01:52:35 +0000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: > The key is actually in distribution, not in the binary blobs, per se. > Their lack of commitment to freedom is bothering me big time, as expressed by Fedora Max Spevack: "Ubuntu is one example, as there is very strong language about their commitment to Free and open source software, right up until the line stating that they include binary-only drivers on their CDs and in their repositories." http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/licensing Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From Don at donhensley.com Sun Apr 29 21:53:03 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:53:03 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> Message-ID: <200704291853.03839.Don@donhensley.com> No unfortunately I don't. I sometimes install GNU/Linux on other peoples laptops. I really am just a hobby business, something I do for the love of it, and to help people out. I rarely even charge more then my cost (actually I generally lose money). But then I'm retired (a long time retired actually). But thanks for asking. As Ringo said openoem.com is worth a look. And, of course you already know about System76. Don. *************************** On Sunday 29 April 2007 06:35 pm, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: All that said, Don Hensley, do you make customizable lappies at reasonable prices? ?Or does anybody else do so? ?I'd love to share that information with everybody I possibly could. ?Maybe we could all make shameless plug pages on our respective sites with links to OEM retailers who sell Free Software loaded machines. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 22:00:57 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:00:57 +0000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: <200704291541.41292.Don@donhensley.com> References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <200704291409.42608.Don@donhensley.com> <39968.192.168.1.1.1177881871.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291541.41292.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: > RMS had the correct vision, and the will. He just lacked the funding and the > exposure. More of a timing problem, and a resource problem, else Windows > would have been more of a footnote then any thing else. IMO. His vision is one of freedom. Note that he care neither about convenient nor low learning curve. If he needs to execute 10 commands of free software just to view a Youtube video, he would do it rather than use non-free software like Adobe Flash. Similarly, if Internet Banking requires usage of the non-free Sun's Java, we should refuse to use it and instead take a walk to the bank. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 22:05:58 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704291742.27443.Don@donhensley.com> References: <38471.192.168.1.1.1177881308.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291422.07010.Don@donhensley.com> <200704291742.27443.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <1193.192.168.1.1.1177898758.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Very nice. I like the touch on that one. Very simple, too. I've been trying to convince one of my bosses that Vista sucks, and I don't think I've even showed hime Knoppix, yet. Maybe tomorrow. Jacob > > Hey Jacob (or anyone else that's interested in an ad campaign), > > I just noticed that I've quite by accident come up with an easy to film, > youtube-ish ad campaign: > > Two people, identical computers, bare hardware, a host (like in Jeopardy). > > The contestants pick their OS of choice (one Vista one GNU/Linux, of > course). > > Then as the music plays they compete to be first to reach a web based > email > account containing some huge prize in an email. > > Of course the GNU/Linux person is using a live CD... > > Hey it's not about fair, it's about accurate. And because it's a live > GNU/Linux CD the whole thing lasts just slightly longer then boot time for > the live CD. In that time the "host" could cover a lot of pro GNU, > BadVista, > ground. Just talking like the Jeopardy host talks to add suspense. > > There you go, grab a video camera, a couple of boxes, three people, and > start > the next viral youtube ad campaign... > > I see subtitles, cool music loosely based on the theme from Jeopardy. The > flummoxed look on the Vista persons face, the cool look of satisfaction on > the GNU/Linux users face... > > True it does not really touch on the bad aspects of Vista, but it's not a > bad > GNU/Linux ad. Still it could prominently display the addy for the BadVista > web site... might get some more people looking at least. > > Don. > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 22:07:34 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:07:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704292026.18651.manchicken@members.fsf.org> References: <200704291422.07010.Don@donhensley.com> <200704291742.27443.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292026.18651.manchicken@members.fsf.org> Message-ID: <1201.192.168.1.1.1177898854.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Not more accurate, just accurate. A live CD doesn't have to be installed. Therefore, you can have a complete GNU/Linux system setup in as long as it takes to boot the computer. Vista has to be installed, then setup, then rebooted. Jacob > On Sunday 29 April 2007 19:42:27 Don Hensley wrote: >> Hey Jacob (or anyone else that's interested in an ad campaign), >> >> I just noticed that I've quite by accident come up with an easy to film, >> youtube-ish ad campaign: >> >> Two people, identical computers, bare hardware, a host (like in >> Jeopardy). >> >> The contestants pick their OS of choice (one Vista one GNU/Linux, of >> course). >> >> Then as the music plays they compete to be first to reach a web based >> email >> account containing some huge prize in an email. >> >> Of course the GNU/Linux person is using a live CD... >> >> Hey it's not about fair, it's about accurate. And because it's a live >> GNU/Linux CD the whole thing lasts just slightly longer then boot time >> for >> the live CD. In that time the "host" could cover a lot of pro GNU, >> BadVista, ground. Just talking like the Jeopardy host talks to add >> suspense. >> >> There you go, grab a video camera, a couple of boxes, three people, and >> start the next viral youtube ad campaign... >> >> I see subtitles, cool music loosely based on the theme from Jeopardy. >> The >> flummoxed look on the Vista persons face, the cool look of satisfaction >> on >> the GNU/Linux users face... >> >> True it does not really touch on the bad aspects of Vista, but it's not >> a >> bad GNU/Linux ad. Still it could prominently display the addy for the >> BadVista web site... might get some more people looking at least. >> >> Don. > > How is a live CD more "accurate"? > > -- > ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< > (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer > The number of the beast - vi vi vi > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us Sun Apr 29 22:09:48 2007 From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:09:48 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <200704292037.06021.manchicken@members.fsf.org> References: <200704292037.06021.manchicken@members.fsf.org> Message-ID: <26d2590704291909q477e3e5au6d8ddf5813c27876@mail.gmail.com> Sorry all I posted from a msn email site before about Vista and my Beta testing it since I have msn email installed on my laptop and my opensuse email is forwarded so I can read it while working at a remote site which requires a windows system for forensics. Now that I am home I will try to post what I was saying before: I beta tested Vista (all versions) from day one since I have to be familiar with all major operating systems. I also used Visual Studio (Visual Basic) against Vista to see if I could see some of the codes MS used. While I cannot relate my findings there because of the MS Eula and my chance of being sued by MS and their multitude of lawyers I can relate to the security issues, the MS lies about Vista (not exactly lies but not fully explaining programs and their uses in different versions), comparing Vista Aero Glass against SuSe XGL (compiz or beryl) that I found and are still in the retail versions of Vista currently being used. I can say this except for my test computer I would never install Vista on any of my companies or my home computers I use. Vista Home is nothing but a hyped up version of XP Home and actually I feel XP Home is better to use for Windows users. It has none of the functions of the higher versions of Vista (still has DRM which tells a user what they can copy, watch or whatever). The one area I am adamant about is the Windows Genuine Advantage which MS calls their anti-pirating tool. I say and feel this is nothing but a way MS can spy on their users and see what is on their systems, a complete invasion of privacy, and no one can explain to me from Microsoft why this has to re-validate your system every 6 months after you do the original validation. Does MS think their users would be stupid enough to uninstall and then place a pirated copy back on their computer? NOT!! It is a control feature which will not validate your copy of Vista if you are not using DRM controlled features or have software not validated by MS. Find me one Linux distro that would even try to have a control like this. This would never happen on Linux because we all believe you own your computer and it is your choice what you want to use and run on your system. I will further email info about Vista and my findings as my time avails. Being a owner of a computer forensics company and with the amount attacks against companies that insist on using window servers and desktops keeps us very busy. Linux Rocks & Rolls George greenarrow1 at opensuse.us InNetInvestigations-Forensic SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache GoBoLinux/Vogon On 4/29/07, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > > On Friday 27 April 2007 22:12:36 Don Hensley wrote: > > > > Something I'm a bit curious about: Does anyone on this list actually > have a > > Vista box up and running? > > > > One of the real problems I have, is that as all my systems are GNU/Linux > (I > > left Windows behind quite some time ago), I really am hard pressed to > > actually get into technical problems with Vista. > > > > I can read what information is available, and I can see the impossible > problem > > presented in the "If you can't open it, you don't own it" aspect of any > > proprietary software. > > > > And the underling problems with DRM are apparent as a simple exercise in > > logic. > > > > The problem is "How do I explain to a Vista user, or prospective Vista > user, > > exactly what Freedom his software lacks (and what freedoms he is giving > up > by > > using Vista), when I don't even use it at all?" > > > > That is a point by point issue that perhaps we could work on getting > into a > > form that might reach "Joe Sixpack", or "Anonymous". > > > > Every time I get serious about explaining this, I see eyeballs glaze > over. > > Well what can I say, I am an engineer by training, a hacker by > inclination > > (not the hacker the news media has corrupted the honorable title into). > > > > So how do I reach the average end user? > > > > I don't believe it's a requirement to reach "Granny", she will come to > it on > > her own, or go with whatever the family geek sets up for her. (I get all > my > > 'old people' because either I am recommended, or they have had such a > bad > > experience with Windows that they are out searching for something > better, > and > > run across me). > > > > So long as it's set up for them, they are the easiest bunch I know of to > get > > to be happy GNU/Linux users. Notice that I am in a de facto manner, > simply > > becoming a non evil Redmond for them. I have made it all work, from the > first > > time they use it, I hold their hand as long as is needed, and am > available > to > > help (i.e.; fix it.) when they do have a problem. > > > > This is not "Joe Sixpack" gets a distro and tries to install it... > Games????? > > where are games??? No Second Life! Why!! > > > > But then gaming is not often a big thing with my clients, maybe poker or > > solitaire. Frozen Bubble is always a big hit. > > > > So any suggestions would help. That's what I would like to see, a FAQ > that > is > > written to show point by point why one not only should, but will benefit > from > > using GNU/Linux and why one should not, and will not benefit from using > > Vista. > > > > Why giving up some things that Microsoft is using to entice you (and > > developers) with, is the right thing to do. And why it's going to > ultimately > > benefit them to forgo some of those poisonous things. > > > > And the FAQ needs to be in easy to understand terms and verbiage. > > > > As Jacob and I not long ago discovered, what seems obvious to one person > (or > > age group) may not be obvious at all to another. This is one of the > things > > that needs to be considered when creating any sort of "come on over, > this is > > great" sort of page, be it a FAQ or otherwise. > > > > I await some feedback from all of you. > > > > As most of you know (I hope) feedback that does not agree with my take > is > fine > > with me. > > > > I'll leave you all with this observation about life (at least my life, > and > > I'll bet yours too): > > > > "I have never, ever, not once, learned anything from someone that agreed > with > > me." If he agreed what was there to learn from him? > > > > Don. > > My employer requires me to test web-based software on the latest and > greatest > Windows rubbish (yes, it is rubbish). So, he went to Dell and bought a > copy > of Vista and it came with a computer free of charge (the computer was > roughly > $200 more than the cost of the version of Vista installed, and he got a > $250 > rebate). > > As for the things that Joe Schmoe would notice that are broken about it, > well, > let's enumerate shall we? > > 1) This smartphone (PalmOS) came with a driver and install disc for win32. > Well, it doesn't work. I get a GPF whenever I try to install software > onto > the phone using this software. This is just a Treo 700p from Verizon > Wireless. Very common. Yet, I plugged it into my Kubuntu box and as soon > as > I loaded the visor kernel module, this thing worked pretty well with > kpilot. > > 2) *MANY* programs are 100% incompatible with Vista. This allSnap program > I > use in order to snap windows to the edge (a feature that most X window > managers have had for quite some time) won't execute. Windows "detects > problems" and is "unable to resolve" them. > > 3) I picked up a Linksys wireless network extender (let's you plug in > ethernet > and access your wireless network) and tried to configure it, thinking the > windows install would work the quickest (sorry, I'm lazy > sometimes). Well, > when I went to run the configuration tool on the CDROM, I got a "windows > has > detected a problem" and it wouldn't run. I called their (Linksys') > support > number and found out that Vista is not supported. So I asked what IP and > port and default authentication information was the default for the > device, > plugged it into my GNU/Linux/KDE box and it only took me 2 minutes to do > what > I'd just wasted more than ten times that trying to do with Vista. > > 4) This thing hits the 3D for everything. My machine pumps out a > considerable > amount of heat. Not overheating, but I can only imagine how much extra > juice > it's burning needlessly. > > 5) The graphics drivers for Vista are crap. Both ATI and NVidia are > playing > hell trying to get their drivers to work. These nvidia drivers on this > machine now leave yellow lines on the screen during boot, and when the > screensaver runs I get all sorts of weird artifacts on the screen. ATI > users > of Vista will have scarier stories on that as ATI doesn't know how to > write > drivers for general computers to save their lives. > > 6) USB doesn't wake up after resume. If you have your wireless adapter on > USB, you have to constantly disconnect and reconnect it when resuming from > sleep. > > 7) Everything asks you if you want to send data to Microsoft. They ask if > you > want to "help improve Microsoft products" for damn-near everything. These > options are checked by default, and have "(Recommended)" next to the "Yes" > radio button. > > Well, that's all I feel like typing right now. I may put up a second > edition > of this later. Dunno. I feel better now. > > -- > ~ manchicken <>< > (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer. > The number of the beast - vi vi vi > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< > (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer > The number of the beast - vi vi vi > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- greenarrow1 InNetInvestigations-Forensic SuSe 10.2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/ea150b70/attachment.htm From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Sun Apr 29 22:10:30 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> Message-ID: <1213.192.168.1.1.1177899030.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I'd be more than shameless. I'd be elated. I get worked up easy. That would be awesome. Jacob > On Sunday 29 April 2007 16:29:41 Don Hensley wrote: >> Well, that is what I do; build 100% GNU/Linux systems: >> http://donhensley.com >> >> Unfortunately I am not even a small company, I'm a "Just me" company. >> I'm >> just a retired guy that does this strictly by referral and then only >> with >> people I can directly interface with. I just do not have the time (or >> health) to try to do support any other way. >> >> But find a LUG in your area, and ask if some one will build you a >> system. >> You will find lots of people that can do it and many that would be >> pleased >> to make a buck or two. >> >> But best of all, you would meet some really nice helpful people that >> way, >> and discover a great support system. Join a LUG today. >> >> And Dell is making noise about a "Linux" pre load, but it will be very >> unlikely to be a 100% Free Software system. >> >> Mandriva sells pre loaded computers, unfortunately also not 100% Free >> software. >> >> Don. >> ***************************************************** >> On Sunday 29 April 2007 01:05 pm, Wayne Moore wrote: >> I am aware of that list, thanks. ?While that does help when shopping for >> components to build your own system, I think it would be very useful to >> know if there are any "off-the-shelf" systems that the big (or small) >> hardware vendors sell, that would work with 100% free software - this >> would >> help those that cannot build their own systems. > > I love OEM GNU/Linux. It's nice, and it's well supported. There needs to > be > more laptop OEM GNU/Linux going around. I would love a gNewSense (maybe > even > gNewSense with KDE) lappy OEM that was affordable with good hardware. I > don't know if you've priced it lately folks, but at Wal-Mart or Best Buy, > you > can get Vista-loaded machines for roughly the price of the OS (after > rebates). And these are pretty beefy machines too. 2GHz core duo, 1.5GB > RAM, 80GB+ hard drives, all for arount USD$600, and often times they come > with rebates. I seriously saw one earlier while I was buying my lawn > mower. > > System76 is the only OEM GNU/Linux provider that I've seen that has > customizable laptops, and they're awful pricey (though I still drool and > would love to have one, gran, if you're on this mailing list... > anyway...). > If there are any more OEM lappy retailers that allow more customization > and > offer excellent support, I would love to know about it. We need more OEM. > OEM is the future. OEM is the only reason why Vista is selling, and OEM > is > the way that we can truely free the users. > > All that said, Don Hensley, do you make customizable lappies at reasonable > prices? Or does anybody else do so? I'd love to share that information > with > everybody I possibly could. Maybe we could all make shameless plug pages > on > our respective sites with links to OEM retailers who sell Free Software > loaded machines. > > -- > ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< > (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer > The number of the beast - vi vi vi > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 22:10:57 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:10:57 +0000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704291833.41189.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704291742.27443.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292026.18651.manchicken@members.fsf.org> <200704291833.41189.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: > **************************** Interesting discussion here. I would suggest a GNU with the same size as Windows and Mac, with a smaller Tux to denote the kernel Linux (GNU must be larger than Tux to symbolize the relationship). It is basically the dynamic duo. http://www.gnu.org/graphics/graphics.html Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 22:15:45 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:15:45 +0000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <1213.192.168.1.1.1177899030.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> <1213.192.168.1.1.1177899030.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: The FSF has produced a list of hardware that works/don't works with free software, albeit small. http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us Sun Apr 29 22:36:50 2007 From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:36:50 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux Message-ID: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com> I have been watching the Portland Project for Linux, which is a Linux distribution combining KDE and GNOME together to work on 1 single desktop. If anyone is interested there are descriptions and further links here: http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS2649626642.html This could possibly be our edge in the fight against Microsoft. I also have been testing GoBoLinux as they are working on modifying the Linux file directory. We all have to remember this is still based on the Unix system which is over 20 years old. No matter how much I have used Linux systems it amazes me trying to find files and dependencies which I know could really be changed to simplify the file system. Using one distro does not mean the file in another distro will be in the same place or for that matter have the same name, ie, libfuse has 5 different names in searches I have done for it or it is embedded in another program in a distro. This is a needed part of compiz which operates 3D for Gnome, which for some reason was not placed in the new update release so this means a user has to search this out then download and install. This is one of the problems I see in Linux which a new user would not be able to comprehend or figure out. This is also very valuable for anyone playing games on Linux in 3D. I have to further test this on other distros to see if developers caught this or this is a OpenSuSe issue only or if I have to submit a bug to Gnome or Xorg. George greenarrow1 InNetInvestigations-Forensic SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache GoBoLinux -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/a5b9c1b0/attachment.htm From greenarrow1 at opensuse.us Sun Apr 29 22:41:44 2007 From: greenarrow1 at opensuse.us (member greenarrow1) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:41:44 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> <1213.192.168.1.1.1177899030.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <26d2590704291941w28b31b51kb6b437fee8a6af1b@mail.gmail.com> I do not see Nvidia in Video Cards on their list. I have been using their Linux drivers for 2 years plus have a source link for updates for OpenSuSe. On the Nvidia site there are Linux drivers but if they are compatible with all distros is according to whatever arch they are using. On 4/29/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > The FSF has produced a list of hardware that works/don't works with > free software, albeit small. > > http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > George greenarrow1 InNetInvestigations-Forensic SuSe 10.2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070429/0dad954c/attachment.htm From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Sun Apr 29 22:51:37 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:51:37 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <26d2590704291941w28b31b51kb6b437fee8a6af1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> <200704292035.40408.manchicken@members.fsf.org> <1213.192.168.1.1.1177899030.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <26d2590704291941w28b31b51kb6b437fee8a6af1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <463559B9.30109@binaryfreedom.info> I'm confused are you talking about the non-free nvidia drivers or the free ones? the non-free unfortunately are used or available on non-free GNU/Linux distros, also the GNU/Linux drivers from the nvidia website are also non-free.. Nvidia has no free drivers but there is a project that is working on this very hard and have made big progress... http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FrontPage to promote the non-free Nvidia drivers is awfully wrong better is to concentrate the energy creating Free drivers and helping those how already started to do so. Chris F. BinaryFreedom Founder. member greenarrow1 wrote: > I do not see Nvidia in Video Cards on their list. I have been using > their Linux drivers > for 2 years plus have a source link for updates for OpenSuSe. On the > Nvidia site > there are Linux drivers but if they are compatible with all distros is > according to whatever > arch they are using. > > On 4/29/07, *Koh Choon Lin* > wrote: > > The FSF has produced a list of hardware that works/don't works with > free software, albeit small. > > http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > George > greenarrow1 > InNetInvestigations-Forensic > SuSe 10.2 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From fred.k at ieee.org Sun Apr 29 21:48:46 2007 From: fred.k at ieee.org (Fred Okuma) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:48:46 +0900 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <200704291422.07010.Don@donhensley.com> References: <200704291404.05683.Don@donhensley.com> <38471.192.168.1.1.1177881308.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291422.07010.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I hope someone will, too. Fred At 14:22 -0700 2007/04/29, Don Hensley wrote: >... >Possibly some one will come forward. >... From fred.k at ieee.org Sun Apr 29 22:50:47 2007 From: fred.k at ieee.org (Fred Okuma) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:50:47 +0900 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <4634F7AD.8040703@syntaktisk.dk> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw is a good starting point but I need more compatibility-list-for-dummies thing. It will look like: (example) Fedora Ubuntu debian ------------------------------------------------- Dell model a ok ng ok Dell model b ng ok ok HP model a ok ng no sound HP model b ok screen resolution 1024 or less only ... (this will be very big and terribly labor-intensive to make. Does someone already maintaining such table?) Device-by-device compatibility listings are great and so are distro-by-distros. Even they tell you if your machine or card will be compatible with any derivative of GNU/Linux, I won't, or supposedly many would-be-Linux-convert people won't, either, bother to look for that geeky compatibility tables. Also, I vote for please-don't-let-me-text-edit-xorg.conf camp. GUI settings are better than text editing for many non-geek people, I believe, you don't have to remember bunch of parameter names or conf file names with, who knows, their pathnames. Newbie Linuxers like me definitely need local support, preferably face-to-face. (I am lucky to have such a person but still have spent 3+ years before switching to GNU/Linux.) Pointers to local user groups will help people make decision to leave MicroSoft behind. (Oh, I don't use Micro$oft here because money is only the second problem with them. MS is suffocating us in many ways.) As for Macs, my inclination is 'leave them alone.' Mac OS is proprietary, that is bad but unless Apple tries to take our freedom away deliberately, it's not a big enemy and we want to save our resources. It's my assumption that Apple is not doing evil but correct me if I'm wrong. (Although Apple does not grant our freedom intentionally, either, right?) Fred From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 23:08:16 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 03:08:16 +0000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <4634F7AD.8040703@syntaktisk.dk> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > As for Macs, my inclination is 'leave them alone.' Mac OS is > proprietary, that is bad but unless Apple tries to take our freedom > away deliberately, it's not a big enemy and we want to save our > resources. It's my assumption that Apple is not doing evil but > correct me if I'm wrong. (Although Apple does not grant our freedom > intentionally, either, right?) I was about to buy a MacBook when it was just released, it seems like a bargain. But after looking over the many features that would not be usable (I run only free software), I drop it from my list. Apple, like Microsoft, has released some free software. But they are non-important components that we actually have free alternative which are better technically. The two companies refuse to free any important software. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From anivar at movingrepublic.org Sun Apr 29 23:25:07 2007 From: anivar at movingrepublic.org (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:55:07 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] What Ubuntu should do to regain my Confidence In-Reply-To: References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <46356193.4060406@movingrepublic.org> See http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/User:Pravs/What_Ubuntu_should_do_to_regain_my_confidence Anivar From open07 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 23:58:42 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 03:58:42 +0000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] What Ubuntu should do to regain my Confidence In-Reply-To: <46356193.4060406@movingrepublic.org> References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> <46356193.4060406@movingrepublic.org> Message-ID: > See > http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/User:Pravs/What_Ubuntu_should_do_to_regain_my_confidence > That is a good piece of information to help us explain why Ubuntu should not be used. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From fred.k at ieee.org Mon Apr 30 00:01:20 2007 From: fred.k at ieee.org (Fred Okuma) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:01:20 +0900 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux In-Reply-To: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com> References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 19:36 -0700 2007/04/29, member greenarrow1 wrote: >...This is one of the problems I see in Linux which a new user would >not be able to >comprehend or figure out. ... I agree. Need local support, more stable or problem-free distros, to stop Vista and MS. Fred From fred.k at ieee.org Sun Apr 29 23:51:20 2007 From: fred.k at ieee.org (Fred Okuma) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:51:20 +0900 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <200704291409.42608.Don@donhensley.com> <39968.192.168.1.1.1177881871.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291541.41292.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: At 02:00 +0000 2007/04/30, Koh Choon Lin wrote: >... >Similarly, if Internet Banking requires usage of the non-free Sun's >Java, we should refuse to use it and instead take a walk to the bank. >... Aha! I would walk to the bank , too, and punch 10 command lines into the ATM.... only when I have energy to do so, sorry. Right, I don't think we push every person to be 100% free-software-only but rather aware of Vista thing and xx.x% free (larger the better). Fred From open07 at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 00:36:23 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 04:36:23 +0000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <200704291409.42608.Don@donhensley.com> <39968.192.168.1.1.1177881871.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704291541.41292.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: > Aha! I would walk to the bank , too, and punch 10 command lines into > the ATM.... only when I have energy to do so, sorry. Right, I don't > think we push every person to be 100% free-software-only but rather > aware of Vista thing and xx.x% free (larger the better). Our goal is 100% free, though I understand this may take time. There are countless people whom I know personally feel that using free software on Windows is enough. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From manchicken at members.fsf.org Mon Apr 30 00:37:16 2007 From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:37:16 -0500 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] What Ubuntu should do to regain my Confidence In-Reply-To: References: <46356193.4060406@movingrepublic.org> Message-ID: <200704292337.17074.manchicken@members.fsf.org> On Sunday 29 April 2007 22:58:42 Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > See > > http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/User:Pravs/What_Ubuntu_should_do_to_regain_my_c > >onfidence > > That is a good piece of information to help us explain why Ubuntu > should not be used. > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate I think that's a rather loaded thing to say. Maybe you should focus more on trying to explain why non-free software shouldn't be used rather than focusing on free software distributions that need some better leadership. I also hear that at the Ubuntu Developer's Summit here next week we'll be hearing about GNUbuntu, an official Ubuntu version and FSF-approved version of ubuntu (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-November/013261.html). -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi From manchicken at members.fsf.org Mon Apr 30 00:42:49 2007 From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:42:49 -0500 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704292342.49669.manchicken@members.fsf.org> On Sunday 29 April 2007 23:36:23 Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > Aha! I would walk to the bank , too, and punch 10 command lines into > > the ATM.... only when I have energy to do so, sorry. Right, I don't > > think we push every person to be 100% free-software-only but rather > > aware of Vista thing and xx.x% free (larger the better). > > Our goal is 100% free, though I understand this may take time. There > are countless people whom I know personally feel that using free > software on Windows is enough. > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate I think this is hijacking this list a little bit. Let us remain focused on Vista, not on in-fighting. I understand you've got issues with the non-free stuff in some distros, and I do too. But we need to work on that without petty fighting and name-calling. Ubuntu is a massive distribution with a wide user-base. I think the goal here should be to encourage Ubuntu to move towards freedom, not to get a bunch of people to switch again. The goal is to respect freedom, not to be mean or self-righteous. -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi From markdarb at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 01:00:57 2007 From: markdarb at gmail.com (Mark William Darbyshire) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:00:57 +1200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <4634F7AD.8040703@syntaktisk.dk> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44b952b0704292200w542793e1q129fa4b7e55f5866@mail.gmail.com> The GNU/Linux compatible systems Dell is working on will indeed be compatible with popular GNU/Linux distros, but not with a 100% free distro. Whilst Dell recognises the importance of using open hardware and developing open drivers, it will only do this where cheaply possible. I think it's a somewhat sensible approach, but it would be nice if Dell could go the full length by releasing a completely open and free software friendly system. There's a very interesting blog post about this at http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/03/28/9655.aspx On 30/04/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > > As for Macs, my inclination is 'leave them alone.' Mac OS is > > proprietary, that is bad but unless Apple tries to take our freedom > > away deliberately, it's not a big enemy and we want to save our > > resources. It's my assumption that Apple is not doing evil but > > correct me if I'm wrong. (Although Apple does not grant our freedom > > intentionally, either, right?) > > I was about to buy a MacBook when it was just released, it seems like > a bargain. But after looking over the many features that would not be > usable (I run only free software), I drop it from my list. > > Apple, like Microsoft, has released some free software. But they are > non-important components that we actually have free alternative which > are better technically. The two companies refuse to free any important > software. > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- Mark William Darbyshire 18 Gilmore Street Te Puke 3119 New Zealand +64 7 573 8823 +64 27 65 66 462 +64 7 347 4308 Website: http://markdarb.googlepages.com Google Talk: markdarb at gmail.com Skype: markdarb MSN/Live Messenger: markdarb at gmail.com "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." -John 3:5 Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/fced67da/attachment.htm From markdarb at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 01:08:48 2007 From: markdarb at gmail.com (Mark William Darbyshire) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:08:48 +1200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux In-Reply-To: References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> I agree. I'm a relatively new user to free software (and I'm not even using GNU/Linux at the moment because I'm only a teenager so can't afford my own computer and the only computer I was allowed to install GNU on broke :'( ). I find the layout of files in Linux *VERY* confusing in comparison to Windows or Mac, both of which have much more straight-forward and common-sense system folder setups. It's not a problem if I'm just using a package manager, but it gets very difficult if I ever want to do something manually. Perhaps experienced users have a better understanding of why things are the way they are, but I just wish all the programs were in subfolders of one central applications folder! It's my understanding that the folders are the way they are because of limitations which existed twenty years ago, but which aren't a problem today. On 30/04/07, Fred Okuma wrote: > > At 19:36 -0700 2007/04/29, member greenarrow1 wrote: > >...This is one of the problems I see in Linux which a new user would > >not be able to > >comprehend or figure out. ... > > I agree. Need local support, more stable or problem-free distros, to > stop Vista and MS. > > Fred > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- Mark William Darbyshire 18 Gilmore Street Te Puke 3119 New Zealand +64 7 573 8823 +64 27 65 66 462 +64 7 347 4308 Website: http://markdarb.googlepages.com Google Talk: markdarb at gmail.com Skype: markdarb MSN/Live Messenger: markdarb at gmail.com "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." -John 3:5 Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/5ac337ef/attachment-0001.htm From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 02:44:45 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:14:45 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux In-Reply-To: <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com> <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't know what you mean by confusing, because I find the filesystem layout in Linux much more meaningful than the filesystem layout in windows, maybe it'll take you a day or two to get used to. I'll ask you to look at the filesystem layout in a logical way and you'll see that it's nicely arranged for simplicity. I mean how hard is it for you to find a system configuration file in windows. But in linux it's very easy. If you run in to any troubles erfer to man pages or ask in a forum :) I'm also a teenager (16) so I don't have my own computer, but I'm running linux on my machine, maybe you can dual boot windows and linux together. cheers On 4/30/07, Mark William Darbyshire wrote: > > I agree. I'm a relatively new user to free software (and I'm not even > using GNU/Linux at the moment because I'm only a teenager so can't afford my > own computer and the only computer I was allowed to install GNU on broke :'( > ). I find the layout of files in Linux *VERY* confusing in comparison to > Windows or Mac, both of which have much more straight-forward and > common-sense system folder setups. It's not a problem if I'm just using a > package manager, but it gets very difficult if I ever want to do something > manually. Perhaps experienced users have a better understanding of why > things are the way they are, but I just wish all the programs were in > subfolders of one central applications folder! It's my understanding that > the folders are the way they are because of limitations which existed twenty > years ago, but which aren't a problem today. > > On 30/04/07, Fred Okuma wrote: > > > > At 19:36 -0700 2007/04/29, member greenarrow1 wrote: > > >...This is one of the problems I see in Linux which a new user would > > >not be able to > > >comprehend or figure out. ... > > > > I agree. Need local support, more stable or problem-free distros, to > > stop Vista and MS. > > > > Fred > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > > > > > -- > Mark William Darbyshire > 18 Gilmore Street > Te Puke 3119 > New Zealand > > +64 7 573 8823 > +64 27 65 66 462 > +64 7 347 4308 > > Website: http://markdarb.googlepages.com > Google Talk: markdarb at gmail.com > Skype: markdarb > MSN/Live Messenger: markdarb at gmail.com > > "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the > Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." -John 3:5 > > Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/f33990d9/attachment.htm From news at adolflam.com Mon Apr 30 03:01:07 2007 From: news at adolflam.com (news@adolflam.com) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: <58923.164.78.248.57.1177916467.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> >> One thing about Windows users is that most of them arent to that level >> of >> computing that they would be interested in geek topics on computer OS, >> even if they even bother to visit such forum at the first place. > > I believe the reason why the FSF started the BadVista campaign is due > to a possible "sudden mass reduction of software freedom" if Vista is > adopted by the public and this is a real socio-political issue about > demanding for freedom, which everyone should be concerned about, > rather than about geek-ness. > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com Currently in this campaign, we used many superficial lacks of Windows Vista to demote it. Bashing and flaming without any proper goal would only make us seems like fools. Although it is true like many vista users complained, this campaign should focus on the ethics and ideal of free software instead. The technical flaws of Windows Vista currently may not be permanent, so it may become a turn-point of this 'war'. So when people start using Vista when it is 'stabilised', we lost. Lam YongXian Adolf AT www.adolflam.com From news at adolflam.com Mon Apr 30 03:19:55 2007 From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:19:55 +0800 (SGT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <15623.164.78.248.57.1177917595.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> > Please correct this ridiculous notion: > http://texyt.com/Microsoft+bets+Windows+Vista+fewer+bugs+than+XP+066 > Don't let Microsoft brainwash the media! > Comrade Ringo Kamens > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > They maybe true. Or I should say, it is misleading, not completely false. Vista may have lesser bug than XP, considering the version of XP that was just released. But to me, that statement is only going to slap microsoft's mouth by saying that XP is has even more bug than Vista =D Lam YongXian Adolf AT www.adolflam.com From news at adolflam.com Mon Apr 30 03:49:45 2007 From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:49:45 +0800 (SGT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55631.164.78.248.57.1177919385.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> > You all at least heard about the Get a Mac ad campaign from Apple right? > > Video works quite well at presenting information, (whether if they > holds truth is another story.), and IMHO there is a lack of free > software video. All the current free software activities are good per > se, but the general public needs to know what we are talking about, > and lots of them may not have the time, or lack of attention span to > read through the stuff on badvista. > > So, here's my idea for an ad video, just very briefly: > > ======================================= > Once upon a time, there was an ordinary family, they first seem to be > doing to ordinary stuff, the son goes to school everyday, their > parents work at day. > > One day, Big Brother(M$) steps in, and goes out of his way to command > how the family should work, makes the craziest decisions one can > imagine and gets paid by the family for doing it. The family doesn't > like it, but yet relies on it, and simply have to obey everything BB > says. > > Later on, when the kid in the family reach his teens, he met a > beautiful girl (Mac), and starts to rebel against the Big Brother, and > the parents was relieved from having to take orders from Big Brother > and are happy. The down side is, the girl demands a lot of the family > as well, although not just precisely dictating how everything should > work, she caused the boy into an unhealthy state. > > Finally, they met a wisdom old man (GNU), and was free from all the > restrictive things, and was free forever. > ======================================= > > Like I said, just a very brief idea... but if you think it has > potential, feel free to add details, tweak it, play around with it.... > > i think it would be beneficial if some kind of video can > metaphorically explain to the general public, and these days with the > high bandwidth internet and stream video, it isn't so hard to > distribute the video, especially if it is creative and entertaining, > and lots of people has done it like Apple, Sun Microsystems, and even > Google, so yea. > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > I like the storyline. Simple and clear =) But who is going to make the video? Lam YongXian Adolf AT www.adolflam.com From d_n at Loryx.com Mon Apr 30 03:55:07 2007 From: d_n at Loryx.com (d_n@Loryx.com) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:55:07 +0300 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: <58923.164.78.248.57.1177916467.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com>, , <58923.164.78.248.57.1177916467.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: <4635CB0B.23575.312454A@d_n.Loryx.com> On 30 Apr 2007 at 0:01, news at adolflam.com wrote: > Currently in this campaign, we used many superficial lacks of > Windows > Vista to demote it. Bashing and flaming without any proper goal > would only > make us seems like fools. Although it is true like many vista > users > complained, this campaign should focus on the ethics and ideal of > free > software instead. The technical flaws of Windows Vista currently may > not > be permanent, so it may become a turn-point of this 'war'. So when > people > start using Vista when it is 'stabilised', we lost. Even more so, it's going to be tough to overcome the inertia of M$ bundling Vista on new PC's -- yet this could work in our favor. Most people don't know that they can save hundreds of $'s by refusing the default Vista installation, and going GNU/Linux instead. Perhaps this is another strong, positive tack? See this article, to realize the economic effect of this. http://abcnews.go.com/Business/IndustryInfo/story?id=3091665&page=1 A Cloudy Vista Clears Microsoft's Bright Quarterly Earnings Show Consumers Want New Operating System SYNOPSIS: Early doubts about the sales of Microsoft's Vista operating system have been scattered by a better-than-expected Q1 2007 earnings report. The software monolith says revenues in its OS division were up 67 percent, much better than expected, thanks to strong sales of Vista. From news at adolflam.com Mon Apr 30 04:06:29 2007 From: news at adolflam.com (Lam YongXian) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:06:29 +0800 (SGT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1171.192.168.1.1.1177787542.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <44073.164.78.248.57.1177920389.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> > Dear all > > I feel that, when advocating for BadVista, we must not recommend > another proprietary software to replace Vista! That would be just as > bad. > > I have a rather ambitious idea to expand the BadVista campaign, maybe > we can setup a gratis CDs shipping service for gNewSense a la ShipIt > of Canonical? > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > Yes. There is a need to avocate free software at the same time, instead of simply Vista-not-OpenSource?, Vista-is-full-of-bug,Vista-is-expensive, etc. But how do you plan to start? Lam YongXian Adolf AT www.adolflam.com From sunnzy at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 07:29:30 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:29:30 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: <55631.164.78.248.57.1177919385.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> References: <55631.164.78.248.57.1177919385.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: 2007/4/30, Lam YongXian : > > > I like the storyline. Simple and clear =) > But who is going to make the video? > I don't know, I'd like to do it but I don't know enough friends and don't have the necessary props and equipment to do so... that's why I posted here hopefully people can meet and get something done. > Lam YongXian > Adolf AT www.adolflam.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From hom.sepanta at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 07:50:31 2007 From: hom.sepanta at gmail.com (Mostafa Razavi) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:20:31 +0330 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux In-Reply-To: <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com> <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4635D807.4040202@gmail.com> Mark William Darbyshire wrote: > I agree. I'm a relatively new user to free software (and I'm not even > using GNU/Linux at the moment because I'm only a teenager so can't > afford my own computer and the only computer I was allowed to install > GNU on broke :'( ). I find the layout of files in Linux /VERY/ > confusing in comparison to Windows or Mac, both of which have > much more straight-forward and common-sense system folder setups. It's > not a problem if I'm just using a package manager, but it gets very > difficult if I ever want to do something manually. Perhaps experienced > users have a better understanding of why things are the way they are, > but I just wish all the programs were in subfolders of one central > applications folder! It's my understanding that the folders are the > way they are because of limitations which existed twenty years ago, > but which aren't a problem today. > I'm not gonna say that the Linux file system is perfect (nothing is), but I think your understanding of "straight-forward and common-sense" is "trained" by a Windows world. I find the Linux (and generally Unix-based) file system arrangement much more rational and consistent, and I think you find it "confusing" only because you're not used to it. Also, would you explain, please, what you mean by "the folders are the way they are because of limitations which existed twenty years ago, but which aren't a problem today." I think Unix file system was designed this way at that time because the designers found it a rational structure (whether they were right or wrong) not because of the limitations. Am I wrong? And another thing. I switched to Linux several months ago at the age of 22, and I regret why I didn't do that years ago at high school; my computer at that time was shared (my brother and sister used it, too) but I could use a dual boot (although, maybe it wasn't as straight-forward as it is today). Homayoon From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Mon Apr 30 08:01:56 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista first impressions. Message-ID: <55567.138.162.128.56.1177934516.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Test machine was an MPC P4, 1GB RAM, 80GB SATA, ATI X300/X550. Install platform was 32 bit. We have one thing working for us. The learning curve from XP to Vista is huge. The start menu is kind of confusing, the window animations are actually dizzying. Everytime you click on something, it asks you, "Windows needs confirmation to continue. You clicked on this program: Do you wish to continue?" EVERY time. 3 of the 4 thumbdrives I used, worked. But my Jump Drive Secure software didn't work. I couldn't access my encrypted partition on it. The other 2 thumb drives were a Memorex 512MB Travel Drive, and a SimpleTech Bonzai SD reader. The non-working one was a GenX 128MB (Made by Samsung, the same company that makes XBox CD/DVD-ROMS!). Apache 2.2 for Windows wouldn't install. It just wouldn't. The ActiveX controls for VB that were previously installed on XP by default seem not to be there. This was discovered just by running some VB apps that I had from a past life. It does run some of the 16 bit applications that I had. It played MP3's, and an MPG, but would not play the AVI that I had, though I'm not entirely sure which AVI format it was. Since Vista is entirely different than XP inasmuch as the interface is redesigned, we may have some great leverage from that. The new learning curve for Vista would be just as steep as learning a GNU/Linux GUI. I'll try playing with Vista a little more today. I'll report more as the investigation continues. Jacob From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Mon Apr 30 08:06:08 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Addition to last message Message-ID: <4977.138.162.128.56.1177934768.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> By the way, the low pin count interface on the motherboard was disabled. I don't know if finding the driver would help this. But it is a little suspicious since this is where the PCI interface takes place. I don't know. You can read more about it at: http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/29065503.pdf Jacob From open07 at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 08:19:16 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:19:16 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] An ad campaign idea In-Reply-To: References: <55631.164.78.248.57.1177919385.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: > > I like the storyline. Simple and clear =) > > But who is going to make the video? Hi Adolf Since both of us are in the same city, maybe we can meet up and produce something? Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From hom.sepanta at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 08:19:57 2007 From: hom.sepanta at gmail.com (Mostafa Razavi) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:49:57 +0330 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Microsoft Says "Vista has less bugs than XP" In-Reply-To: <15623.164.78.248.57.1177917595.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> References: <3922422b0704281005r4d04e8feg5f1152f1c449be8f@mail.gmail.com> <15623.164.78.248.57.1177917595.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: <4635DEED.80308@gmail.com> > But to me, that statement is only going to slap microsoft's > mouth by saying that XP is has even more bug than Vista =D It's their old tactic. When a new product comes out, the previous one becomes rubbish! And then, Microsoft is not reluctant to tell you how many problems it had. When I used Windows, I always had a really bad feeling about this. Sometimes I wondered "is it the same product once they were saying is so great?" > it is misleading, not completely false. No one put is better than Benjamin Disraeli: "There are lies, damned lies and benchmarks." Homayoon From manchicken at members.fsf.org Mon Apr 30 09:27:46 2007 From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:27:46 -0500 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux In-Reply-To: <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com> <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200704300827.47078.manchicken@members.fsf.org> On Monday 30 April 2007 00:08:48 Mark William Darbyshire wrote: > I agree. I'm a relatively new user to free software (and I'm not even using > GNU/Linux at the moment because I'm only a teenager so can't afford my own > computer and the only computer I was allowed to install GNU on broke :'( ). > I find the layout of files in Linux *VERY* confusing in comparison to > Windows or Mac, both of which have much more straight-forward and > common-sense system folder setups. It's not a problem if I'm just using a > package manager, but it gets very difficult if I ever want to do something > manually. Perhaps experienced users have a better understanding of why > things are the way they are, but I just wish all the programs were in > subfolders of one central applications folder! It's my understanding that > the folders are the way they are because of limitations which existed > twenty years ago, but which aren't a problem today. > > On 30/04/07, Fred Okuma wrote: > > At 19:36 -0700 2007/04/29, member greenarrow1 wrote: > > >...This is one of the problems I see in Linux which a new user would > > >not be able to > > >comprehend or figure out. ... > > > > I agree. Need local support, more stable or problem-free distros, to > > stop Vista and MS. > > > > Fred > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocate mailing list > > Advocate at badvista.org > > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate No, the folders are the way they are because it makes sense. MacOS is a UNIX operating system and has a rather similar filesystem. They merely present it differently in their GUIs. If you want that, KDE has rather simplistic approach to this that I think you may like. Kubuntu and gNewSense with KDE work quite nicely, too. -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi From improperintegral at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 09:38:51 2007 From: improperintegral at gmail.com (Kevin Dwyer) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:38:51 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: I don't intend on really participating in this debate, but in order to affect change you need to have some kind of power. If you can't draw accelerated 3D graphics, and you can't use the little gadgets that makes everyone's life easier, you won't gain significant market share to defeat the closed alternatives. I wouldn't hate on Ubuntu too hard. -kpd On 4/29/07, Koh Choon Lin wrote: > > The key is actually in distribution, not in the binary blobs, per se. > > > > Their lack of commitment to freedom is bothering me big time, as > expressed by Fedora Max Spevack: > > "Ubuntu is one example, as there is very strong language about their > commitment to Free and open source software, right up until the line > stating that they include binary-only drivers on their CDs and in > their repositories." > > http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy > > http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/licensing > > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu Mon Apr 30 10:24:02 2007 From: matthew.flaschen at gatech.edu (Matthew Flaschen) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:24:02 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> Kevin Dwyer wrote: > I don't intend on really participating in this debate, but in order to > affect change you need to have some kind of power. If you accept proprietary drivers, what incentive do they have to provide free ones? Matt Flaschen From improperintegral at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 10:32:58 2007 From: improperintegral at gmail.com (Kevin Dwyer) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:32:58 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> Message-ID: On 4/30/07, Matthew Flaschen wrote: > > If you accept proprietary drivers, what incentive do they have to > provide free ones? If I reject proprietary drivers, what incentive do they have to provide free ones? The fact remains that there are not yet enough people to hold sway on this issue. I'm sympathetic to the cause, naturally, but I'm not willing to live in a technological cave for it, and I don't think you can expect to attract the large numbers necessary if this is the sacrifice they will have to endure. If I reject proprietary drivers, I just can't use my computer to the fullest potential. I'm already at somewhat of a handicap by using Linux, but Linux does everything I need it to do and does it well. From manchicken at members.fsf.org Mon Apr 30 10:41:00 2007 From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:41:00 -0500 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> References: <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> Message-ID: <200704300941.00933.manchicken@members.fsf.org> On Monday 30 April 2007 09:24:02 Matthew Flaschen wrote: > Kevin Dwyer wrote: > > I don't intend on really participating in this debate, but in order to > > affect change you need to have some kind of power. > > If you accept proprietary drivers, what incentive do they have to > provide free ones? > > Matt Flaschen > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate I don't think we need to accept non-free drivers, but I also don't think we need to beat up on folks who're using them. It's not the user's fault that these folks are failing to release specs, and it's not the user's fault that the hardware vendors are restricting their freedom. That said, when it is possible non-free drivers should be avoided. By time you've got a device requiring a non-free driver, the bad guy has already profited. The solution is to avoid the hardware that requires the driver, not the driver itself. And we should insist that these drivers are not included in default installs of our distribution of choice. As much as folks hate on Ubuntu, these drivers are still in repositories and not on default install discs. The way to change it here is to be involved in our distro of choice, and raise loud objections when non-free drivers get worked into the mix. Beating up the victim isn't really the answer here. Let's try going after the offender. Boy are we off topic. -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi From Don at donhensley.com Mon Apr 30 10:43:16 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:43:16 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200704300743.17142.Don@donhensley.com> Hi Kevin, You are correct about market share. The goal is, of course, to have Free Software, rather then proprietary software, that does those things you mention. And I wouldn't be too bothered about Ubuntu either. They actually stay reasonably close within the lines, yes there are some binary blobs in the distro, but most of the real problem stuff is just on mirrors, and not directly distributed with the distro. I could roll up my own blob and offer it if I choose, and the end user could load it on his gNewSense system, if they choose to do so. No problem in so far as the GPL is concerned (my blob could not be GPL'd though, if I will not release the source and the right to modify, etc.). The only GPL issue is with distribution, not what the end user does on their own computer. But then there is the philosophical side... which is where some people come from --There is a difference between the GNU Project and the GPL, one is the philosophy and the other is a Copyright License (Copy Left). So that is the only place I might take a slightly different tack then you. When you say; " in order to affect change you need to have some kind of power", I would agree. I would not agree that an idea, by it's self has no power. As a matter of fact they (ideas) are about the only thing that ever has affected change, often they have changed the world. That's one of the reasons the list here is actually supposed to be about the problems that Vista imposes --ideas like DRM, Treacherous Computing. The loss of freedom to use something you own (your computer). It is natural for people to get a bit sidetracked, and I generally just try to bring things back in focus, as best I can. But I also rarely ever (or try not to) feed the OT parts of the list. Often people have some very valuable things to offer, even if along with that comes a particular viewpoint, often strongly held. So strongly hat it can bleed over into another topic. As the Ubuntu (or discussion of any distro other then Vista, and it's problems). Why not hop over to http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy and lend a had getting this on track? Thanks, Don. ************************************************ On Monday 30 April 2007 06:38 am, Kevin Dwyer wrote: I don't intend on really participating in this debate, but in order to affect change you need to have some kind of power. ?If you can't draw accelerated 3D graphics, and you can't use the little gadgets that makes everyone's life easier, you won't gain significant market share to defeat the closed alternatives. ?I wouldn't hate on Ubuntu too hard. -kpd -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Mon Apr 30 10:49:06 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Portland Project Linux In-Reply-To: <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <26d2590704291936l44933e79h10a64fab67bd1374@mail.gmail.com> <44b952b0704292208p61d5b893p427e5bcdd272e0d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4504.138.162.128.38.1177944546.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> For your GNU/Linux problem, get Knoppix to run as a Live supplement. Save your profile on a thumbdrive or external hard drive. Or, just install any distro to an external drive and boot to the external. As for the folder issue, this was one I've been thinking about. Of course, you should realize that users are only intended to be using their desktop and home folders, for the most part. Other interaction should not be done if you don't know what you're doing. It is a little confusing. This is one of the other big things that people need to be trained on when switching from Windows. Jacob > I agree. I'm a relatively new user to free software (and I'm not even > using > GNU/Linux at the moment because I'm only a teenager so can't afford my own > computer and the only computer I was allowed to install GNU on broke :'( > ). > I find the layout of files in Linux *VERY* confusing in comparison to > Windows or Mac, both of which have much more straight-forward and > common-sense system folder setups. It's not a problem if I'm just using a > package manager, but it gets very difficult if I ever want to do something > manually. Perhaps experienced users have a better understanding of why > things are the way they are, but I just wish all the programs were in > subfolders of one central applications folder! It's my understanding that > the folders are the way they are because of limitations which existed > twenty > years ago, but which aren't a problem today. > > On 30/04/07, Fred Okuma wrote: >> >> At 19:36 -0700 2007/04/29, member greenarrow1 wrote: >> >...This is one of the problems I see in Linux which a new user would >> >not be able to >> >comprehend or figure out. ... >> >> I agree. Need local support, more stable or problem-free distros, to >> stop Vista and MS. >> >> Fred >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate >> > > > > -- > Mark William Darbyshire > 18 Gilmore Street > Te Puke 3119 > New Zealand > > +64 7 573 8823 > +64 27 65 66 462 > +64 7 347 4308 > > Website: http://markdarb.googlepages.com > Google Talk: markdarb at gmail.com > Skype: markdarb > MSN/Live Messenger: markdarb at gmail.com > > "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the > Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." -John 3:5 > > Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Mon Apr 30 11:03:21 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:03:21 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <200704300941.00933.manchicken@members.fsf.org> References: <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> <200704300941.00933.manchicken@members.fsf.org> Message-ID: <200704300803.22064.Don@donhensley.com> Hi Michael, I have your post about actually using Vista, and I've been trying to find time to thank you for it. I'm hoping for more such input. Possibly I could influence you into dropping in at http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy Over on the Binary Freedom site. I am not sure how many people on this list know that the Binary Freedom people are officially listed by GNU.org as one of the "Sites about the use and development of free software". They are doing a good job of trying to do something about many of today's software related problems. They rather surprised me by just grabbing a potential outline I posted, in the hope of starting to bring order to this, and created a BadVista Advocacy Wiki, using my (horribly) rough proposed outline. It needs all the help it can get, so any edits, comments, additions would be very welcome. Thanks, Don. **************************************************** On Monday 30 April 2007 07:41 am, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: I don't think we need to accept non-free drivers, but I also don't think we need to beat up on folks who're using them. ?It's not the user's fault that these folks are failing to release specs, and it's not the user's fault that the hardware vendors are restricting their freedom. That said, when it is possible non-free drivers should be avoided. ?By time you've got a device requiring a non-free driver, the bad guy has already profited. ?The solution is to avoid the hardware that requires the driver, not the driver itself. ?And we should insist that these drivers are not included in default installs of our distribution of choice. ?As much as folks hate on Ubuntu, these drivers are still in repositories and not on default install discs. The way to change it here is to be involved in our distro of choice, and raise loud objections when non-free drivers get worked into the mix. ?Beating up the victim isn't really the answer here. ?Let's try going after the offender. Boy are we off topic. -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 11:07:26 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:37:26 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista first impressions. In-Reply-To: <55567.138.162.128.56.1177934516.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <55567.138.162.128.56.1177934516.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: when i read your post it looks like Linux is faaaaar better than vista. I mean i don't have any problems with any kind of media formats in Linux, and all of my thumb drives works well with linux :) Maybe we can add a place in the bad vista site for ppl to express their troubles with vista, what do you guys think cheers On 4/30/07, Jacob Maynard wrote: > > Test machine was an MPC P4, 1GB RAM, 80GB SATA, ATI X300/X550. Install > platform was 32 bit. > > We have one thing working for us. The learning curve from XP to Vista is > huge. The start menu is kind of confusing, the window animations are > actually dizzying. Everytime you click on something, it asks you, "Windows > needs confirmation to continue. You clicked on this program: > Do you wish to continue?" EVERY time. > > 3 of the 4 thumbdrives I used, worked. But my Jump Drive Secure software > didn't work. I couldn't access my encrypted partition on it. The other 2 > thumb drives were a Memorex 512MB Travel Drive, and a SimpleTech Bonzai SD > reader. The non-working one was a GenX 128MB (Made by Samsung, the same > company that makes XBox CD/DVD-ROMS!). > > Apache 2.2 for Windows wouldn't install. It just wouldn't. > > The ActiveX controls for VB that were previously installed on XP by > default seem not to be there. This was discovered just by running some VB > apps that I had from a past life. > > It does run some of the 16 bit applications that I had. > > It played MP3's, and an MPG, but would not play the AVI that I had, though > I'm not entirely sure which AVI format it was. > > Since Vista is entirely different than XP inasmuch as the interface is > redesigned, we may have some great leverage from that. The new learning > curve for Vista would be just as steep as learning a GNU/Linux GUI. > > I'll try playing with Vista a little more today. I'll report more as the > investigation continues. > > Jacob > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com Don't send me word attachments. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/a5dc53da/attachment.htm From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Mon Apr 30 11:17:11 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista first impressions. In-Reply-To: References: <55567.138.162.128.56.1177934516.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <50758.138.162.128.38.1177946231.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I worry about that type of post taking a turn for the ugly, like your blog. But we could ask for input and have an e-mail address where people can send their perceptions of Vista. That way, we can filter against the pro-Windows people. Maybe we can create a part on the binary freedom wiki that WE can edit and give the issues that we have. This would be separate from the idealogical problems with Vista. It would be ACTUAL problems. That's my opinion. Jacob > when i read your post it looks like Linux is faaaaar better than vista. I > mean i don't have any problems with any kind of media formats in Linux, > and > all of my thumb drives works well with linux :) > > Maybe we can add a place in the bad vista site for ppl to express their > troubles with vista, what do you guys think > > cheers > > On 4/30/07, Jacob Maynard wrote: >> >> Test machine was an MPC P4, 1GB RAM, 80GB SATA, ATI X300/X550. Install >> platform was 32 bit. >> >> We have one thing working for us. The learning curve from XP to Vista is >> huge. The start menu is kind of confusing, the window animations are >> actually dizzying. Everytime you click on something, it asks you, >> "Windows >> needs confirmation to continue. You clicked on this program: >> Do you wish to continue?" EVERY time. >> >> 3 of the 4 thumbdrives I used, worked. But my Jump Drive Secure software >> didn't work. I couldn't access my encrypted partition on it. The other 2 >> thumb drives were a Memorex 512MB Travel Drive, and a SimpleTech Bonzai >> SD >> reader. The non-working one was a GenX 128MB (Made by Samsung, the same >> company that makes XBox CD/DVD-ROMS!). >> >> Apache 2.2 for Windows wouldn't install. It just wouldn't. >> >> The ActiveX controls for VB that were previously installed on XP by >> default seem not to be there. This was discovered just by running some >> VB >> apps that I had from a past life. >> >> It does run some of the 16 bit applications that I had. >> >> It played MP3's, and an MPG, but would not play the AVI that I had, >> though >> I'm not entirely sure which AVI format it was. >> >> Since Vista is entirely different than XP inasmuch as the interface is >> redesigned, we may have some great leverage from that. The new learning >> curve for Vista would be just as steep as learning a GNU/Linux GUI. >> >> I'll try playing with Vista a little more today. I'll report more as the >> investigation continues. >> >> Jacob >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate >> > > > > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > > Don't send me word attachments. > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Mon Apr 30 11:17:56 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:17:56 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Addition to last message In-Reply-To: <4977.138.162.128.56.1177934768.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <4977.138.162.128.56.1177934768.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704300817.56800.Don@donhensley.com> Jacob, I can't think of any direct reason that having the LPC interface disabled would matter. None of the devices you mention should have anything to do with what amounts to legacy hardware. That does not mean that some thing is not possibly going on there --chip sets are complicated beasts. How about taking your thoughts and posts (don't stop posting here!), over to http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy and giving a hand building some 'on topic' info about Vista. We really need people with hands on Vista experience to help out. Thanks, Don. ****************************************** On Monday 30 April 2007 05:06 am, Jacob Maynard wrote: By the way, the low pin count interface on the motherboard was disabled. I don't know if finding the driver would help this. But it is a little suspicious since this is where the PCI interface takes place. I don't know. You can read more about it at: http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/29065503.pdf Jacob _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Mon Apr 30 11:18:14 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <200704300803.22064.Don@donhensley.com> References: <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> <200704300941.00933.manchicken@members.fsf.org> <200704300803.22064.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <54305.138.162.128.38.1177946294.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Don, Do we all have the ability to edit that, or are you the one responsible for it? Jacob > > Hi Michael, > > I have your post about actually using Vista, and I've been trying to find > time > to thank you for it. > > I'm hoping for more such input. > > Possibly I could influence you into dropping in at > http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy > Over on the Binary Freedom site. I am not sure how many people on this > list > know that the Binary Freedom people are officially listed by GNU.org as > one > of the "Sites about the use and development of free software". > > They are doing a good job of trying to do something about many of today's > software related problems. > > They rather surprised me by just grabbing a potential outline I posted, in > the > hope of starting to bring order to this, and created a BadVista Advocacy > Wiki, using my (horribly) rough proposed outline. > > It needs all the help it can get, so any edits, comments, additions would > be > very welcome. > > Thanks, > Don. > **************************************************** > On Monday 30 April 2007 07:41 am, Michael D. Stemle, Jr. wrote: > I don't think we need to accept non-free drivers, but I also don't think > we > need to beat up on folks who're using them. ?It's not the user's fault > that > these folks are failing to release specs, and it's not the user's fault > that > the hardware vendors are restricting their freedom. > > That said, when it is possible non-free drivers should be avoided. ?By > time > you've got a device requiring a non-free driver, the bad guy has already > profited. ?The solution is to avoid the hardware that requires the driver, > not the driver itself. ?And we should insist that these drivers are not > included in default installs of our distribution of choice. ?As much as > folks > hate on Ubuntu, these drivers are still in repositories and not on default > install discs. > > The way to change it here is to be involved in our distro of choice, and > raise loud objections when non-free drivers get worked into the mix. > ?Beating up the victim isn't really the answer here. ?Let's try going > after > the offender. > > Boy are we off topic. > > -- > ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< > (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer > The number of the beast - vi vi vi > > -- > GNU/Linux is the future. > Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 > Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From Don at donhensley.com Mon Apr 30 11:20:32 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:20:32 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista first impressions. In-Reply-To: <50758.138.162.128.38.1177946231.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <55567.138.162.128.56.1177934516.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <50758.138.162.128.38.1177946231.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704300820.32860.Don@donhensley.com> You can edit at http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy Edit all you want, that's the idea! Don. ****************************************** On Monday 30 April 2007 08:17 am, Jacob Maynard wrote: I worry about that type of post taking a turn for the ugly, like your blog. But we could ask for input and have an e-mail address where people can send their perceptions of Vista. That way, we can filter against the pro-Windows people. Maybe we can create a part on the binary freedom wiki that WE can edit and give the issues that we have. This would be separate from the idealogical problems with Vista. It would be ACTUAL problems. That's my opinion. Jacob -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Mon Apr 30 11:22:37 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:22:37 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <54305.138.162.128.38.1177946294.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <200704300803.22064.Don@donhensley.com> <54305.138.162.128.38.1177946294.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <200704300822.37569.Don@donhensley.com> No the folks at Binary Freedom just set it up, come on over and get to work! Please. Thanks, Don. ******************************************* On Monday 30 April 2007 08:18 am, Jacob Maynard wrote: Don, Do we all have the ability to edit that, or are you the one responsible for it? Jacob -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 11:25:12 2007 From: yasith.vidanaarachchi at gmail.com (Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:55:12 +0530 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word Message-ID: Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and spread the word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at www.tuxv.blogspot.com cheers -- \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| http://tuxv.blogspot.com Don't send me word attachments. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/348e4b20/attachment.htm From sunnzy at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 11:29:52 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 01:29:52 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, didn't notice there was such graphics that I could use, thanks, this would be great! Now, has anyone seen the Warner Wake up call post on that site? http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/warner_music_wake_up_call I think Warener is very sturnborn and indeed needs a wake up call... unfortunately I am not in the US, but those in the US should help out if you can. 2007/5/1, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi : > Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and spread the > word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from > > http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button > > I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at www.tuxv.blogspot.com > > cheers > > -- > \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ > .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ > |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| > http://tuxv.blogspot.com > > Don't send me word attachments. > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Mon Apr 30 11:37:28 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:37:28 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> Message-ID: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> I can't agree 100% I do agree in some blending but with out changing the core of our ideals.. First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux, second, you choose to buy that nice 3d card... now you must use the proprietary driver.. I see there a choice you made that was the wrong choice.. in the small cases were the card came with your computer already, then I advise to help the people at http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ for a real free driver.. we can't promote proprietary drivers or anything non-free, we cant stop people from using it.. but you can't tell someone to use them neither.. as of now gNewSense is the only distro we can promote.. if we don't like it then lets work in making gnewsense better, we are in need of developers to help... if this project is going to promote non-free I am going to stand on the side. what It though of this project was: 1. to point the defects of Windows or any other proprietary OS later. so we can't shoot our own feet, are we in one side or the other. 2. to promote FreeSoftware with FreeSoftware OS to archive point 3. 3. we are trying to show people a choice but not to hook them up on steroids sacrificing our ideals to convince them to move. we are what we are.. we are not the open source community.. but the FreeSoftware community and we have political ideals. if they don't like it they never will, I agree that some people may need to open their eyes with some candy already in windows.. but I don't agree we should tell them that what they are doing is right.. or that running proprietary is right, that is for *them* to think and choose. we are the messengers they are the ones who need to make a choice we can't force them with candy till they give up, and as the messengers we have to always give the right example and messengers.. I don't whant to hear.. well the guys at badvista said is ok for me to run Windows as long I have gimp,openoffice,firefox... bla bla.. then we are missing the whole point. even do I say it again.. I do agree that we can blend a bit to archive a bigger result but we can do this with out compromising the root ideals. Chris F. -- FSF member #697 BinaryFreedom Founder gNewSense Developer. Freedom Figther. the LOLOLO. Spanish! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/13890a81/rek2.vcf From improperintegral at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 11:49:21 2007 From: improperintegral at gmail.com (Kevin Dwyer) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:49:21 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT. Message-ID: On 4/30/07, rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO wrote: > First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux, Call it whatever you want but please stop bothering people about it. I'm not trying to get RMS to speak at my LUG, so I tend to use the shorthand, which is also the more commonly understood term. Not to mention more obviously pronounceable and therefore a far better marketing choice. > second, you choose to buy that nice 3d card... now you must use the > proprietary driver.. I see there a choice you made that was the wrong > choice.. in the small cases were the card came with your computer > already, then I advise to > help the people at http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ for a real free > driver.. Thanks for lecturing me on how bad I am for wanting to play a video game on my computer, use Beryl, and for wanting to use a PCI wireless card. It sounds like BadEndUser rather than BadVista. You will not gain support with that attitude. > we can't promote proprietary drivers or anything non-free, > we cant stop people from using it.. but you can't tell someone to use > them neither.. > as of now gNewSense is the only distro we can promote.. if we don't like > it then lets work in > making gnewsense better, we are in need of developers to help... > > if this project is going to promote non-free I am going to stand on the > side. > what It though of this project was: > 1. to point the defects of Windows or any other proprietary OS later. > so we can't shoot our own feet, are we in one side or the other. > 2. to promote FreeSoftware with FreeSoftware OS to archive point 3. > 3. we are trying to show people a choice but not to hook them up on > steroids sacrificing our ideals to convince them to move. we are what we > are.. we are not the open source community.. but the FreeSoftware > community and we have political ideals. > if they don't like it they never will, I agree that some people may need > to open their eyes with some candy already in windows.. but I don't > agree we should tell them that what they are doing is right.. or that > running proprietary is right, that is for *them* to think and choose. I thought that this project was anti-Vista because of the dangerous policies and technologies they are introducing, viz. DRM, Trusted Computing, etc. I don't think it's quite the same fight as the anti-proprietary fight. One may be a subset of the other, but I personally think the fight for digital rights is the more important one, and the reason I decided to join this list. Am I incorrect in my reading of the BadVista party programme? If so, I apologize and will happily leave. Do you intend to tolerate others who want to fight for some of the same causes or do you intend to alienate them? -kpd From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Mon Apr 30 11:54:42 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> Message-ID: <52271.138.162.128.38.1177948482.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> I hate to say it, but it seems that there needs to be some structure of leadership in this project. Our goal that we are undertaking is a HUGE ordeal. We can sit here and pass these e-mails back and forth all year, and Vista will just grow stronger. It's about action. I think, by this structure of leadership, we could then accomplish all goals at once with distribution of the work. Maybe not even a structure of leadership, just teams that can accomplish the same tasks together. For example, we could have a "Testers" group with those people who have access to Vista, an "Authors" group who will write the articles, a "Public Affairs" group to handle media coverage and advertisements, an "Executive" group who would ensure that all information is correct and presented in the right format as well as form a course of action (by popular vote) to decide the direction of this campaign, etc. Obviously, we would all be volunteering in this project, so our own jobs in it are kind of with our grace, but it would be nice if we could use the people who had certain skills for the jobs we will be hurting on. To the proprietary/free drivers; I can see that we are going to be at constant war with each other on this until we get the support of hardware vendors. This may be something to vote on. I know that we don't like the idea of proprietary because it is against our ideals, but we can't wait for the free alternative to come about because the problem is on us now. Vista will do nothing but sell more while we wait to have completed, free drivers. My personal opinion is that these proprietary drivers are still in support of GNU/Linux by even producing them for the system. Therefore, they are still assisting us. Maybe it would be okay to say that a small number of proprietary drivers are, not endorsed, but used in our Vista alternative. That's my opinion. Jacob > I can't agree 100% I do agree in some blending but with out changing the > core of our ideals.. > > First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux, > second, you choose to buy that nice 3d card... now you must use the > proprietary driver.. I see there a choice you made that was the wrong > choice.. in the small cases were the card came with your computer > already, then I advise to > help the people at http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ for a real free > driver.. > > we can't promote proprietary drivers or anything non-free, > we cant stop people from using it.. but you can't tell someone to use > them neither.. > as of now gNewSense is the only distro we can promote.. if we don't like > it then lets work in > making gnewsense better, we are in need of developers to help... > > if this project is going to promote non-free I am going to stand on the > side. > what It though of this project was: > 1. to point the defects of Windows or any other proprietary OS later. > so we can't shoot our own feet, are we in one side or the other. > 2. to promote FreeSoftware with FreeSoftware OS to archive point 3. > 3. we are trying to show people a choice but not to hook them up on > steroids sacrificing our ideals to convince them to move. we are what we > are.. we are not the open source community.. but the FreeSoftware > community and we have political ideals. > if they don't like it they never will, I agree that some people may need > to open their eyes with some candy already in windows.. but I don't > agree we should tell them that what they are doing is right.. or that > running proprietary is right, that is for *them* to think and choose. > > we are the messengers they are the ones who need to make a choice we > can't force them with candy till they give up, and as the messengers we > have to always give the right example and messengers.. I don't whant to > hear.. well the guys at badvista said is ok for me to run Windows as > long I have gimp,openoffice,firefox... bla bla.. then we are missing the > whole point. > even do I say it again.. I do agree that we can blend a bit to archive a > bigger result but we can do this with out compromising the root ideals. > > Chris F. > -- > > FSF member #697 > BinaryFreedom Founder > gNewSense Developer. > Freedom Figther. > the LOLOLO. > Spanish! > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Mon Apr 30 12:01:07 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:01:07 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463612C3.6030005@binaryfreedom.info> Kevin Dwyer wrote: > > Call it whatever you want but please stop bothering people about it. > I'm not trying to get RMS to speak at my LUG, so I tend to use the > shorthand, which is also the more commonly understood term. Not to > mention more obviously pronounceable and therefore a far better > marketing choice. > > This is not about RMS, is about us. is easy to attack one man. that man just carries our msg. and you can call it the wrong name if you wish.. but you are confusing people so not helping. if you going to tell people you should use this OS you should educate them the right way. this is not about sales or marketing. >> second, you choose to buy that nice 3d card... now you must use the >> proprietary driver.. I see there a choice you made that was the wrong >> choice.. in the small cases were the card came with your computer >> already, then I advise to >> help the people at http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ for a real free >> driver.. >> > > Thanks for lecturing me on how bad I am for wanting to play a video > game on my computer, use Beryl, and for wanting to use a PCI wireless > card. It sounds like BadEndUser rather than BadVista. You will not > gain support with that attitude. > no comments.. you said it all. > > I thought that this project was anti-Vista because of the dangerous > policies and technologies they are introducing, viz. DRM, Trusted > Computing, etc. I don't think it's quite the same fight as the > anti-proprietary fight. One may be a subset of the other, but I > personally think the fight for digital rights is the more important > one, and the reason I decided to join this list. Am I incorrect in my > reading of the BadVista party programme? If so, I apologize and will > happily leave. > Is anti-vista but we are also giving an option.. what option you want to give them? the other less free option that will give you the same problems in the long run? you want to promote anti-vista showing MacOSX or any distro with also restrictive problems? I can't lie to people and tell them "here use this OS because is all different than Windows" but it is? is there any distro out there that is really 100% not like windows? yes just one.. gNewSense. > Do you intend to tolerate others who want to fight for some of the > same causes or do you intend to alienate them? > you are alienating yourself because you don't agree that if we are going to give FreeSoftware as a choice we have to give Free Software, if we are going to just badmouth windows and not give and option, then I agree with you but while we promote free software we have to promote it the right way with the right terms. > -kpd > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- FSF member #697 BinaryFreedom Founder gNewSense Developer. Freedom Figther. the LOLOLO. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/855fdc2b/rek2.vcf From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 12:02:50 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:02:50 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (Michael =?utf-8?Q?F=C3=B6tsch's?= message of "Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:39:19 -0700 (PDT)") References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87odl56ead.fsf@spider.localnet> Michael F?tsch writes: > How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and > effort? Could BadVista host this? > I really like this idea, and we could definitely host this kind of FAQ. Perhaps someone else on the list has a wiki they can open up for the purpose of getting it written? I'd be happy to chime in and help with some of the writing and editing as well. In fact I have a draft document around that was written to help people get started with free software when we were originally planning the BadVista site. I can dig that up and contribute it to the effort. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From gregory at civicactions.com Mon Apr 30 12:07:34 2007 From: gregory at civicactions.com (Gregory Heller) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:07:34 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46361446.7040901@civicactions.com> Thanks Sunnz! We are about to add an "open letter" to the site, like the one we did for steve jobs, this one to Edgar Bronfman, so people will be able to sign it regardless of where they live! For others who are in the US, take a few minutes to make a few calls to warner today, and look for the open letter in the next few hours. -Gregory Sunnz wrote: > Oh, didn't notice there was such graphics that I could use, thanks, > this would be great! > > Now, has anyone seen the Warner Wake up call post on that site? > > http://www.defectivebydesign.org/actions/warner_music_wake_up_call > > I think Warener is very sturnborn and indeed needs a wake up call... > unfortunately I am not in the US, but those in the US should help out > if you can. > > 2007/5/1, Yasith Lahiru Vidanaarachchi : > >> Add a defective by design button to your blog, website etc. and spread the >> word that DRM is bad, you can get buttons and banners from >> >> http://defectivebydesign.org/promo/button >> >> I've already added a banner and a button to my blog at www.tuxv.blogspot.com >> >> cheers >> >> -- >> \ \ / /__ _ __ (_) | |_ | |_ >> .\ V// _` |(_-< | || _| | ' \ >> |_| \__,_|/__/ |_| \__||_||_| >> http://tuxv.blogspot.com >> >> Don't send me word attachments. >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate >> >> >> > > > -- ---- Gregory Heller AIM/SKYPE: GregoryHeller http://www.CivicActions.com Changing the world one node at a time! The content of this email message is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License, Some Rights Reserved. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ From open07 at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 12:11:43 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:11:43 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> Message-ID: > First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux, > we can't promote proprietary drivers or anything non-free, > we cant stop people from using it.. but you can't tell someone to use > them neither.. Let's all agree on this two points first. 1. We cannot stop people from referring to GNU as Linux but we ourselves must examine if we made the same mistake. 2. We cannot promote proprietary software at all. No point telling people not to use if we use them ourselves. Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Mon Apr 30 12:15:40 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:15:40 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> <4635FC02.9000908@gatech.edu> <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> Message-ID: <4636162C.5050503@binaryfreedom.info> this is exactly what I mean..thanks Koh, we are not here to tell people what to call it or what to install in their computers.. but ourself and this is why I bring it up here not in public, we must promote/call it the right way. give the right msg. I don't think that is so misleading or hard to accomplish when promoting and option for a OS none of us like. Koh Choon Lin wrote: >> First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux, >> > > >> we can't promote proprietary drivers or anything non-free, >> we cant stop people from using it.. but you can't tell someone to use >> them neither.. >> > > Let's all agree on this two points first. > > 1. We cannot stop people from referring to GNU as Linux but we > ourselves must examine if we made the same mistake. > > 2. We cannot promote proprietary software at all. No point telling > people not to use if we use them ourselves. > > > Regards > > Koh Choon Lin > Singapore GNU Group > > singapore.gnu.googlepages.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- FSF member #697 BinaryFreedom Founder gNewSense Developer. Freedom Figther. the LOLOLO. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/3016044c/rek2.vcf From Don at donhensley.com Mon Apr 30 12:15:46 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:15:46 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Vista owners In-Reply-To: <87odl56ead.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <20070428133919.25044.qmail@web35809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <87odl56ead.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <200704300915.46743.Don@donhensley.com> Here you go John, http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy courtesy of the Binary Freedom folks. Edit away --Please! Don. ********************** On Monday 30 April 2007 09:02 am, John Sullivan wrote: Michael F?tsch writes: > How many people do we have here who'd be willing to invest some time and > effort? Could BadVista host this? I really like this idea, and we could definitely host this kind of FAQ. Perhaps someone else on the list has a wiki they can open up for the purpose of getting it written? I'd be happy to chime in and help with some of the writing and editing as well. In fact I have a draft document around that was written to help people get started with free software when we were originally planning the BadVista site. I can dig that up and contribute it to the effort. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From open07 at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 12:16:16 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:16:16 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Help Spread the word In-Reply-To: <46361446.7040901@civicactions.com> References: <46361446.7040901@civicactions.com> Message-ID: > For others who are in the US, take a few minutes to make a few calls to > warner today, and look for the open letter in the next few hours. For all digital freedom activists in south east asia, we can pen an open letter to ASEAN for a reformasi movement. Interested personal please contact me. Thanks! Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From Don at donhensley.com Mon Apr 30 12:20:27 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:20:27 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> References: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> Message-ID: <200704300920.27460.Don@donhensley.com> Absolutely. That is why I try to make the point about the GPL being different from the GNU Project. One is a Free Software License, the other a Free Software philosophy. And the main thing about the philosophical side of the 4 Freedoms, is that DRM, and Treacherous Computing, and closed source binary blobs are horrible, soul destroying, Freedom stealing things. We must lead people to the water, when they see others enjoying the cool free sweetness they too will join in. The trick to leading them to the pure water is to lead softly, I think. Beating a mule never works too well. Of course strong opines carry strong feelings, as they should. A good trick RMS has is stating his feeling and only trampling on a minimal (well as minimal as he can make it) number of toes. Kevin, you should try to at least attend, or even watch a podcast of RMS, he is not eloquent, but when he speaks it is well though through on the points he makes. It being GNU/Linux is one of those well thought through points. I agree that marketing wise, it doesn't make a great sound bite, and the GNU is not nearly as cute as Tux. But how much of that is because it's what we have been 'trained' to accept by the media? If every reporter from back when had used GNU/Linux it would sound 'normal' to people now, and "Linux" would be properly understood as the kernel --a very important part it is. But in the final anayliss the GNU came first... by a very long time. Don. ***************************** On Monday 30 April 2007 08:37 am, rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO wrote: I can't agree 100% I do agree in some blending but with out changing the core of our ideals.. First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux, second, you choose to buy that nice 3d card... now you must use the proprietary driver.. I see there a choice you made that was the wrong choice.. in the small cases were the card came with your computer already, then I advise to help the people at http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ for a real free driver.. we can't promote proprietary drivers or anything non-free, we cant stop people from using it.. but you can't tell someone to use them neither.. as of now gNewSense is the only distro we can promote.. if we don't like it then lets work in making gnewsense better, we are in need of developers to help... if this project is going to promote non-free I am going to stand on the side. what It though of this project was: 1. to point the defects of Windows or any other proprietary OS later. so we can't shoot our own feet, are we in one side or the other. 2. to promote FreeSoftware with FreeSoftware OS to archive point 3. 3. we are trying to show people a choice but not to hook them up on steroids sacrificing our ideals to convince them to move. we are what we are.. we are not the open source community.. but the FreeSoftware community and we have political ideals. if they don't like it they never will, I agree that some people may need to open their eyes with some candy already in windows.. but I don't agree we should tell them that what they are doing is right.. or that running proprietary is right, that is for *them* to think and choose. we are the messengers they are the ones who need to make a choice we can't force them with candy till they give up, and as the messengers we have to always give the right example and messengers.. I don't whant to hear.. well the guys at badvista said is ok for me to run Windows as long I have gimp,openoffice,firefox... bla bla.. then we are missing the whole point. even do I say it again.. I do agree that we can blend a bit to archive a bigger result but we can do this with out compromising the root ideals. Chris F. -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From Don at donhensley.com Mon Apr 30 12:20:44 2007 From: Don at donhensley.com (Don Hensley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:20:44 -0700 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC In-Reply-To: <700683.53373.qm@web35805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <700683.53373.qm@web35805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200704300920.44980.Don@donhensley.com> Hi M.F., You can tell when a list is beginning to grow --one starts having to distinguish between people named Michael (or Don, etc.). I've read your posts and have been expecting you over at http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy to get to work. We could really use the help. Bring that talent for writing "executive summaries", and the experience of actually having daily use with gNewSense as your normal environment, on over and put them to use. Please! BTW, you can edit the pages --it's a Wiki. So just add what ever fits where ever you think it fits. If other people see a way to make it fit better, or what ever they will just move it around and or do some editing of there own. Always sounds odd to think of other people changing your work (at least it does to me) but then I'm always surprised how often some one else manages to express my idea better then I could. Strange, no? Hope to see your additions soon, Don. ******************************* On Sunday 29 April 2007 11:13 am, Michael F?tsch wrote: Ringo Kamens wrote: > Update: There is a page on the BinaryFreedom wiki here: > http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy > Please update it/add more information. Let's turn this plan into reality! Great! I guess it's time to get some work done... Kind Regards, M.F. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Advocate mailing list Advocate at badvista.org http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate -- GNU/Linux is the future. Join the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=4458 Get the Real Facts: http://BadVista.org From jyes at no-log.org Mon Apr 30 12:19:26 2007 From: jyes at no-log.org (jyes) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 18:19:26 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT. In-Reply-To: <463612C3.6030005@binaryfreedom.info> References: <463612C3.6030005@binaryfreedom.info> Message-ID: <4636170E.30200@no-log.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sorry for being offtopic but I try to follow this mailing list to find any help I could bring, and I do not understand why is gNewSense the only distro that you consider free. I mean, I'm no Ubuntu but Debian user, and after the installation and if you do not add repos in apt sources you get only DFSG compliant software. I know there is still the issue with blobs in the kernel release with etch, but is this the only difference between Debian and gNewSense ? In fact, if it is, I could switch to gNewSense and stop compiling my own kernel with no firware in it. - -- Jean-S?bastien Kroll-Rabotin Happy debian user ! http://www.goodbye-microsoft.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGNhcO3qwCc2aFrOYRAjOrAKC0sHt4WhTtchS+b8eR280w3+veVwCfZS8g nECXzY+jK+1KPkEV9iSubo4= =FxUv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 12:24:54 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:24:54 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: (Kevin Dwyer's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:38:51 -0400") References: <200704291308.59698.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <87irbd6d9l.fsf@spider.localnet> "Kevin Dwyer" writes: > I don't intend on really participating in this debate, but in order to > affect change you need to have some kind of power. If you can't draw > accelerated 3D graphics, and you can't use the little gadgets that > makes everyone's life easier, you won't gain significant market share > to defeat the closed alternatives. I wouldn't hate on Ubuntu too > hard. Beryl runs with all free software when used with the correct hardware. Ubuntu isn't fully free software and doesn't seem to be headed that way, so it's not on our list of distributions to officially recommend. Certainly that would be the easier way to go in terms of getting more people to switch away from Vista right now, but it would also mean muddying our principles. So while people "on the ground" might help other people switch away from Vista by installing a variety of distributions, let's keep the official message of the campaign clear by only recommending the fully free ones like gNewSense. Thanks, -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 12:32:53 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:32:53 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> (Wayne Moore's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:49:15 +0100") References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <874pmx6cwa.fsf@spider.localnet> "Wayne Moore" writes: > I was thinking that it might be very useful to have the site list some > systems, laptops and/or desktop, configurations that will work with 100% free > software. The problem I often run into is that many people want to run > GNU/Linux but are afraid that some of the hardware they choose might not > work. For example, for someone wanting to buy a new machine, it would be > great to say go buy one of these [on the list], and your video card / webcam > / etc, will just work. Does anyone know of any vendor's prebuilt systems ( > e.g. Dell / HP / IBM) that would work? Otherwise, a list of components to > build your own desktops would be a good start. Yes, I would love to get more information like this into the FSF hardware list at http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw. I really like the idea of having a section that lists full systems that people could buy. If you haven't already sent us information about what hardware you are using with a fully free OS (gNewSense), please do. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 12:33:47 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:33:47 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> (Don Hensley's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:29:41 -0700") References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <4634F7AD.8040703@syntaktisk.dk> <92448cdd0704291305l438bbd31gd155f13ecaf15913@mail.gmail.com> <200704291429.41441.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <87y7k94yac.fsf@spider.localnet> Don Hensley writes: > Well, that is what I do; build 100% GNU/Linux systems: http://donhensley.com > Nice. I don't see you listed yet in our Service Directory. If you'd like to be, please email us an entry to include. That's at http://www.fsf.org/resources/service. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Mon Apr 30 12:36:01 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] GNU/Linux Hardware Configurations In-Reply-To: <874pmx6cwa.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <92448cdd0704291249t10489e4al849cbd19450377da@mail.gmail.com> <874pmx6cwa.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <8498.138.162.128.38.1177950961.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> http://wiki.binaryfreedom.info/index.php/BadVista_Advocacy Add a subject. Add a list. Jacob > "Wayne Moore" writes: > >> I was thinking that it might be very useful to have the site list some >> systems, laptops and/or desktop, configurations that will work with 100% >> free >> software. The problem I often run into is that many people want to run >> GNU/Linux but are afraid that some of the hardware they choose might not >> work. For example, for someone wanting to buy a new machine, it would be >> great to say go buy one of these [on the list], and your video card / >> webcam >> / etc, will just work. Does anyone know of any vendor's prebuilt systems >> ( >> e.g. Dell / HP / IBM) that would work? Otherwise, a list of components >> to >> build your own desktops would be a good start. > > Yes, I would love to get more information like this into the FSF hardware > list > at http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw. > > I really like the idea of having a section that lists full systems that > people > could buy. > > If you haven't already sent us information about what hardware you are > using > with a fully free OS (gNewSense), please do. > > -- > John Sullivan > Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | > http://badvista.org > 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org > Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | > http://www.fsf.org > > "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista > because it > wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins > it, of > course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." > --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 12:36:02 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:36:02 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] When will you start using Windows Vista? In-Reply-To: <58923.164.78.248.57.1177916467.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> (news@adolflam.com's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:01:07 -0700 (PDT)") References: <46333A57.2000804@holodeck1.com> <1168.202.148.160.27.1177768603.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> <58923.164.78.248.57.1177916467.squirrel@webmail.adolflam.com> Message-ID: <87slah4y6l.fsf@spider.localnet> news at adolflam.com writes: > Currently in this campaign, we used many superficial lacks of Windows > Vista to demote it. Bashing and flaming without any proper goal would only > make us seems like fools. Although it is true like many vista users > complained, this campaign should focus on the ethics and ideal of free > software instead. The technical flaws of Windows Vista currently may not > be permanent, so it may become a turn-point of this 'war'. So when people > start using Vista when it is 'stabilised', we lost. Very well said! We do want to point out the problems, but always in connection with freedom--like, "Here is an example of a security problem that Microsoft is going to take their time to fix, which you or someone else could fix right now if the source were accessible and legally modifiable and shareable." -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From open07 at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 12:36:25 2007 From: open07 at gmail.com (Koh Choon Lin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:36:25 +0800 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I thought that this project was anti-Vista because of the dangerous > policies and technologies they are introducing, viz. DRM, Trusted > Computing, etc. I don't think it's quite the same fight as the > anti-proprietary fight. One may be a subset of the other, but I > personally think the fight for digital rights is the more important > one, and the reason I decided to join this list. I would say all of us are disagreeing on the ideology behind the fights. I certainly do not expect everyone who fights DRM to feel strongly about free software as much as I do. Some fight DRM because of software freedom, while others fight for their civil liberties and so on. There are serious debates between each different social movements and this is to be expected. They can even be communist, anarchist, etc.. In fact, this contributes to our diversity in our community. What matters most is that we are standing together, strongly in agreement, to speak with the same voice: "DRM is a danger and we should reject it." Regards Koh Choon Lin Singapore GNU Group singapore.gnu.googlepages.com From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 12:40:50 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:40:50 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] RFC In-Reply-To: <200704282015.18409.Don@donhensley.com> (Don Hensley's message of "Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:15:18 -0700") References: <200704281848.24821.Don@donhensley.com> <200704282001.57571.Don@donhensley.com> <3922422b0704282004t5e7c080cua2ab51cf11bc84d7@mail.gmail.com> <200704282015.18409.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <87mz0p4xyl.fsf@spider.localnet> Don Hensley writes: > I was actually less interested in webrings in the conventional sense then I > was in a common badge, and a central point for that badge to point at. That > site can have the actual links to individual pages, with possibly brief > descriptions (provided by the web site owner). > Anyone have time and talent to whip up some BadVista badges? I'm happy to post them on the site. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From bzg at altern.org Mon Apr 30 12:50:07 2007 From: bzg at altern.org (Bastien) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 18:50:07 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Scenario contest for an ad campaign ? (was: An ad campaign idea) In-Reply-To: (Sunnz's message of "Sun\, 29 Apr 2007 03\:28\:33 +1000") References: Message-ID: <87ejm1u7r4.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> "Lam YongXian" writes: > I like the storyline. Simple and clear =) > But who is going to make the video? That the #1 issue. But why don't we sum up the different ways Badvista.org could help for such an initiative (money, people working in the ad/film business, etc) and then organize a scenario contest ? The winner(s) would be given the price: money, e-mail address of Spielberg, villa in hollywood, etc. and then they might be able to actually *make* the film. I'm sure some people in this list are familiar with the Cryptogram letter, and Bruce Schneier is very successful in organizing this kind of events. See the "Movie-Plot Threat Contest": http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0704.html#1 (Okay, at first glance a movie-plot scenario might look sexyier than a promote-GNU scenario but ... who knows?) -- Bastien From indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com Mon Apr 30 13:07:48 2007 From: indymaynard at maynard.homelinux.com (Jacob Maynard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [BadVista Advocacy] Slogan Message-ID: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> In my line of work, we use latin for a lot of our little icons and pictures. I was just thinking that we might include a group of latin words. Mens Mentis==Knowledge Libertas==Liberty Communis==Community If this is not acceptable, I would understand. Which brought me to another thought. Do we have someone who will do the translations for us? Truthfully, nations outside the U.S. are some of the biggest users of GNU/Linux. We may need to think to this one. Jacob From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Mon Apr 30 13:13:58 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:13:58 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [BadVista Advocacy] Slogan In-Reply-To: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <463623D6.9000005@binaryfreedom.info> Jacob Maynard wrote: > In my line of work, we use latin for a lot of our little icons and > pictures. I was just thinking that we might include a group of latin > words. > > Mens Mentis==Knowledge > Libertas==Liberty > Communis==Community > > If this is not acceptable, I would understand. > > Which brought me to another thought. Do we have someone who will do the > translations for us? Truthfully, nations outside the U.S. are some of the > biggest users of GNU/Linux. We may need to think to this one. > > Jacob > I am from Spain even do I live in Boston, US. you may have notes already with my grammar :-P please correct me when needed with private emails, I need to learn how to write proper English somehow :-) Iwill not to get on fire for it. Chris F. BinaryFreedom founder. gNewSense developer. From manchicken at members.fsf.org Mon Apr 30 13:16:57 2007 From: manchicken at members.fsf.org (Michael D. Stemle, Jr.) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:16:57 -0500 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> References: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> Message-ID: <200704301216.58430.manchicken@members.fsf.org> On Monday 30 April 2007 10:37:28 rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO wrote: > I can't agree 100% I do agree in some blending but with out changing the > core of our ideals.. > > First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux, > second, you choose to buy that nice 3d card... now you must use the > proprietary driver.. I see there a choice you made that was the wrong > choice.. in the small cases were the card came with your computer > already, then I advise to > help the people at http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ for a real free > driver.. > > we can't promote proprietary drivers or anything non-free, > we cant stop people from using it.. but you can't tell someone to use > them neither.. > as of now gNewSense is the only distro we can promote.. if we don't like > it then lets work in > making gnewsense better, we are in need of developers to help... > > if this project is going to promote non-free I am going to stand on the > side. > what It though of this project was: > 1. to point the defects of Windows or any other proprietary OS later. > so we can't shoot our own feet, are we in one side or the other. > 2. to promote FreeSoftware with FreeSoftware OS to archive point 3. > 3. we are trying to show people a choice but not to hook them up on > steroids sacrificing our ideals to convince them to move. we are what we > are.. we are not the open source community.. but the FreeSoftware > community and we have political ideals. > if they don't like it they never will, I agree that some people may need > to open their eyes with some candy already in windows.. but I don't > agree we should tell them that what they are doing is right.. or that > running proprietary is right, that is for *them* to think and choose. > > we are the messengers they are the ones who need to make a choice we > can't force them with candy till they give up, and as the messengers we > have to always give the right example and messengers.. I don't whant to > hear.. well the guys at badvista said is ok for me to run Windows as > long I have gimp,openoffice,firefox... bla bla.. then we are missing the > whole point. > even do I say it again.. I do agree that we can blend a bit to archive a > bigger result but we can do this with out compromising the root ideals. > > Chris F. I disagree. I think that with attitudes like this we're going to do nothing but continue to marginalize ourselves. We need to get distros not to put non-free stuff on the standard release, and we need to pressure non-free driver makers to release specs. Telling folks that the only way to be free is to buy a new laptop rather than using the one they already have is just not going to cut it. You're also over-simplifying the issue to 3D cards. There are devices that simply will not function with completely free drivers. Broadcoms are in a *LOT* of computers. What are we to say to users of broadcoms when they have hardware that won't function at all? Buy another one? I don't think so. We get them working as best they can now, and we move forward pressuring manufacturers and educating the user to make a better decision next time. Disregarding other distributions is a rather stupid move to make. gNewSense isn't a very tightly knit distribution yet. I look forward to GNUbuntu, but until then I'll stick with Kubuntu. I'll even recommend Kubuntu GNU/Linux to others. It's a solid build, and for most hardware it is possible to be completely free. -- ~ Michael D. Stemle, Jr. <>< (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer The number of the beast - vi vi vi From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Mon Apr 30 13:32:21 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2GNU/Linux) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:32:21 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <200704301216.58430.manchicken@members.fsf.org> References: <46360D38.4040607@binaryfreedom.info> <200704301216.58430.manchicken@members.fsf.org> Message-ID: <46362825.3060006@binaryfreedom.info> not going to comment much just to fix misunderstandings.. don't want to add fire. > > I disagree. I think that with attitudes like this we're going to do nothing > but continue to marginalize ourselves. We need to get distros not to put > non-free stuff on the standard release, and we need to pressure non-free > driver makers to release specs. > > Telling folks that the only way to be free is to buy a new laptop rather than > using the one they already have is just not going to cut it. > > I know I speak Spanish and my English is not that good.. but I never say we should tell people to ditch their computers.. I said " we should not promote non-free" what the user does on his computer is his bussines. but we can't promote non-free. > You're also over-simplifying the issue to 3D cards. There are devices that > simply will not function with completely free drivers. Broadcoms are in a > *LOT* of computers. What are we to say to users of broadcoms when they have > hardware that won't function at all? Buy another one? I don't think so. We > get them working as best they can now, and we move forward pressuring > manufacturers and educating the user to make a better decision next time. > > same as above.. > Disregarding other distributions is a rather stupid move to make. gNewSense > isn't a very tightly knit distribution yet. I look forward to GNUbuntu, but > until then I'll stick with Kubuntu. I'll even recommend Kubuntu GNU/Linux to > others. It's a solid build, and for most hardware it is possible to be > completely free. > > gNewSense is the only one that don't support non-free or makes it easy for people to use. if someone uses gNewSense and needs and nvidia driver is his choice to go to nvidia website and download it or not.. but for gNewSense to promote non-free Cheers. BinaryFreedom founder gNewSense developer From foetsch at yahoo.com Mon Apr 30 13:56:06 2007 From: foetsch at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_F=F6tsch?=) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Message-ID: <50745.94786.qm@web35805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Morten Juhl Johansen wrote: > Long story short, the reason I described Ubuntu as a poor example of > freedon is the examples mentioned - they are indeed rather willing to go > with ESRs approach of first gaining Linux popularity, and while doing > this promoting closed drivers for the moment. For those who haven't read it, "ESR's" masterplan is outlined here: http://catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html Here's some discussion and related links that I found quite interesting: http://www.libervis.com/article/ubuntu_cnr_com_and_world_domination Kind Regards, M.F. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 14:02:08 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:02:08 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: (Koh Choon Lin's message of "Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:58:27 +0800") References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> Message-ID: <87hcqx4u73.fsf@spider.localnet> "Koh Choon Lin" writes: >> It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about vista >> in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image out >> of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky >> distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). > > Maybe we can have screenshots of gNewSense and compare them with Vista > at the website? I'll gladly put up images like this. Just cool gNewSense screenshots would be nice to have. I'd also really like to have some screenshots of DRM errors to include in the What's Wrong with Vista article. Can anyone collect those? -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From gregory at civicactions.com Mon Apr 30 14:08:11 2007 From: gregory at civicactions.com (Gregory Heller) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:08:11 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Translation (Was Re: [BadVista Advocacy] Slogan In-Reply-To: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <4636308B.6020907@civicactions.com> DefectiveByDesign has a number of volunteer translators that could be tapped to do translation for BadVista Jacob Maynard wrote: > In my line of work, we use latin for a lot of our little icons and > pictures. I was just thinking that we might include a group of latin > words. > > Mens Mentis==Knowledge > Libertas==Liberty > Communis==Community > > If this is not acceptable, I would understand. > > Which brought me to another thought. Do we have someone who will do the > translations for us? Truthfully, nations outside the U.S. are some of the > biggest users of GNU/Linux. We may need to think to this one. > > Jacob > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > > -- ---- Gregory Heller AIM/SKYPE: GregoryHeller http://www.CivicActions.com Changing the world one node at a time! The content of this email message is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License, Some Rights Reserved. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 14:16:00 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:16:00 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT. In-Reply-To: (Kevin Dwyer's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:49:21 -0400") References: Message-ID: <87bqh54tjz.fsf@spider.localnet> "Kevin Dwyer" writes: > On 4/30/07, rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO wrote: >> First lets call it GNU or GNU/Linux, > > Call it whatever you want but please stop bothering people about it. > I'm not trying to get RMS to speak at my LUG, so I tend to use the > shorthand, which is also the more commonly understood term. Not to > mention more obviously pronounceable and therefore a far better > marketing choice. > We're not going to debate about this particular point on this mailing list. This campaign is about emphasizing the freedom of free software as an alternative to Vista's restrictions, and we believe that acknowledging the contribution the GNU project made to the operating system out of their desire to have freedom and not just good software is a very important step in this regard. [...] > I thought that this project was anti-Vista because of the dangerous > policies and technologies they are introducing, viz. DRM, Trusted > Computing, etc. I don't think it's quite the same fight as the > anti-proprietary fight. One may be a subset of the other, but I > personally think the fight for digital rights is the more important > one, and the reason I decided to join this list. Am I incorrect in my > reading of the BadVista party programme? If so, I apologize and will > happily leave. > If you disagree with us about what alternative to best promote (as we will only be promoting fully free GNU/Linux distributions), I hope you can still work with us on the other part of the campaign, which is to highlight the problems with Vista that you name. We can focus and work together where we agree---that's what I would like, anyway. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From jyes at no-log.org Mon Apr 30 14:29:19 2007 From: jyes at no-log.org (jyes) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:29:19 +0200 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [BadVista Advocacy] Slogan In-Reply-To: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> References: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <4636357F.1020903@no-log.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Even if I do not speak a really good English, I could do translations from English to French. - -- Jean-S?bastien Kroll-Rabotin Happy debian user ! http://www.goodbye-microsoft.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGNjV/3qwCc2aFrOYRAq27AJ0c5ogEyGUfh80uqkxnUuewSJpulwCfepOz j5v6JOSInbsHAo8g/ZcR7Gk= =l9yQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From improperintegral at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 14:34:41 2007 From: improperintegral at gmail.com (Kevin Dwyer) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:34:41 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT. In-Reply-To: <87bqh54tjz.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <87bqh54tjz.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: On 4/30/07, John Sullivan wrote: > > We're not going to debate about this particular point on this mailing list. > This campaign is about emphasizing the freedom of free software as an > alternative to Vista's restrictions, and we believe that acknowledging the > contribution the GNU project made to the operating system out of their desire > to have freedom and not just good software is a very important step in this > regard. That's fine with me; I didn't bring it up. I was "corrected." > If you disagree with us about what alternative to best promote (as we will only > be promoting fully free GNU/Linux distributions), I hope you can still work > with us on the other part of the campaign, which is to highlight the problems > with Vista that you name. We can focus and work together where we > agree---that's what I would like, anyway. For the most part, I do not care which software you promote so long as it is not Vista. As a developer of both GPL and non-GPL (have to pay the mortgage somehow) code, a user of various forms of Unix for many years, and a strong believer in civil freedom, I would like to work to put a stop to these issues which I consider morally wrong. However, it seems like many of the free software advocates on this list are not interested in tolerating less aggressive users as myself. I personally find the constant, snide slights by some people to be offensive, childish and/or naive, and detrimental to the cause. I don't bring this up because I'm so easily offended, but because it seems like a volunteer organization shouldn't be so exclusive. Obviously, John, you understand. -kpd From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Mon Apr 30 14:34:23 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:34:23 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? In-Reply-To: <50745.94786.qm@web35805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <50745.94786.qm@web35805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463636AF.70406@binaryfreedom.info> Hi Michael, some of us don't agree with ESR views and this plan he has is just another one to the list, in my opinion he is the one that corrupted OpenSource in the first place from the real meaning that Bruce Perens and him had in mind at the beginning. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1999/debian-devel-199902/msg01641.html I am very firm that we should not compromise our message if we are going to give "Free Software" as an option. and please don't turn around my words :-) I am not saying we should force people to use non-free but we definitely should not promote it even in the cases there is no option, if this is the case then we must work harder to have and option and let the user in the mean time decide for himself what to use. Cheers Chris F. BinaryFreedom Founder gNewSense developer Michael F?tsch wrote: > Morten Juhl Johansen wrote: > >> Long story short, the reason I described Ubuntu as a poor example of >> freedon is the examples mentioned - they are indeed rather willing to go >> with ESRs approach of first gaining Linux popularity, and while doing >> this promoting closed drivers for the moment. >> > > For those who haven't read it, "ESR's" masterplan is outlined here: http://catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html > > Here's some discussion and related links that I found quite interesting: http://www.libervis.com/article/ubuntu_cnr_com_and_world_domination > > Kind Regards, > M.F. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- FSF member #697 BinaryFreedom Founder gNewSense Developer. Freedom Figther. the LOLOLO. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/11a98d55/rek2.vcf From johns at fsf.org Mon Apr 30 14:35:52 2007 From: johns at fsf.org (John Sullivan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:35:52 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] [BadVista Advocacy] Slogan In-Reply-To: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> (Jacob Maynard's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:07:48 -0400 (EDT)") References: <2166.138.162.128.38.1177952868.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <87odl53e2f.fsf@spider.localnet> "Jacob Maynard" writes: > Which brought me to another thought. Do we have someone who will do the > translations for us? Truthfully, nations outside the U.S. are some of the > biggest users of GNU/Linux. We may need to think to this one. I've received a flood of translations for material on badvista actually. I've posted a few but hope to get more of them up this week. -- John Sullivan Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" From sunnzy at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 14:42:25 2007 From: sunnzy at gmail.com (Sunnz) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 04:42:25 +1000 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: <87hcqx4u73.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> <87hcqx4u73.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: You might find these one useful, it is actually DRM at work: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/juha/2105 2007/5/1, John Sullivan : > "Koh Choon Lin" writes: > > >> It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about vista > >> in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image out > >> of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky > >> distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). > > > > Maybe we can have screenshots of gNewSense and compare them with Vista > > at the website? > > I'll gladly put up images like this. Just cool gNewSense screenshots would be > nice to have. > > I'd also really like to have some screenshots of DRM errors to include in the > What's Wrong with Vista article. Can anyone collect those? > > -- > John Sullivan > Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org > 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org > Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org > > "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it > wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of > course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." > --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" > > _______________________________________________ > Advocate mailing list > Advocate at badvista.org > http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Mon Apr 30 14:44:08 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:44:08 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] My blog In-Reply-To: References: <62242.138.162.128.55.1177699666.squirrel@maynard.homelinux.com> <200704271741.58580.Don@donhensley.com> <87hcqx4u73.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <463638F8.1010606@binaryfreedom.info> Sunnz this is very good! Thanks. Sunnz wrote: > You might find these one useful, it is actually DRM at work: > http://www.geekzone.co.nz/juha/2105 > > 2007/5/1, John Sullivan : > >> "Koh Choon Lin" writes: >> >> >>>> It would be good if the bad vista site displays the bad things about vista >>>> in an 'eye catching way' in it's homepage. And to remove the geeky image out >>>> of linux for the use of beginners, maybe an introduction to non-geeky >>>> distro's would be good (SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu). >>>> >>> Maybe we can have screenshots of gNewSense and compare them with Vista >>> at the website? >>> >> I'll gladly put up images like this. Just cool gNewSense screenshots would be >> nice to have. >> >> I'd also really like to have some screenshots of DRM errors to include in the >> What's Wrong with Vista article. Can anyone collect those? >> >> -- >> John Sullivan >> Campaigns Manager | Phone: (617)542-5942 x23 | http://badvista.org >> 51 Franklin Street, 5th Fl. | Fax: (617)542-2652 | http://www.gnu.org >> Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA | GPG: AE8600B6 | http://www.fsf.org >> >> "Microsoft put all those functionality-crippling features into Vista because it >> wants to own the entertainment industry. This isn't how Microsoft spins it, of >> course. It maintains that it has no choice...It's all complete nonsense." >> --Bruce Schneier, "DRM in Windows Vista" >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Advocate mailing list >> Advocate at badvista.org >> http://badvista.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/advocate >> >> > > > -- FSF member #697 BinaryFreedom Founder gNewSense Developer. Freedom Figther. the LOLOLO. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rek2.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://badvista.fsf.org/pipermail/advocate/attachments/20070430/63df4a67/rek2.vcf From rek2 at binaryfreedom.info Mon Apr 30 14:51:08 2007 From: rek2 at binaryfreedom.info (rek2 GNU/Linux LO LO LO) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:51:08 -0400 Subject: [BadVista Advocate] Ubuntu? Well OT. In-Reply-To: <87bqh54tjz.fsf@spider.localnet> References: <87bqh54tjz.fsf@spider.localnet> Message-ID: <46363A9C.4080806@binaryfreedom.info> > If you disagree with us about what alternative to best promote (as we will only > be promoting fully free GNU/Linux distributions), I hope you can still work > with us on the other part of the campaign, which is to highlight the problems > with Vista that you name. We can focus and work together where we > agree---that's what I would like, anyway. > > John I agree, maybe we should do teams, one team can concentrate in finding reasons/facts why MS Vista is not a good option, and another team concentrating in promoting FreeSoftware as the option. hmm wait, what I mean is that we can have people dedicated in doing what they like/agree with, this way the promotion of the free option (gNewSense) can be done by people that agrees with the FreeSoftware ideals and the people that will like to help and be on board(that are welcome) to put effort on finding the Vista problems, this way we all can have some tolerance since the promotion is still done with fully free GNU/Linux distros... Chris F. -- FSF member #697 BinaryFreedom Founder gNewSense Developer. Freedom Figther. the LOLOLO. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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